Food Stamp Abuse- disgusting!

nycrobot,

i'm a bleeding heart liberal white who is dating someone black. there is a food pantry on my block--in the west village, by the way--and it doesn't bother me at all. i didn't 'vote for a black man.' i voted for the best person for the job.

what the hell are you talking about?

food stamps are highly regulated and not very generous, so the story you are telling is somewhat less than believable. every government program has some degree of fraud--in fact, every facet of our society has some degree of fraud. fraud should be cleaned up. but the fact that there is some fraud out there says nothing about the underlying value of the program.

basically, you object to a program that gives poor people the ability to buy a minimally sufficient amount of food. it's not an expensive program, it's not a large program. without food, you die. and you think that people in our country should be left to starve? charming.

hey saraj, somebody with less spying skills than you that cannot hire a full time assistant (but need an "informal" one from time to time) would have asked them how much would they charge per hour.

reminds me of a book on the cash economy i was reading the other day. comparing different attitudes across different countries. it said that everybody thought in australia that those involved in the cash economy were predominantly young male immigrants. wrong! it cut across all races, incomes and ages. fun read (for an econ nerd like myself).

"Quit crying over freaking pennies and look at the real dollars that have gone out of the door..."

wow! please run for office, you have my vote.

One time, I had a patient come in to my office looking to buy a property upstairs for close to $1mil. They asked my receptionist if we took MEDICAID. They drove away in Mercedes E350. I had their name and forwarded to the appropriate dept, the exact response from the dept was "Sorry, this is not my job, What do you want me to do?"

the pantry's ability to give depends a lot on private donations. scary given that they highly correlate with the biz cycle. having people well fed is sound public policy imho. how are kids gonna learn if they are not? how are teenagers not gonna be angry? and so on...

One time, I had a patient come in to my office looking to buy a property upstairs for close to $1mil. They asked my receptionist if we took MEDICAID. They drove away in Mercedes E350. I had their name and forwarded to the appropriate dept, the exact response from the dept was "Sorry, this is not my job, What do you want me to do?"

-----------

a blog dedicated to exhibit fraud on food stamps and medicaid? ... well well... better not to give scary ideas. there's plenty of willing vigilantes out there.

it's the chinese who prevented me from achieving anything!!!

admissions quotas enforced at the best colleges in the US currently discriminate AGAINST asians in favor of caucasions and other ethnicities--asians are such better students than us caucasians that, if the playing field were level, and if this process were based solely on merit, there'd be a whole lot fewer caucasians at the best schools--and many more asians

you keep scapegoating the asians...you'll feel much better about your failure

"Admin: hey saraj, somebody with less spying skills than you that cannot hire a full time assistant (but need an "informal" one from time to time) would have asked them how much would they charge per hour."

It's not proactively spying. It's what I observe on a regular basis, compounded by similar complaints from neighbors, often backed up by building management. As far as temp workers, I do hire from time to time. The good ones, though, are usually unavailable or graduate to full time employment. Which I applaud btw - taking the necessary steps to secure gainful employment and a regular paycheck.

some areas are reporting extreme shortfalls in food pantry supplies. more and more "middle-class-looking-people" with all that that implies are turning to free sources of provisions to get by. so focus on the few who offend you with their supposed fraud, and ignore the larger issues of inadequate food being available to increasing numbers of people.

mhamilton, you and cc make the same and valid point. maybe those who are redistributing at the top are doing so from a position of perceived power, while those who make their sad attempts at the bottom are viewed as vile because they are relatively powerless.

The biggest social welfare programs are social security and healthcare for the elderly.

"The biggest social welfare programs are social security and healthcare for the elderly."

more ponzi schemes than "social welfare". after that tragedy comes unfunded public pension liabilities (that also include healthcare). old people in this country have a tough time convincing me that they don't hate kids.

aboutready: I think that is part of the problem in terms of who is perceived as in power and deserving ...I also believe that there is a racial element involved (whether it involves blacks, Asians, Latinos...)...There is about 40 years of social science research that indicates that when whites hear about social services programs, social welfare, etc., the image in their mind is that of some perceived benefit to non-whites...I think you see a lot of this in the reaction over health care reform (combine the perception of illegal immigrants and "lazy" blacks with a social program led by a black president...whew, I can see some real head spinning).

As a society, we need to get away from this myopic (and incorrect) thinking. The facts are clear: In raw numbers, the majority of poor people are white! Although I am African-American, I could care less about the color of someone's skin. I think that everyone should be entitled to food, shelter and medical care. At the same time, I am really tired of this b.s. thinking about someone "gaming" welfare or medicaid or some other public program...Just look at the financial industry if you want to see undeserving recipients of public aid!!!!!

wait..that our banking status quo remain is much more critical than feeding our poor...especially if some percentage of that food gets to some that aren't really poor

aboutready
about 22 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse If she spoke english would it make her surf and turf consumption better? or was that just a throwaway comment for fun and emphasis?

No, the OP is saying that the person is either not a U.S. citizen, or Green Card holder, or appropriately assimilated.

When my grandparents came over, they learned English. In fact, my grandfather became a U.S. citizen by fighting in World War II. And then my grandmother earned her citizen as a result. Contrast that with today's freeloaders.

NYCROBOT - forget about the sirloin. try chicken breast roasted with olive oil, sea salt, rosemary, and a little paprika. much healthier for you.

"appropriately assimilated." yes, from standing in the grocery store checkout aisle the OP knows everything about this person. how long she's been here. whether she knows english but wasn't using it. whether or not she is a citizen or green card holder. it's amazing what you can learn by standing next to someone in a grocery store line, particularly if you're feeling hostile and not engaging them in discourse.

give me an f'n break. my best friend in college was born on the boat over from italy, literally, and her father was a well-respected doctor in a university town. to this day her mother's english is quite poor, in a grocery line you might not think she can speak it at all, and they are hardly freeloaders. i have another college friend, similar story, father and brothers started successful retail chain in NYC, mom still speaks Japanese and very little English. Both of these families pay quite a bit in taxes.

and in a few years you may get a better job with your chinese or spanish than with your english. hell, you might now.

during respectable recessions one should be able to go long on xenophobia (there should be an instrument like that, at least it compensates us from having to stand it)... ok ok, money is not everything...

Just to clarify: I know the food stamp lady spoke no English because the cashier attempted to converse with her in English about how to swipe her food stamp card and she didn't understand. The cashier then prompted her in Spanish and she complied. She then thanked the cashier in spanish.

I don't know if she was an illegal using someone else's card, or if she was a citizen using her own card. Either way, no argument made here over the past day has changed my mind that she is a bloodsucker who is wasting MY money on expensive food.

Yes there are many examples of waste and fraud in many public assistance programs. And yes, corporate fat cats exploit the system in different ways. I don't forgive them just because they're rich. I think they are vile all the same. I also don't think we should look the other way just because it's a relatively small amount that people get in food stamps each month. Trickles add up to floods.

I like people who work hard and earn what they have. I respect that. I respect people who come to this country and learn our language and are embarassed to accept handouts and shun them. And before you label me a racist....I would dislike a white person who came here and freeloaded and didn't learn our language.

Black, white, yellow, red, purple or pink - I could care less. I have contempt for anyone who abuses the system. It just so happens that yes, the abusers I speak of are all non-English-speaking Chinese. Maybe they've just got tons of nice gifts from Santa, but I doubt it. If I ever encounter a similar situation with whites, blacks, hispanics, horses or kittens I would not feel differently.

Ubottom
about 12 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse

actually, asians, as an ethnic group, have the highest per capita income of all here in this fine melting pot we call home (USA)--my asian friends and colleagues are industrious loyal and honest--and they speak english quite well--these are people who have embraced the american dream and, in spite of serious disadvantage, are living it---heartens me as an american

saraj im gettin the stench of bigot offa you

From reading some of these I think there's more hatred for the persons who "scam" food stamps than an orchestrator of a pyramid scheme.

Riversider: get real - Madoff is several orders of magnitude more repugnant than any food stamp-abusing cockroach out there.

"And before you label me a racist....I would dislike a white person who came here and freeloaded and didn't learn our language."

and how much more or less likely would you be to label such a person based on casual observation? racist.

Riversider: get real - Madoff is several orders of magnitude more repugnant than any food stamp-abusing cockroach out there.

Actually Bernie Madoff ran a Ponzi scheme, not a pyramid scheme.

I say AMEN to all of the people exposing this behavior. And to aboutreadies and such, you'll have an excuse for everyone. Interesting that the two examples you shown are not of people living on the taxpayer dime, but in fact the contrary. Perhaps you were subconsciously trying to make the opposite point.

"food stamp=abusing cockroach."

that tells us just about all we need to know. saraj 'just happens' to only focus her ire on chinese immigrants. nycrobot insists he would be JUST as furious at a 'white person' who refused to 'learn our language' or shun 'handouts.' my particular favorite is the insistence that this woman in the grocery line--who he knows almost nothing about--is misusing 'MY money.'

Do you people understand nothing about our political system? This is a democracy. We collectively determine how the tax burden should be divided up, and the money that is collected in taxes belongs to the collective, no to any individual. It isn't your money at all--it belongs to the society.

Now, I agree that fraud should be exposed. I have seen absolutely no evidence here that anyone mentioned was engaging in fraud, but if they were, then that's wrong. But the existence of fraud does nothing to devalue the program. When a hedge fund manager commits a fraud does that mean we should get rid of the entire hedge fund industry? Does it mean hedge funds are worthless? No: we need government regulation and enforcement to keep fraud and abuse low.

It is obvious to me that Saraj, NYCROBOT, and others don't care so much about the fraud, but rather object to the program itself. NYCROBOT believes that everyone should 'shun handouts.' I wonder if he does this himself. Does he send his kids to public school? Call the police when someone breaks into his home? Take a bike ride through Riverside Park? Claim tax deductions? Use running water? All of these require 'government handouts.'

As for myself: if my children were hungry and I had no money for food, I would use food stamps in a second. In fact, it would be criminal child abuse to let your children starve because you were too proud to use food stamps.

Does he send his kids to public school? Call the police when someone breaks into his home? Take a bike ride through Riverside Park? Claim tax deductions? Use running water? All of these require 'government handouts.'

No, there's a big difference between a public good and a handout payment.

there is? what's the difference?

food stamps ARE a public good. they are a form of 'calorie insurance' that allows all of us to rest assured that our children won't starve no matter what. they reduce the pressure on the healthcare system by keeping children fed. taking advantage of the public school system--which, by your logic costs ME over $8,000 per year per child, is an enormous burden on ME.

There's a difference between a public good and a handout payment. If you don't want to understand the distinction simply because you want to make a point, then I'm not going to succeed "trying" to explain it to you.

Bye.
I'm late for my train.

What the OP still fails to "prove" is that the person using the food stamps really did anything wrong. He knows nothing about her, has made vast generalisations and claims "his" money is the one being wasted on someone - all rubbish.

So what she spent it on steak and shrimp, is not entitled to eat something decent? Clearly they both shop in the same store so it's hardly a stretch to say it was a gourmet or expensive grocery store. The products may have been on sale and less expensive than other items.... of course he didn't bother to state that - too busy letting his envy and biggoted ways stand in the way of facts.

riggerT, what i was responding to were the comments regarding assimilation and language. i fully intended to make the point i made, which is that only assholes make assumptions about people and their circumstances.

"Bye.
I'm late for my train."

Please enjoy the public transportation in blissful ignorance, riggerT.

You did not read my original statement Happyrenter. I am absolutely for the program when people work hard and do their best - but still can't reach living wages in NYC. I cited two examples of neighbors who are in the low-income category who should be tremendously applauded for the burdens they deal with or the good work that they do. Unfortunately people like them are not in the majority of the low-incomes in this particular case. You are losing sight of the point. I have no objections when my tax payments include assistance to those in TRUE need. When one chooses not to work on the books, (or purchases a $350 Blackberry) while getting an 80% discount on their rent - it just ain't right. I am all for the program when it is allotted to people who are making honest efforts to pull themselves by their own bootstraps. It's not about the program, it's about the oversight of the program.

HAPPYRENTER: It is obvious to me that Saraj, NYCROBOT, and others don't care so much about the fraud, but rather object to the program itself.

this is what is disgusting. and i'd bet that the felons look perfectly acceptable, you'd never begrudge them their blackberries, and you'd think nothing of it if they ate filet mignon and lobster every evening. hard working members of our business community contributing to society, speaking fluent english, complete with papers and other signs of inclusion.

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/08/widespread-fraud-option-backdating-exec-felonies/

As long as there is any "system", there are people who would try to circumvent it.

How about the tax system? The Rich consistently pay less because they have an army of accountants to figure it out. And rent control? I have a neighbor paying rediculously low rent and don't even live here. He keeps the apt only as vacation home for himself and rent it out from time to time.

Social benefit is an integral part of a functioning society. To avoid abuse in the system, the only thing you can improve is the enforcement. Call you local representative.

saraj: "When one chooses not to work on the books, (or purchases a $350 Blackberry) while getting an 80% discount on their rent - it just ain't right."

Again - assumptions - who pays full price for a BB? They are given free or cost minimally when taken with a plan - so does an iPhone btw..... Please enuff generalisations and more facts.

And they become discardable after a year or two.

"saraj: "When one chooses not to work on the books, (or purchases a $350 Blackberry) while getting an 80% discount on their rent - it just ain't right."

Again - assumptions - who pays full price for a BB? They are given free or cost minimally when taken with a plan - so does an iPhone btw..... Please enuff generalisations and more facts."

saraj, you need to have more SEX!

she can't - she's busy working or talking to doorman! :-)

Or trying to play pool in the basement rec room. In Engrish.

I am very amused by people who think that the police or the city parks or running water are government handouts equivalent to food stamps. they aren't handouts when they are paid for by our taxes! I am going to go out on a limb and say that there isn't one person who gets food stamps who pays a single cent in income taxes. Anyone care to show how I would be wrong in saying that? Therefor, not only are the bloodsuckers not paying taxes, they are getting free extras at the same time.

I also think anyone who says they wouldn't be upset by someone getting 80% off their rent to live in the same building as they do paying 100% of the rent is either an idiot, or lying.

Go farther out on the limb. A little more. A bit more. Keep going.

Nothing is a handout when paid for by our taxes (exclamation point). That's the whole point. They are OUR taxes, no longer your personal horde. Jane Fonda can't refuse to pay for the military, and you can't refuse to pay for programs that reduce the risk of massive health problems or social unrest.

What I don't understand is why anyone would pay five times as much to live in the same building as someone else. Who's the idiot? And why is he living there? He must think it's a good deal.

I sure wish i could be poor enough to not pay taxes and qualify for food stamps. That would be a-one. It would be even better if i were unemployed due to the recession, because i'd just love to find myself without a job and able to get food stamps. I'm sure i could be a top-class bloodsucker, if only i were poor enough.

NYCROBOT - I guess your answer is simple - lose your job and get inline for "free" housing and steak and shrimps.

Good thing Obama is giving health care upon verification of US citizenship. He found a way to fund our healthcare and all these food stamps and benefits. Hell, we may even have surplus from plugging these leaks to the illegals.

Anyone who equates an educated (possibly college educated) tax-paying, English-speaking individual working in a decent job who suddenly loses his job and falls down on his luck and requires food stamps with the rabble who never worked on the books, never paid taxes ever, never learned a lick of English who get to collect food stamps....is a fool.

it's so lovely to be able to compartmentalize like that. shades of gray can be so confusing.

NYCROBOT, you forgot "white" and "a god-fearing Christian" in your list of minimum requirements for the delivery of providence and relief.

It's easy to be liberal and lump every needy person together just so that the unworthy don't have to hold up to any standards. But the distinction is right. The safety net is intended for the solid citizen who has fallen down, not the never worthy. There are no shades of gray in NYCROBOT's analysis unless the real surreptitious goal is wealth distribution.

what about the children? sins of the fathers and all that? if you let your dog pee on the neighbor's lawn are you a solid citizen?

from wiki:
79 percent of all benefits go to households with children, 14 percent go to households with disabled persons, and 7 percent go to households with elderly persons.

The average gross monthly income per food stamp household is $640.
41 percent of participants are white; 36 percent are African-American, non-Hispanic; 18 percent are Hispanic; 3 percent are Asian, 2 percent are Native American, and 1 percent are of unknown race or ethnicity

the average gross monthly income per food stamp household i $640. yes sirree, that's some high living on the dole.

$640 a month--wow. sign me up! those bloodsuckers sure are living it up on MY money.

That's a lot of steak and shrimp for NYCROBOT

No, that's total earned income, household average. On that income, you get enough foodstamps for a T-Bone. Just the bone, not the steak. And some shrimp shells that someone else U-Peeled off of their appetizer.

Aboutready and happyrenter just don't get it. Are you two so used to being nickeled and dimed to death that you no longer flinch unless you are fleeced 6-figure sums?? It is not about the amount of money that any individual food-stamper can receive - sure it's not very much in absolute terms. I'm talking about the principle of taking something from the pot when you NEVER put into the pot. That's why I have no problem with the tax-paying guy who loses his job and needs some help temporarily. I will never accept giving money away to these slugs who sit on the stoop all day and never try to find work, never make an attempt to learn our language and just plain don't give a damn that they take and take and take like it was their god-given right. Like we owe it to them. Please.

from TGI Friday's.

you want to tell the children that they've never put into the pot, or their parents haven't, so they don't get food? Please.

this is like preventive medicine. it SAVES money. and more importantly, you have shown zero proof of abuse in this case, and fraud and abuse is reported to be quite low in this program in its entirety. go to the governmental webpage and take a look at what the applicant needs to show and prove to get food stamps. no wonder they have caseworkers.

would i prefer to be overinclusive when we're talking about a basic issue such as sustenance? you bet your ass. would i prefer that aig return every f'ng cent of the $200 billion? you bet your ass.

ar - it's not about giving - NYCROBOT is ANGRY that he cant buy chuck and someone used their foodstamps to treat themselves to steak and shrimp. The NYCBigot is JEALOUS.

Leave children out of this...it's meaningless. The children of the rich and children of firefighters and children of criminals and children of poor illegal aliens are all one and the same - none of them contribute anythign to the pot. And they already get the equivalent of food stamps called free breakfast and lunch at school. The free food program at schools is a well-known surrogate marker for poor quality schools and parents checking out school districts when planning to move always look to see what the free lunch rate in the district is. That's besides the point.

And food stamps is not like preventive medicine - it does not save money. It begets welfare and perpetuates the large permanent underclass that is growing and will one day destroy our society. With the enormous rates of obesity in poor communities, it doesn't seem like any of them is starving. They seem to have plenty of access to McDonalds and KFC (which I believe does not accept food stamps). They also seem to have plenty of access to $100 pairs of sneakers, cell phones and packs of cigarettes.

Let's be real here - nobody is talking about what the real purpose of food stamps and welfare in general is: it's to placate minority communities so they do not rise up with unrest and destroy our city.

"The children of the rich and children of firefighters and children of criminals and children of poor illegal aliens are all one and the same - none of them contribute anythign to the pot."

There you go again - mass generalisations. No wonder you can't afford chuck.

that's why more white people receive food stamps than any other group. nycrobot, you just keep on hatin' on the system that gives SOO much to the poor in our community.

you're just one big mass of assumptions. you've lumped all the "undeserving" together, yet you have yet to identify the undeserving. "they" also seem to have... "they do this" or that. do you really watch carefully how each and every person in the checkout line pays, and compare that to that person's attire and possessions? do you really see, on a regular basis, enough such payments so that you feel you can give any sort of scientific analysis, or anything other than your racist bullshit?

let's be real here - nobody is talking about the real source of your anger toward people receiving assistance. small-minded pettiness. self-pity. noxious self-righteousness. horrifying lack of thought. snap judgments with nothing to back up assumptions.

NYCROBOT = NYCBIGOT

'nuff said.

CTM and aboutready: I hate the break it to you, but there are times when generalizations and anecdotes actually do represent what is going on in reality. I'll give you a real estate analogy: lots of people report anecdotally that prices have dropped and people aren't buying properties. Is it possible that their anecdotes represent the actual truth? Why yes it is possible and in fact we know that the RE market has slowed down and prices have dropped. So in this case, when lots of people give their own anecdotes, it turns out that the anecdotes represent the truth.

Why isn't it also possible that when I or saraj give our anecdotes about blatant fraud and abuse in the handout system that it actually represents a greater truth? Do you think we are the only 2 who have given examples of this on this very thread? Lots of people have chimed in with their anecdotes of people gaming the system. Why then do you refuse to believe that it could be true that people are pilfering from our system? I know you don't want to believe that minorities (who disproportionately use this system) could do any wrong and that we should look the other way because we just don't understand how hard they have it, where they are "forced" to buy Gucci knock-offs and $100 pairs of sneakers and get free lunches in schools and are forced to live in nice buildings at 80% off the rent. I know, it's a tough life for them being forced to learn english because everyone refuses to speak to them in their language.

It's ok in your mind because at least they're not AIG stealing billions of money. What's hundred of millions in fraud compared with hundreds of billions?

nycrobot: Why isn't it also possible that when I or saraj give our anecdotes about blatant fraud and abuse in the handout system that it actually represents a greater truth?

Is this a joke? Where is the 'blatant fraud and abuse' you claim to have uncovered? You are so blinded by your bigotry that you just see what you want to see: poor folks, immigrants, and brown people are the undeserving 'they.' And as you amply demonstrate in every single one of your comments, you don't actually give a hoot about fraud and abuse. You think that poor folks, immigrants, and brown people don't deserve food stamps at all--they are cockroaches, bloodsuckers, and slugs. It's not about fraud for you.

Now, if you really think that we should allow people to starve to death in the United States, you are entitled to that view. I think you are quite disturbed to hold it, but that's fine. Just be honest about it. This is not about fraud.

Why are immigrants getting food stamps?

Unless they fled their country and received political asylum status, we shouldn't be allowing anyone into this country who doesn't speak English or have an education indicative of the ability to learn it, have sufficient capital to live a certain period of time (say 2 years with no income?), and have a skill that would help them get a job that wouldn't otherwise be filled.

Always the Democrats are interested in watering down this country because it gives them more voters and more big government programs.

fine NYCROBOT, show me some proof, give me some stats. no, your generalizations are racist bullshit, and your initial post was a total lie. "ordinarily this wouldn't..." bullshit.

the estimates of fraud for this program are EXTREMELY low. people who are disenfranchised and lacking power are not the best at committing fraud. and if you are as poor as you claim, the little fraud that does exist would mean literally zero to you, other than your self-rightous ignorant self-entitled feelings.

do i care more if the empowered are committing fraud to enhance their already comfortable existences? yes. do i care if the poor are committing fraud to try to "game" the system for a few bucks? yes, but i'd much rather have the latter, particularly as the fraud is a by-product of a program that serves to feed the poor.

pldealder, this country was built on immigrants. it's who we are. we need immigrants desperately, if we are to avoid Japan's economic fate, or else a massive governmental program to promote childbirth. and until recently the Hispanics were the darlings of the Republican party, because that's the way they voted. another knee-jerk view without any facts or proof.

NYCROBOT ... needs more SEX!

"Let's be real here - nobody is talking about what the real purpose of food stamps and welfare in general is: it's to placate minority communities so they do not rise up with unrest and destroy our city."

Sorry to put facts in the way of your arguments, NYCDUMBOT, but white households constitute 43% of food stamp program participants, the largest group by race. 7.5% of rural households receive food stamps, compared to 4.8% of urban households. Children are 25% of the rural population but constitute 43% of those dependent on food stamps.

hey riggert--yout fing train is subsidized you leech--why dont you make a donation to the mta to cover that you mooch

thank you ar happyr and others--this bigotry is a fucklng embarassment
NYCBIGOT---go home to wherever YOU came from---you are a lousy selfish xenophobic bigot---get over your many failures---stop blaming the weak for your pathetic existence

"Sorry to put facts in the way of your arguments, NYCDUMBOT, but white households constitute 43% of food stamp program participants, the largest group by race. 7.5% of rural households receive food stamps, compared to 4.8% of urban households. Children are 25% of the rural population but constitute 43% of those dependent on food stamps."

a lot of the white "over representation" (with respect to below poverty line population) i'm afraid is due to lack of info on the part of the latins (1/3 is poor & many just don't know that's there help available). also only 40% of the elderly that could qualify apply for food stamps do so. the program needs to make more efforts towards telling people that help is available.

NYCBIGOT loves sarakkk

get me the video...im not ill enough

NYCBIGOT: "Why isn't it also possible that when I or saraj give our anecdotes about blatant fraud and abuse in the handout system that it actually represents a greater truth?"

YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

Your "anecdotes" do not show or represent any "blatant truth" or any "greater truth". Again, do you not understand that 1. You do not represent any truth but your own 2. Your anecdotes are just that - your stories.

Come back to the board with some REAL evidence - fact based. Not bigot glasses driven. Then, maybe then people will listen to you. Until then, go away.

CTM you make Sarah Palin look like a Mensa member. I said sometimes anecdotes actually do represent truths. I'll break it down real slow for you since it seems you rode the short bus to school: sometimes what people think they perceive in the world around them is what everyone else is perceiving and it is an actual truth. Not always, maybe not even usually, but SOMETIMES. Maybe this is one of those situations where I saw someone gaming the system and saraj saw it too and poof! people are really gaming the system all over the place. It's actually true.

But you cannot fathom that minorities could do anything wrong. Oh no! They wouldn't try to rip anyone off. No sir!

If you say you'd be fine with someone living right next door to you in the exact same type of apartment and pay 80% less than you...you are LYING!!!!! Either that, or you are so filled with white guilt that you'd even go over and offer to pay the remaining 20% for them. "Aw shucks, they deserve it. They're swell people".

the 80/20 development program doesn't mean 80% less rent paid, idiot,and your math sucks so badly i'll not even go there. and odds are that building wouldn't have been built without the concessions granted by the city, with the conditions for rental structure set by the city in return for the concessions, so any resident should be happy that the low to MODERATE income tenants enabled the structure.

nycrobot, it doesn't seem as though everybody is perceiving your "truth". you are. and without any factual information. zero. keep an eye out for caucasians gaming the system, too. you wouldn't want to be racist.

NYCBIGOT - READ WHAT I QUOTED - Where does the word SOMETIMES appear? Huh? Where. Here is the quote again you baffling stupid moron: "Why isn't it also possible that when I or saraj give our anecdotes about blatant fraud and abuse in the handout system that it actually represents a greater truth?"

In that quote you equate your anecdote to represent a greater truth. YOU ARE EFFING WRONG! Your truth is meaningless without any factual evidence. Get that through your biggoted puny grey-cell you call a brain.

nice... wish I could contribute.... allz Ize gotz to say is caviar w/ foodstamps! nice nice

w67thstreet
nice... wish I could contribute.... allz Ize gotz to say is caviar w/ foodstamps! nice nice

remember w67thstreet, we don't think you are smarter or cooler because you spell words with a 'z' at the end of them.

And remember my little doggie, not "nice nice", but rather "yep yep" like a barking toy dog should say.

Porcocrustacean: What are "words"? Do you mean "wordz"? Type the King's English, please.

Aboutready: You are correct, and I am indeed aware that '80/20' means that 80% of tenants pay market rent and the remaining are government-subsidized. It just so happens that the subsidized renters here pay 20-25% of the market rent. So no need for you to 'even go there.'

aboutready
about 2 hours ago

the 80/20 development program doesn't mean 80% less rent paid, idiot,and your math sucks so badly i'll not even go there

CTM: were you kept in a cage and fed bananas as a child? Your intelligence seems to be on par with the macaque. When I say SOMETIMES anecdotes represent an actual truth I mean that some anecdotes reflect an actual truth - my anecdote or saraj's anecdote may actually represent something truthful. I don't understand why you get thrown by this concept. Just because it is my anecdote doesn't mean it should be dismissed completely because I didn't conduct a 1,000 person study and publish it in a respected sociology journal. In your world, no one's opinion matters because every opinion is just one opinion and not a conglomerate of all opinions. What do you think "factual evidence" is? Isn't it just a collection of individual truths? How many anecdotes would it take to convince you of something? 5? 10? 50? what? Do you ask 50 people what they thought of a movie before you go see it?

My lord CTM, you worry me. Does someone look after you, make sure you feed yourself and brush your teeth? Do you live in a group home where you have a counselor to make sure you wash your hands and don't cut yourself on sharp objects? It seems like you could benefit from that kind of structured environment.

NYCBIGOT - REREAD YOUR POST - You did NOT use the word "sometimes" in the post I am referring to. Are you just stupid or really stupid that you cannot even read and comprehend your own crap? And at this point, you have proven to everyone on this board that your opinion counts for NOTHING. Give it a rest loser....

It's so sad how this country has lost its way. Nobody gives a s*#! about anyone else until something bad happens to someone close or their nanny gets deported. People listen to braying Radio hosts and don't bother to check if they're being honest or not....it's just so much easier to blame someone else for everything that's wrong. People fearing "nameless, faceless, government bureaucrats" as opposed to what...the friendly for-profit insurance companies denying coverage for autistic children? Two years ago I was sick but I flew to France with my wife anyway. I was barely able to lift my head the next morning, and my wife called the front desk to see if there was a doctor I could see. Go figure...a doctor was in our room 20 minutes later. He asked a few questions, listened to my breathing, told me I had Bronchitis, and prescribed an antibiotic that my wife picked up at the pharmacy on the block. An hour after calling the front desk, I was taking drugs and getting better. The house call cost me 80 Euro, (about $120 at the time), and the drugs cost another $25. If that's "socialized medicine"; I'll take it. Wake up, people.

saraj, read robot's post, more carefully this time. do the math. does it work out for you?

and i'm still waiting. how do you know which tenants pay which rent?

Aboutready: my numbers may be a little off, but that isn't the point. How would you feel living right next door to someone who was paying much less for their rent (like say 50% less) than you were? Does that provoke any resentment in you?

What about if you went to a restaurant and there were separate price lists where the people at the next table paid half what you paid for any item. Is that ok to do or do you find some fault in that? Do you believe that society has the obligation to make sure that everyone gets to eat in a fancy restauarant? Do we have the obligation to see to it that everyone gets to drive a BMW? These are the same concepts - we may feel as a society that everyone should have a roof over their heads, but in my opinion, there shouldn't be the obligation to make that roof a park avenue address.

They're not on Park Avenue.

"How would you feel living right next door to someone who was paying much less for their rent (like say 50% less) than you were? Does that provoke any resentment in you?"

Been there and no, no resentment. Just because Rush and Glenn tell you its us against them doesn't mean you have to go around hating everyone who got some break. If you actually knew these people outside of some leecher stereotype you feel comfortable with, you might realize that most of them are not kicking back living the good life.

give it up. the bmw and restaurant stories are not analagous--they're ridiculous and as just been pointed out, park avenue is another ludicrous exaggeration.

you're making youself look like a biased idiot.

wtf are you talkin bout BIGOT (i clipped the NYC, having a tough time conceding i live nearby you)

food stamps provide subsistence level nutrition for those that don't have the money to buy food
bmw...park ave...you're joking right?

im try to reconcile that youve had sufficient education to write a sentence, yet that which you write is complete imbicilic garbage

please just go away

Why are immigrants getting food stamps?

Unless they fled their country and received political asylum status, we shouldn't be allowing anyone into this country who doesn't speak English or have an education indicative of the ability to learn it, have sufficient capital to live a certain period of time (say 2 years with no income?), and have a skill that would help them get a job that wouldn't otherwise be filled.

This nation is a nation of immigrant descendants. Our immigrant ancestors came here without social programs in place but with a hunger ... and need ... to succeed.

What about if you went to a restaurant and prices were the same, but the people at the next table paid walked in with 20 times more money than you because they inherited a lot of money?

robot, as i said before the whole damn apartment building most likely would not have been built (particularly in that location) without the program. move to bronxville if you can't stand the thought of the 80/20 program.

"the whole damn apartment building most likely would not have been built (particularly in that location) without the program."

Interesting statement with no factual basis or citation.

my anecdotal experience of immigrants is that i am incredibly impressed with their industiousness and ambition--their pursuit of the american dream is compelling--what they have often endured to ultimately have a place in our economy is impressive--

in fact many immigrants are resented by americans for their industriuosness and success--member the hatred of the koreans for staying open 24/7 and putting the neighborhood deli outta business--or the fishing boats set fire in texas by less efficient longtime fishermen

BIGOT reeks of entitled american laziness--seeks to blame immigrants and help for the poor for his own failures and insecurity--such is the power of scapegoating and racism

one other thing BIGOT...youre an fing scumbag

AR: didn't you read about subsidized housing agreement in Westchester? Not gonna be lily-white much longer.

Even Bronxville? damn, i guess robot has to move to greenwich.

hornbecker, you honestly think a developer wouldn't prefer a development that is totally market rate? do you have any idea how expensive it is to develop rental buildings in this city? why do you think so few get built? why do you think top developers utilize the program when renters like robot and saraj are hardly rare?

and hornbecker, i'll be happy to go find the f'ng citation, right after robot and saraj provide facts for the claims they began the "conversation" with.

Depending on when your immigrant ancestors arrived there may very well have been social programs in place, just not under the aegis of the federal or local government. (Of course this does not pertain to native Americans or to African Americans who didn't choose to come here, although they did have impact "social services" following the Great Migrations of African Americans from South to Northern Citys). Ever hear of Tammany Hall? Club house politics in New York and other major cities, meant everything from jobs to Thanksgiving turkeys for poor people--with a not so subtle reminder to attend English classes, obtain citizenship and "vote for those who help you". The policial "machines" tend to be protrayed solely as riddled with courruption but there was also a real grass roots social welfare benefit to the system. And not surprisingly Al Smith, who was the first to concieve and implement programs associated with the New Deal, was 100% a Tammany Hall product.

Thanks, Liz. I was going to explain how Tammany Hall kept immigrant neighborhoods well-lubricated with patronage, but this whole thread is so very troll-fueled that I stopped. The other major provider of social programs was the settlement houses, of which there were many. Add to that facilities like public baths (or "PVBLIC BATHS", as it says on the front to appeal to immigrants from ancient Rome), and it's hardly as if there was no government support.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/11/nyregion/11settle.html?scp=3&sq=Settlement%20of%20Westchester%20Desegregation%20Suit%20&st=cse

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mhamilton
2 days ago
ignore this person
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All this talk of "scamming" the system by lazy welfare recipients, illegal immigrants, etc is both troublesome and short-sighted...How come none of this anger and disgust is ever directed at the top 5-10% of the population that hold a majority of the country's wealth. Those folks have, in the vast majority of cases, certainly scammed they system or skewed it to their benefit.I could care less about some poor soul wearing knock-off designer duds and eating cheap cuts of meat...I am worried about the corporations that don't pay taxes, the inept scions of prominent families who secure powerful and well-paid positions based on family connections, non-bid contracts that are awarded based on political patronage and not competency (see Blackwater and Haliburton)...Quit crying over freaking pennies and look at the real dollars that have gone out of the door...
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hippie

Why is everyone so hung up on "providing citations" and "showing factual examples"? It's as if you are not allowed to see the world through your own eyes and comment on it as an anecdote that just might be a representation of an actual truth. CTM doesn't seem to grasp this because he/she is constantly wanting me to offer proof that food-stampers scam the system with large-scale studies published in scholarly journals. I'm not making any grandiose conclusions and I'm not claiming that I did a study showing that most of these people are scammers. I'm not doing that! I'm merely giving you MY impression. So is saraj. So are a few others. We are giving our own singular impressions. CTM and aboutready are taking personal offense to my anecdotal statements and are distilling them into larger generalizations that they attribute to me, such as "ALL IMMIGRANTS, ESPECIALLY NON-WHITE ONES ARE INFERIOR". Of course I never made any such statements and I have never generalized about minorities. I've only commented about my dislike for people who scam the food stamp system or other social welfare systems.

NYCBIGOT: "CTM doesn't seem to grasp this because he/she is constantly wanting me to offer proof that food-stampers scam the system with large-scale studies published in scholarly journals."

Again - you like using YOUR own assumptions to portray others. I never asked for any grand study - those wer YOUR words. I said show us some evidence that backs-up your CLAIM that the woman you saw with your bigotted eyes was actually defrauding the system becuase you saw her buying steak and chips. You made that assumption becuase of her race.