What to Believe

Hi Saghead. Very interesting, same situation happened to me with a house in Sag harbor about a month ago, and the house is still showing up as available. There have been a couple of houses that we have been following in the last few months and it seems to me that not much is moving. The only sales that seem to be happening are when sellers become more realistic about the state of the market and drop prices 15-20% from the ask and then take another 10% off from that.
My sense is that because there are a lot of people window shopping, agents and sellers believe the mkt. has bounced back. With the state of the economy, I believe that there are more people looking to sell, than looking to buy second homes, and that makes for a buyers market.
Once the summer is over and all of the renters who are doing the window shopping are gone you will see a different picture, and you will probably get your Sag harbor house for 25% off of the ask. My advice is to trust your own instincts.

I think that if you raise your offer you're as stupid as the seller. I would restate my offer & give them 72 hours to accept or decline or the offer is off the table. There are PLENTY of houses out there.

That "your agent" didn't insist on a time frame for a response is typical out there. Make sure that they represent you, and not the seller (did you sign the disclosure stating their position?)- I ask only because, with fiduciary to you and your best interest required, this shouldn't be happening.
Get another agent, and find another house. Just an opinion, but I agree- there's enough out there not to be left wondering and hanging, due to incompetence. It may sound harsh, but being forced into a limbo position is not something that you have to tolerate. Best to you.

Trust No one..The soaring inventory will eventually cause a cascade of price Chops..Lets see if buyers rule the day then...Remember what happened in Florida,California Arizona etc..when those markets went upside down!!

Question's for Eastendagent?
I had been working with an agent for a while looking to purchase a home, and almost made a deal on a house purchase. At the last minute she sent me one of these disclosure forms which listed her as representing the seller. Although I was uncomfortable with signing it, since she had been representing me as a buyer, she told me it was just a formality and it needed to be done that way.
The deal never happened, and since then we have severed our relationship. She never explained why the disclosure statement read the way it did. Any ideas on your end?
Also, if I revisit any of the properties I had seen with her in the past am I obligated to involve her in any offers I might make?
Any advice appreciated.

I am not a broker but - with regard to properties you saw with her her - I believe there is some time limit (3 months, I think) that is standard practice. I have no clue about that other contract she asked you to sign but I find it weird - was she the listing broker? That seems like an easy thing to find out - was the property listed on her page?

lynchmiket, what you encountered is highly unethical, period. The New York Dept of State (nydos) requires that the form that you signed be explained at FIRST SUBSTANTIVE CONTACT, so that you know out of the gate whether or not your interests are being represented, and can make choices accordingly. This is LAW, not a simple "formality"- if your agent is collecting information from you throughout your search, she is obligated to share any edge that you provide (such as, "we'd go a little higher, but let's offer this amount and see what happens") with the seller.
This behavior is hugely detrimental to you, and frankly, I'd report it to the NYDOS. It's also required that you receive a copy- at the top, it has the "first substantive contact" verbiage. To us, "first substantive" is the minute you tell us that you're looking for a house- we usually email the disclosure before even meeting a client, so that they're crystal clear. The disclosure is intended to protect consumers.
It isn't OK for ANY agent to ignore a law designed to protect consumers, and I'm glad that you didn't locate a property in which anything that you shared is required, per the disclosure, to be provided to the seller (see the fiduciary verbiage under "seller agency"). Very underhanded, and potentially costly for buyers. This sort of thing infuriates me- sorry if you sense a bit of vitriol. A house purchase isn't something to be taken lightly by "your" agent (who never was).
A suggestion: "your" agent broke the law in the timing of the disclosure. Let her broker know that you won't be using her services for this reason, irrespective of the property that you decide upon.

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lcns/realestate/pdfs/1736.pdf

Above is the REQUIRED AT FIRST SUBTANTIVE CONTACT TO ANY HOME BUYER/SELLER IN NEW YORK STATE disclosure- not negotiable, and clearly states, "not a contract". If it doesn't link, google new york state real estate agency disclosure statement- anyone who hasn't received it prior to a home search is likely working with an agent that is breaking the law. It's sole purpose it to clarify for you exactly who the person that is helping you represents, so that you can make an educated decision.

And a last quick apology: the first substantive contact can be found on the DOS site, not the form itself.

To Eastendagent. Thanks for the info. You have been a huge help.
Also. What is my obligation to this agent, should I re-visit any of the properties that I have seen with her?
Thanks again for your guidance.

Lynchmiket and SagHead should be advised to pay up if you really like the house you find. The market in Sag Harbor is unique and good homes are hard to find. I live in Sag and am a broker. If you submitted a bid and there is a higher offer, chances are you will lose out unless you come up in price and ultimately you will wind up paying more for a less substancial house. The market is down but prices have been reflecting that now for 6 months. Good luck.

lynchmiket, the agent that you were working with broke the law, with the agency disclosure provided WELL after you offered info that you weren't clear would be shared with a seller (per her status as a seller's agent- not "selling" agent). That should be enough to clear the path for any issues- fines for that stuff aren't going to be welcomed by her broker. I'd call her broker, explain that you feel (and were) mislead, and let the broker know that you will not be compensating this agent regardless of whether or not your property includes those which you might have seen. Let your new agent know of the circumstances so that everyone is crystal clear (what a concept). Until buyers push the issue, people like you are going to continue to be mislead- I'm just sorry, in 2009, that it's so prevalent out there, but it can be. Also, discuss it with your real estate atty- they should provide an answer that works for you (provided that THEY are clear)!
The buyers agent that you hire will provide you with a valuation on the house that you find, so that you know whether it's in line with the current market, or overpriced, so that you can bid accordingly- they have "fiduciary" to YOU. With all indications that there won't be an increase in pricing any time soon, the ball is in the buyer's court.

Hey christopherburnside, fearmonger much? Jeez... your rap sounds sooo 2006! People are now wise to the broker cliches, so please spare us on SE. There is nothing special about the Sag Harbor market and there are no bidding wars, so please give it a rest.

One last thought to lynchmiket: if "procuring cause" is thrown at you, know this- "procuring cause" is valid if there is an unbroken chain of events that lead to a purchase. In your case, the chain was broken when the disclosure was an issue/you stopped working with the agent. In order to formally "break" the chain, the suggestion of a call to the broker should finalize it (although it's already a "broken chain" at this point). Good luck, and may the second time around be more productive!

Right ON Heiji !! Foreclosures and price chops accelerating throughout Suffolk county..Manhattan prices falling big in Q2 ..What chrisb talkin about??

burnside's act is sooooo burnt....toast!

came across this article which i thought relevant to the conversation:

http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/107458/high-end-homes-frozen-out-of-budding-housing-rebound.html?mod=realestate-buy

anyone notice some brokers playing ping pong with pricing? if the stock market goes up, they raise the price, if it comes down, they lower it. as long as i see price increases on streeteasy, i know that sellers / brokers are still living in the past - thinking that potential buyers like myself are complete idiots. i am in no rush...

The standard and accepted practice for Real Estate in the East End is that agents are working for the seller (agent's client) and that the fiduciary resposibility is to the seller/client, NOT the buyer known as the agent's customer. However,UNLESS the Disclosure states differently and it is agreed upon in advance with the agent and buyer (customer), the fiduciary responsibility can be switched to the buyer if in fact the agent is acting as a buyer's agent and representative. In either case, a Disclosure form should be presented and explained to the buyer (customer) and be signed by the buyer at first contact with the agent. The agent's role should be made clear in the beginning to all parties involved.

Some very Interesting Data:

The Long Island Real Estate Report Stats/Trends area.
July 21, 2009 | by The Long Island Real Estate Report

Second Quarter Median Price Rise – by Township

In last week’s post, we reported that the 2nd quarter rise in the median price of private homes and condos was greater than any 2nd quarter increase in the past 5 years. With another week’s worth of closings recorded and published, the percent of increase in the median price is holding steady, with a slight increase in the Nassau County figures.

The tables below list the percentage of change in the median price for all long Island townships, from the 1st to 2nd quarter of 2009, as well as the median sale price for each township.

TOWNSHIP CHANGE:
Hempstead 0.00%
North Hempstead 7.69%
Oyster Bay 2.84%
Babylon 1.92%
Brookhaven 5.69%
East Hampton 20.79%
Huntington 5.27%
Islip -0.80%
Riverhead -5.41%
Shelter Island -37.10%
Smithtown 7.23%
Southampton 25.49%
Southold 2.80%
Nassau 0.63%
Suffolk 6.06%
Long Island 3.29%

TOWNSHIP MEDIAN:
Hempstead 375,000
North Hempstead 560,000
Oyster Bay 435,000
Babylon 318,000
Brookhaven 290,640
East Hampton 806,250
Huntington 489,500
Islip 312,200
Riverhead 350,000
Shelter Island 780,000
Smithtown 445,000
Southampton 800,000
Southold 411,500
Nassau 407,035
Suffolk 350,000
Long Island 382,188

Long Island Home Sales Median Price Rises by 3.29% in Second Quarter

A rise in the median price is typical in the 2nd quarter; however, this year’s increase is higher than any 2nd quarter increase in the past 5 years.

For example, the 2006 increase was 1.01%, whereas the 2009
increase is 3.29%.

The Long Island median price increase of 3.29% is driven almost completely by Suffolk County’s INCREASE of 6.06%. Nassau County shows a minimal increase of 0.12%.

The median price in Suffolk County rose from $330,000 to $350,000, in Nassau County from $404,500 to $405,000, and on Long Island from $370,000 to $382,188.

Statistical noise .. CHOPS coming... Look at trulia.com See 100k chops !!

It's interesting (and true) that a "standard and accepted" practice persists that is detrimental to both buyers and sellers- buyers aren't told soon enough that "their" agent isn't, and sellers have no idea that when hiring a selling Realtor to bring that buyer, they are put into a situation of assuming vicarious liability, should the selling Realtor misinform the buyer. The buyer can sue the seller for the actions of the agent that they thought was their own; the seller picks up the tab.
Broker agency puts the listing company in the hotseat for liability, which makes them what...foolish? Better for all to encourage buyer agency- both parties represented, with their own go-to should things go awry. It's certainly a bit of a mess there.
Sellers are paying for a selling agent, anyway- make it the agency choice that won't cost them down the road!

As a Southampton Principal Broker for close to 30 years, having worked through all types of markets, I would be happy to discuss anyone's concerns. Joan~ 631 283-1133

Ok Seaside...HOW Many homes in Southampton to go LISPEN by end of 2009 !!!!

Sunclaus, can anyone play? I guess a total 2009 LP for Southampton will be 96; total for E. Hampton will be 108. Y-T-D for those towns are S:65; EH: 78, based on what we've collected. They seem to be accelerating, and absent a moratorium (as we experienced early in the year), aren't going to slow down any time soon (opinion only, of course).

Ok Thanks...So lets see..7000 UNSOLD South Fork homes...10000 unrented homes ...Hundreds to go lispen...Prices falling..YOU think it time to CHOP ?///

Chop chop, or the bank will do it when they list the house that has been foreclosed on- and that house will be the new "comp" for any neighboring houses...and so it goes.

We don't know what to believe either. We looked at a bunch of houses a couple of weeks ago and there seemed to be a lot of inventory for the asking prices. We found one place we really liked and wanted to make a low offer (about 45% off asking) but sort of chickened out as the broker went on and on about how busy she is and how everything is selling now. She didn't even follow up with us. How busy can she be?? Don't they need the business? We are very confused....

Wait it out. This winter will be a disaster. Lots of summer renters re-upped for summer 2009 right after summer 2008 before rents took a huge hit post-lehman so rents still haven't found a floor. Once owners realize rent will cover less than half their carrying costs and the market isn't rebounding there will be a flood of massive price chops. And if equities sell off over the next six months as I expect it will get really interesting.

Don't fall for that total BS. There is more inventory out east than ever before. Walk away and they will chase you.