Dear Brokers: Time To Change The Script!!

Um, this non-real estate broker calls bullshit on your post. Thanks for trying though, even though you aren't the sharpest knife in the draw but really!

What the hell's a 'draw'?

Sorry for poor typing, I wrote it on a notebook with a jumpy keyboard. Bottee, what do you mean and do you think tha I'm a broker? I'm serious, we have been in a serarch for about a year and the broker pitch hasn't changed.

Other boards that I post on have preview and edit features. Are they here and I'm not seeing them? After all, I'm not very sharp.

bottee--post seems quite believeable to me, given what ive seen and heard--and you provide nothing to dispute that this and worse happen regularly

so i call bullshit on you!!

I'm all for ieb's post. Many brokers are full of sh*t, and couldn't change their tired tune if they wanted to. Those brokers and the buyers who deal with them deserve each other. Like crazy 40-year marriages you could never see yourself enduring.

But there are lots of good, straightforward brokers, too. Ali R. and Tina24hour on this board, for example. And others. You just have to insist on finding them. When a broker tries to pressure me, I walk. Period. New York's a big place, and there are plenty of fish in the sea, apartment-wise.

I keep an open mind, but once a broker has flat-out LIED to me ('we have multiple offers'), then that's it. Buh-bye. There are plenty of good brokers I'd rather spend time (and money) with.

Agree completely. I wili put up with that same old line. Last weekend, I got this treatment from three brokers. One of them seemed very desperate and followed us out to the elevator and still couldn’t breakout of the script. Very creepy.

My price range is $2.5-4M and I sense that we’re two-three months away from next leg down.

Meant to say, "I will not put up with that same old line."

Let me guess this right: You do not want to use a buyers broker, and you are complaining about sellers broker's babble?

One of the main reasons to have a buyers broker is the simple reason that they are the only broker you have to deal (talk) with directly.

Either get a buyers broker, or get used to being BSed by sellers brokers...

excellent: so the reason to use a broker is so you don't have to deal with another broker? only in nyc. hi, i'm joe broker--pay me so you don't have to deal with the other yahoo. why stop with two brokers...why not 100 all of whom deal with each other?

But a buyer's broker REALLY is the seller's broker, no? In any event, I don't work with a buyer's broker anymore, but, when I did, I had seller's brokers tell me that I was hurting myself by using a buyer's broker. One asked if my broker was a friend or if there was some reason I wanted to do a favor for him by "giving" him the sale. In the end, though, I second ieb's observations. I cannot understand how it is that seller's brokers don't yet understand that they can't get away with the slimy misrepretations when a vast world of info is available on line. Some have been straight with me but many have given me bogus multiple-offer foolishness. It also seems that very few have realized the damage they do to their sellers when they price the apartment at mid-2008 prices. There still is a bizarre arrogance out there.

Riley, Damage is the correct term How much of what we have now is due to borkers misrepresentation and deception not to mention collusion with mortgage brokers and the rest. Real estate brokers, tin men, and car sales persons – what’s the difference.

I shouldn’t be so negative since I’m in sales myself but the distortion to the market and the damage done by this sort has made a significant contribution to the general mess that we’re in. Don’t get me started about how we sent our manufacturing to Asia for a quick buck, I’m as guilty as any.

wrong Riley, the buyers broker's loyalty is to the buyer. You are confusing yourself with buyers taking the advice of a seller's broker.

And you were only hurting the selling broker by bringing in your own buyers broker, not yourself. You were (would have been) helping yourself by enlisting someone who has experience and does this all day every day....

No wonder why he/she was so against it...

Jeb, that's so funny because I've had the same experience. We just started looking and the first time I called a broker for a second look she said the phone had been ringing off the hook to see this place and she was trying to get "everyone" in to see it. I looked up the history on this site & it has been on the market since mid 2007, just listed with 3 different broker houses! Wtf do they think they're kidding?

ELS man,

Smile and wish them good luck with their "hot" property. You can track it on Streeteasy as it sits unsold for the next year or so.

Ok--first of all I am a broker so just wanted to put that "admission"out there :) I like to think of myself as honest and ethical, but beyond that I certainly look at myself as a more skilled and sophisticated negotiator than someone who would insist on repeating this stale bull#%&$ over and over. Is it tiresome to listen to? Sure. But you know what? As a broker for my buyers, or for myself when making my own purchases, I look at a dumbass tone-deaf selling broker as an opportunity.As in: If this tired stale line is the best they can come up from a sales or negotiating perspective, that tells me that I--as someone who is NOT a dumbass and is, in fact, an adept and nuanced negotiator-- completely have the upper hand and will very possibly come off better than were I to go toe to toe with someone similarly (or more :) ) sophisticated, smart and skilled. So why not look at it as an opportunity? A point of view that can better benefit you than complaining on an anonymous forum?

nyg, So your argument is that I will put up with BS because my superior negotiating skills will translate to some advantageous position and I will totally crush the opposition!

Don’t think so & please don’t waste my time by insulting my intelligence.. I would rather deal with someone that is aware enough to recognize exactly where the market is at and adjust how they present the offering.

As soon as I hear that there are multiple offers, see you later.

ieb: Well presumably you are looking for an apartment--one that you love and at a price you feel is right?I just feel that allowing oneself to be turned off to the point of not considering any apartment where the broker is an idiot is shortchanging oneself and narrowing ones options. Especially since you seem to be finding this to be the case more often than not--isn't that a bit limiting?

notice to all brokers - get real, don't waste our time, do your job!!!

Here are some of the lies I have heard told repeatedly to multiple buyers at a sales office:

there is a backup contract
overstating the % sold
understating the number of "investors"
saying no investor was allowed to buy more than one unit
lying about amenities and surrounding developments
lying about the number of closings happening and the number of people who have moved in
lying to new buyers about how many in contract have "walked"

Some of these brokers are so young they have never seen a market like this and don't know that this is illegal. I am constantly amazed by the lengths some will go to "close the deal". It's just a matter of time before this catches up to them.

I'm going to continue to call bullshit on this. Basically because of the two immediately proceeding posts.

The one from ieb, "notice to all brokers - get real, don't waste our time, do your job!!!"
was that posted by a 15 year old or someone buying a $2.5-$4MM apartment.

And nyg is correct on the logic, which is basically this ass-backwards.
I'm in the market for an apartment $2.5-$4MM. So I've either achieved some success in life or I inherited it and have always been familiar with the better things in life.
I found this $2.5-$4MM apartment that I could see me and my family moving into. I think its a bit overpriced, but I'm no novice, after all, I'm successful in life or I inherited my money and the rich are good at keeping their money. But anyway, this could fit my family - location, layout, size, etc. etc. I ask the broker, about the apartment, and immediately he or she says something, so I just walk away. I don't try to negotiate, I don't try to demonstrate my wit or negotiating strength. I'm just so offended by this line that several others have used, that I walk away from the apartment that otherwise would have worked for me and I could have likely negotiated given how soft the market is.

ieb's lesson: If only you hire a smart and skilled broker, then there is no need to have a fair price, just don't use trite lines and I'll buy it because all of the other properties in this price range are represented by loser brokers who turn me off from what would otherwise be a great place for me.

...
UBottom, JKB - great call, you guys really are the smartest knife in the draw "but really"

streeteasyaddict--most of these lies you mention are serious LIES in capital letters. In other words these are lies that can actually injure the buyer. These are lies that are misrepresenting pivotal aspects of the deal. Lies about "lots of offers pouring in" should not injure the buyer in any way, because I don't think that should factor into the buyer's decision making process, offer, or negotiating strategy. I am not saying such behavior is ethical or desirable, I am just saying it shouldn't be that important, because it shouldn't inform one's behavior or decision, and certainly should be viewed in a different category from "don't worry-that building across the street has sold their air rights!".

"Draw" is what you do with crayons and paper. A "drawer" is where you keep your knives!

Bottee and nyg, you're misreading ieb's original post and creating a paper tiger to make your lame, pro-broker points.

Ieb was talking about brokers who won't negotiate, who simply delay and obfuscate in the hopes that you'll panic and hit the 'buy' button. Walking away from an idiot like that leaves you time and energy to deal with the many properties where you can deal with an honest broker.

You're right - I'm sure you can sometimes get a good deal from a dishonest broker, but there are plenty of situations where you'd be wasting your time. Maybe you missed this part of the playbook, but part of successful negotiating is knowing when to walk away because you're banging your head against a brick wall.

Bottee's lesson: "Always keep banging. This might be YOUR lucky brick wall!"

You are right, JKB, after all, I'm not the sharpest knife in the draw. (ynotie29 - thanks, but see the original post).

Don't want to be running into brick walls. Just imagine,
1 - About once a month we put together a list of apts to view.
2 - Without fail
3 - if we express any interest
4 - they universally say

wow, every single apartment currently on the market that otherwise meets the $2.5-$4MM purchase price criteria and any other apartment requirements by this 15 year old, sorry, I mean mature experienced buyer, is represented by an idiot broker who uses the same tired lines and strategies. Wow, I guess that is as frustrating as being in a brick-walled room with no doors.

just a reincarnation of the violence inducing Admiral and DwaynePipe

the discussion is moot esp to buyers/sellers who have correctly realized that brokers work exclusively for themselves--they want done deals--at any price--the bid/ask and negotiated variation in price means little to brokers who get 2-3% of the face price of the deal--their busieness is to do deals, not to lose deals in the interest of properly representing people---

like so much in life these days:

BE YOUR OWN ADVOCATE, OR BE STOLEN FROM

whether buying a car a stock or real estate, never listen to salesmen--educate yourself sufficiently to make proper judgements for yourself

if you base your re market behavior on anything that comes from a broker, you are a fooooooool

and it is amusing to hear the latest variations on "buy it now or else..."

try Jasonkyle

I am in agreement with you there Ubottom.

nyg, "I don't think that should factor into the buyer's decision making process, offer, or negotiating strategy. I am not saying such behavior is ethical or desirable, I am just saying it shouldn't be that important". This is exactly the problem. Very poor condescending attitude that turns buyers off and the fact that you condone this approach reaffirms what I said earlier.

And bottee, sorry but if I have criteria that hasn't been met, that's my business.

nyg & bottee: yep, you're completely missing it.

1. before you find that "$2.5-$4MM apartment that I could see me and my family moving into" you have to endure looking at many places that are often if not always misrepresented by the broker. it is a time consuming, mind numbing emotional wrenching experience to be told over and over that what you want doesn't exist and be treated as though you have three heads just for asking.

2. before you find that "$2.5-$4MM apartment that I could see me and my family moving into" you probably have bought and sold some less expensive properties along the way as you worked your way up financially in life. each time, having that same mind numbing soul deadening experience of being told that you are basically an ignorant idiot.

3. as a broker you would do much better to acknowledge the widespread shortcomings of most of your so called profession. any real sales professional will tell you how important it is to gain an understanding of your potential customers negative touchpoints and work on countering them but not with statements like:

Lies about "lots of offers pouring in" should not injure the buyer in any way, because I don't think that should factor into the buyer's decision making process, offer, or negotiating strategy. I am not saying such behavior is ethical or desirable, I am just saying it shouldn't be that important, because it shouldn't inform one's behavior or decision, and certainly should be viewed in a different category from "don't worry-that building across the street has sold their air rights!".

Lies are lies and not part of any real sales process.

columbiacounty,

Lies are lies, and I'm with you, and I have trouble understanding that people do anything other than what Ubottom suggests in his more recent post.

But, remember, these are apartments in which the poster expressed interest and made or was near to making an offer on. So while I'm in sync with you that buying isn't easy, these are apartments that are not in the PRE "I could see me and my family moving into" stage. But several after that conclusion has been reached.

And really, all of these apartments in which the poster expressed interest, each and every one of them had an idiot broker who said nearly the same thing? Each and every one of them was non-negotiable _in this market_?? You don't find that hard to believe?

And you don't find it hard to believe that this poster who posts like a teenager isn't real?

i see your point.

the sad thing is that my experience of brokers (with one exception) has been uniformly horrible. even the ones that i know socially through their spouse (and am very, very careful about what i say) tend to maintain a moronic patter that based on the last 6-12 months has been inconceivable to me.

Bottee, I think cc is saying EXACTLY what you have such a hard time believing -- that if you show interest in 10 properties, you could feasibly find 10 brokers who would try this tired tactic. And that ultimately is what this particular post is about.

Maybe only 8 would try to b.s. you, maybe only 5, but the fact that ANY broker would is a problem. And not just a problem of them being deceitful, but a problem of them being foolish.

If you have a serious buyer interested in a property, you might want to be honest and negotiate in good faith, particularly in this market. If you don't, you're likely to turn off a good number of buyers. Dumb, yes. Hard to believe? Depends on where you're standing, I guess.

Maybe it's a character issue, maybe it's just an issue of the ever-hopeful nature of sales personalities, but there are still a LOT of brokers out there (or the sellers behind them) who are still living in 2007.

As for the credibility of the OP's identity -- well, I don't know. Lots of wealthy people aren't gifted verbally or typing-wise -- maybe the OP is really George W. Bush. The point is valid, regardless. The game has changed in NYC, and smart brokers should wake up to that reality (and, again, I don't mean to impugn all brokers -- I believe there are many honest ones out there)

ok fine JKB, I'm not arguing with your points. I called bullshit on the reality of the original poster's posting. If YOU wanted to start a discussion topic with everything you just said, be my guest. But to shroud it in some obviously false story to buttress your point - why? Isn't that the same poor deceitful activity that you are accusing the general brokerage community of?

1) Most brokers are "one trick ponies" - they found one thing which works for them and that's what they use no matter what apartment, situation, etc.

2) The buyers of yesteryear created the monster brokers of today: like children of today spoiled by their parents into thinking they are entitled to anything, they behave badly because they engage in bad behaviour and rather than being punished for it, they get rewarded for it. Simply looking at the numbers, the majority of brokers currently in business came into this field during the past boom when "selling" involved holding an open house and saying "you better bid now because.....". And buyers went along with it because they "knew' that RE only goes up and they were going to "make a fortune" no matter what piece of crap they were buying at whatever price they were buying it at. So now, after years of buyers "training" brokers that they should act the way they are acting now, we expect them to instantly change their behaviour which has been rewarded for over a decade? Not likely. Today's buyers get stuck with the behaviour yesterday's buyers trained the brokers to engage in.

3) The frenzy of buying over the last decade "trained" brokers that they really didn't have to know crap about anything: the financials of the buildings they were selling in, Real Estate principles in general, etc, etd, etc. We now have the UAW of brokership (I hope that's a reference people get). Example: look at how many use the term Condo-Op and really think it's what a Cond-op is, as opposed to those who know what it really means and that they are using a term which has been misused so often it's become accepted as an alternate use.

bottee,don't know what your problem is but get over it. This thread must have struck a nerve with you, wonder why?

You can see from most other responses that what I have proposed is what what many feel. Any successful sales person knows that taking the side of the buyer is what you want to do. Nyc brokers are totally wacked to think that it's same olde game.

And why do you take such a strong position supporting unproducdtive and destructive behavior? Can't break out of the mold?

I will say that I am disappointed at the total lack of objectivity exhibited in this thread to the possibility that ANY broker could know enough to be of assistance to any buyer.

"Nyc brokers are totally wacked to think that it's same olde game."

I think you keep proving my case that you are a fraud. But, then perhaps if you were one of the sharper knives "in the draw" you might have just admitted it and not re-incarneted yourself as
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/12940-non-responsive-brokers-and-mgmt-companies

huh?

Hey 30yrs, just for the record - I think I've said TWICE on this thread that there are good brokers out there who can be helpful (so the lack of objectivity isn't quite "total").

My criticisms are aimed only at shysters looking for suckers.

Sorry, I meant total lack of objectivity as a measure of the amount of objectivity of the posters making the statements, not the total number of posters lacking objectivity.