Middle Class in NYC

Do you think you would save much in the suburbs? When I look at it I would be trading a high rent apartment for a high house payment + two cars and all their expenses + long commute times. My wife will go back to her job so the commute time would have twice the impact on our children.

wamus,

Ususlly a move to the burbs isn't about saving money, but getting "more" for the same amount of money in the city. For example, a 2BR apt in a nice city neighborhood translates into a 4 BR house in a decent burb, plus two cars, etc. It's about getting more space and certainty re schools (and if you're lucky, a commute time similar to that of many folks in the city, i.e., 30 or 35 mins).

KISS is right and wrong. Remember taxes plus the fact its tougher to spend money as readily and randomly every time you walk out your door.

Remember to net back the 4% you pay to NYC you need to make 6% more. And yes, having more space and two cars is having more. Have one car in NYC and the parity of cost argument is even tougher. For me, unless you make enough to budget $400 or $500k I'd rather be out there.

$300k with one kid is closer to a push vs. a house and two cars. The time tips it back in favor of NYC.

> I spend a few hundred a month on books.

Half.com. Try it.

Trading/finance books on there? Its less than a couple of hundred. Hey maybe I could save $20k a year if I tried...if I cared.

Personally, I've always been big saver. I once had a substitute teacher tell me how to get rich, and I listened.
1) always pay yourself
2) don't eat your children (live off the interest of what you saved, but don't dip)

My mo is this... I have always in my head thought of a certain "income level" based on the last few years of safe earnings. So, just making up random numbes, lets say you've gone from $80k to $300k to $100k to $150k.... I figure I generally know "I'm going to make $80" and I spend as if thats it. That number gradually moves up over time, but its based more about expectations than actuals.

Everything else I treat as bonus. Which I look at more as an endowment than anything else. Sure, take the big bonus, splurge it. But I generally find that 50% or 75% or more of the excess goes into nest egg. Now you can spend some of the earnings off that nest egg, but not the nest egg.

Or, another way to think of it, a $100k bonsus doesn't get you $100k in spending, it gets you $5-10k a year for the next few years.

The informal study of technical analysis got me out of the market when it broke the 500-day average... How much did I save there :) ?

> I spend a few hundred a month on books.

Why, my book is only $10, you could buy 30 copies!

ali r.

"Haven't we determined that middle class doesn't exist in Manhattan?"

No, we haven't.

Take off your elitist-tinted glasses and stop looking down your nose.

The middle class is all around you. You just don't see them because you apparently don't consider the people who are bagging your groceries, driving your subway, picking up your garbage, delivering your mail, and polishing your toenails to be real people worthy of attention.

rhino,

re taxes, it's pretty much the same: what you save by not paying the NYC income tax, you likely spend on property tax in Westchester or LI. (CT has lower prop taxes, but that is offset by higher housing prices for an equiv WC/LI home.)

I agree with you that with one kid it's a push between NYC and the burbs. With 2 (or more) kids, it tips in favor the burbs on an economic basis.

The time factor to me is not that impt because you can find a smaller house/property closer in and bigger house/propoerty further out, so I view that as the "commuting time vs getting more for your burb money" tradeoff, and not so much as a city vs burb tradeoff.

lol ali, Rhino, what do you do with them once you read them? do you keep them? soon enough you'll need an entire room just for them (called library in not so cramped areas...)

"right now i'd say that for an equity partner $700k would be on the lowish side (at an amlaw 100 firm), starting out, and $1.1mish would be on the higher side (not counting outliers like Wachtell and maybe Quinn). the spread in the difference increases hugely over time, with some partners at top firms bringing down a few million during their peak years, while those at lesser firms would make much less. Non-equity partners frequently make somewhere around $500k, although some make significantly more if they are older and non-equity for other reasons."

hey AR, i have no clue about law firms whatsoever. how many people in manhattan work in them? guess they are a significant employer. what happens to these partners once they retire? they keep on getting $ made by younger workaholics?

KISS, even with property taxes, your total housing payment = or < livable Manhattan rent or ownership costs... Now define what YOU think is livable/equivalent. If I cant raise two kids in 1600sqft in Manhattan, the comparison is moot to me because much less is not enough space in my view. Sure, you can favor NYC if you think 900 sqft is more livable than a 2500 sqft house in Darien. I agree that time is the problem. I would commute for two private school tuitions ($80k after tax is $125k+ pre-tax...a salary!)

Matt, you're ignored. Please do me a favor and ignore me back.

Ali, you just bought right? What can I learn from you? :)

After I read them I keep them. Some day I hope to have a man-room/library. I dont think I could find them in a library for the most part.

"Some day I hope to have a man-room/library."

Isn't that what you call your bathroom?

"Some day I hope to have a man-room/library." Isn't that what you call your bathroom?

1st women also read. 2nd only in manhattan (not when he moves to the burbs)

"Ali, you just bought right? What can I learn from you? :)"

so cruel but so true.

I know women also read. Come on. In my family, I happen to be the one buying most of the books and to have brought more of the books into the marriage. If I had an office, they would be there.

"My mo is this... I have always in my head thought of a certain "income level" based on the last few years of safe earnings. So, just making up random numbes, lets say you've gone from $80k to $300k to $100k to $150k.... I figure I generally know "I'm going to make $80" and I spend as if thats it. That number gradually moves up over time, but its based more about expectations than actuals."

I agree. This is how I come up with the $300k.

"I dont think I could find them in a library for the most part. "

if they are very specific (academic, unless you have access to a university library) or recent you will probably not. i don't see the point in savings a few bucks on books given that you enjoy them. at the most return within 2 weeks those that you don't want to keep and bought by mistake to B&N

Rhino, have you commuted into NYC before from the suburbs?

Yes many years ago.

Lord, admin, i don't know how many people in manhattan work in law firms. too many, i'd guess. but to put it in perspective, many big law firms have been making fewer than 10 people partner per year (in their manhattan offices), with many first year clasees starting in the 100-120 range. those ain't great odds.

as to pensions, different firms have different policies, but many of them have partnership agreements that specifically spell out that it's your own damned responsibility to plan for retirement. you will get what you invested as a buy-in, but the young ones don't generally keep paying for the old ones.

and KISS, i still think you get more for LESS in most decent suburbs. it's true that people tend to spend up to their limits, but if you have self-control you can do very well choosing the burbs over the city.

"And a few hundred on books? Ever heard of the library? I rarely buy books. After all, I'm not going to read the book a second time since I already know the ending!"

President, not all of us are buying dime-store novels. Many books require a second or third reading (or more) before the reader can fully grasp the depth and detail of the prose.

As a writer myself, I hang onto most of my books -- particularly the nonfiction books -- for reference.

It's also nice to be able to share books with others.

Hi Rhino, thanks for sharing so much of your story, but let me give you a precis of mine:

I grew up in Little Rock (judge's kid/shrink's kid), went to Harvard, graduated summa, worked on Wall Street, worked in journalism, moved into real estate, wrote the book, and now do real estate half-time/journalism half-time. My clients are basically friends from Harvard, people I meet on this board, and celebrity kids, which is my weird little subspecialty. I basically now have the life I want, expect I'd love a kid or two (I'm 42).

We did just buy a co-op, moving out of "prime" Manhattan, selling our beach house for the down payment, but keeping our Midtown condo as an investment.

What can you learn from that, other than that I have a limited attention span? That I personally will endure a fair amount of pain to avoid the inconveniences of a suburban lifestyle (space, shmace, if you have never owned a house I cannot emphasize enough what a COMPLETE pain in the tail it is); that I am reasonably bullish on Manhattan pricing, and think we will bump along the bottom for a few years but not decline markedly from here; and that I believe the greatest ally that a potential buyer can have is flexibility (we had intended to move to Gramercy, and yet I love it here on the UUWS.)

ali r.
the book: bit.ly/3bYMOE

"Many books require a second or third reading (or more) before the reader can fully grasp the depth and detail of the prose."

no...before matt can grasp. do you underline everything as well?

"We did just buy a co-op, moving out of "prime" Manhattan, selling our beach house for the down payment, but keeping our Midtown condo as an investment. "

hey ali, didn't know you sold your beach house, guess it's best to diversify out of RE for you, after all a lot of your income already depends on it.

"As a writer myself, I hang onto most of my books -- particularly the nonfiction books -- for reference."

ok, but not everybody likes to accumulate stuff (sorry, already read books)

I was wondering where you were, CC.

Looks like someone woke up from his nappy-poo.

no..i was just immersed in re-reading for the third time my cable bill and associated inserts.

"do you underline everything as well?"

yes! and write at the margin what i'm thinking about, so i can see how my brain is evolving during the 3rd, 4th, 5th, ... readings

"ok, but not everybody likes to accumulate stuff (sorry, already read books)"

I can respect that position, admin, but for writers in particular, books are the tools of our trade, and they're not just "stuff".

On a much broader scale, it worries me that people are switching from real books to Kindles. Soon there will be no tangible, permanent, WRITTEN record of anything, as all DIGITAL information that exists only in cyberspace will always be subject to *editing* and censoring by the Powers That Be.

We're moving closer to 1984 with each passing day.

"no..i was just immersed in re-reading for the third time my cable bill and associated inserts."

i'll definitely need to re read my coned bill, seems to be 3 times what's usually been...

so...matt that's why you don't like paperless billing? so, how much of your 1,700 square feet is filled with past cable bills that you are re-reading? do you print out every useless comment you make here and save as well?

I toss my old bills in the recycling bin.

"re taxes, it's pretty much the same: what you save by not paying the NYC income tax, you likely spend on property tax in Westchester or LI. (CT has lower prop taxes, but that is offset by higher housing prices for an equiv WC/LI home.)"

True, given that NYC essentially subsidized RE taxes with income taxes for years... but

1) that is changing to some degree with the bloomberg RE tax hikes, lets see where that goes

2) there are other offsets in the suburbs. My folks moved from the city to the burbs a few years ago, and they actually raved about their savings. I think their RE taxes went from $4 to $9, but they mentioned getting that back and more with the decrease in insurance (car in particular), healthcare costs, food prices, gas, phone, utilities, etc. I don't remember all the specifics, but they made it clear they made it back in spades.

And thats not even including savings on school (or even just tutors to make up for some NYC public school deficiencies.... some suburban schools even do the SAT test prep free)

Interesting, considering a growing number of empty-nesters are moving FROM the 'burbs TO the city to avoid crushing real estate taxes and save on transportation by getting RID of the cars.

matt, i think those might have been empty nesters of the past few years. i think that trend is diminishing.

So suburban taxes are dropping?

hey matt. try to get it. no one is moving because no one can sell.

"no one can sell"

My friend just closed on four sales this week, and it's not even Friday yet.

you have friends?

no matt, taxes are rising everywhere. including here.

"Interesting, considering a growing number of empty-nesters are moving FROM the 'burbs TO the city to avoid crushing real estate taxes and save on transportation by getting RID of the cars. "

As evidenced by the huge drop in demand in Manhattan, lower prices, and lower volumes?
I'm sure there are a couple, but folks are now net moving out of Manhattan...

Interestingly enough, the Times did a whole story on folks leaving manhattan and moving to the burbs recently.

"Interesting, considering a growing number of empty-nesters are moving FROM the 'burbs TO the city to avoid crushing real estate taxes and save on transportation by getting RID of the cars."

I have yet to see that happen first hand. I think this so called trned of empty nesters moving from the burbs to the city is way overstated. For the most part, when someone moves from the city to the burbs, it is a one way trip.

> So suburban taxes are dropping

Increasing, but not as fast as NYC. Which had an 18% increase BEFORE the recent runups that hit everyone.

Ali..Funny enough I had every intention of moving to your old 'hood (Upper Hell's Kitchen) and ended up buying in the perfect place for me....Gramercy. Being open minded is the key to living successfully in New York on so many levels (although I did rule out the East Side above 65th Street for transportation reasons. I'm already getting mail from the AARP and I have been hearing about "Second Avenue Subway" my entire life),

who said that suburban taxes are dropping? My tax bill for the next fiscal year disagrees.

"that I am reasonably bullish on Manhattan pricing, and think we will bump along the bottom for a few years but not decline markedly from here;"

Ali, much respect. You may be right about Manhattan pricing, but I can't think of a reason (before the fact) why it could play out that way. The only way Manhattan holds is if there are a lot more renters with a lot more money, savings and earnings on which to qualify for a loan in the returned to normal financing environment. If Manhattan really just bumps along, it will be for fifteen years until incomes and rent catch up in my view.

The suburbs vs. Manhattan will never be solved. Complex equations with space, time, the freedom of a car (at lower cost), the freedom from school angst and cost (if you are in the right suburban district). For me, unless I am killing it financially, I don't necessarily want to worry about what happens when my first kid graduates fifth grade. Others might find that uncertainty less daunting than others that come with the burbs. A true three bed for a two child family with light and 1500 sqft... Thats a lot of dough. And I am sorry this 'property tax' argument being proferred against NYC income tax is very flawed. Fully loaded for property taxes and the cost of cars, livable space (in context) is still cheaper out there. You just can't replace a 1200 sqft apartment with a 5000 sqft house. You replace it with a 2500 sqft house and two VWs not two BMWs.

"The definitive guide to real estate for first-time homebuyers AND new agents"

How can the same book be a guide to agents and buyers? :)

Here's my book. Its called how the advent of securitization for residental real estate loans obliterated underwriting standards. At the same time, the feds looked the other way while banks levered 40 to 1. MBAs started earning multiples of comparably educated legal and medical peers; many of them lived in NY. Prices rocketed so high, followers of conventional wisdom that its better to own than rent found themselves in a quandary. Many succumed to peer pressure, and fear of loss (of appreciation) and bought places for which the math didn't work vs. renting (for the long term). These same folks are now stuck there. These places may or may not accomodate their family plan. Meanwhile, those who own choose to deny the role that finance and financing played in this drama. The final chapter of my book has yet to be written.

>How can the same book be a guide to agents and buyers?

Read it and you'll see -- bascially, it's a memoir of my first year in the biz and what I did right and wrong (helpful to agents) with sidebars and back matter aimed at consumers (good for sellers and buyers). I did that on purpose to try and reach a broader audience, and I was rewarded with a second printing.

The problem with living in the suburbs, IMHO, is the time tax. It's not like a generation ago, where you didn't start "work" till you got into the office, and only one person worked. Now time commuting on the train/in your car is just more time away from your kids -- at least in the city you can see them before they go to bed.

But then, I went to pretty lousy middle schools where I grew up, so it's tough to imagine that any sixth-grade situation in NYC could be THAT bad. But I don't have kids here, so I don't know.

Another suburban negative is if there's no one home during the week to take care of the house, I can assure you that you'll lose every other weekend of your life to gutter cleaning, getting the tree guy in to trim a branch, getting the firemen in to clean the chimney, having a small leak in the bathroom fixed, dealing with the basement after a bad storm, fixing the heating system, roto-rootering the pipes, etc. -- all stuff that someone else deals with in an NYC apartment situation. And you know, you have to physically get to the dry cleaner really early in the morning, because it's not like they're open when you get home from work at 7:30 or 8:30, and it's not like they deliver to your door, the way they do in NYC.

I'm just a city girl, I guess.

ali r.

"The problem with living in the suburbs, IMHO, is the time tax. It's not like a generation ago, where you didn't start "work" till you got into the office, and only one person worked. Now time commuting on the train/in your car is just more time away from your kids -- at least in the city you can see them before they go to bed.

Another suburban negative is if there's no one home during the week to take care of the house, I can assure you that you'll lose every other weekend of your life to gutter cleaning, getting the tree guy in to trim a branch, getting the firemen in to clean the chimney, having a small leak in the bathroom fixed, dealing with the basement after a bad storm, fixing the heating system, roto-rootering the pipes, etc. -- all stuff that someone else deals with in an NYC apartment situation. And you know, you have to physically get to the dry cleaner really early in the morning, because it's not like they're open when you get home from work at 7:30 or 8:30, and it's not like they deliver to your door, the way they do in NYC."

*****

AMEN.

And it's not just the repairs, it's regular weekly maintenance and cleaning.

Who realistically -- after working 8, 9, 10 or more hours, then spending an hour-long commute home -- is motivated after dinner to tackle the housework or the lawn? If you move to the suburbs -- for normal MIDDLE CLASS people who can't afford to hire domestic help -- you WILL spend your weekends mowing the lawn, weeding the flowerbeds, trimming the trees, and cleaning the house. EVERY WEEKEND.

Sure, you'll have "space". You'll never enjoy that space, but you'll have it.

"The problem with living in the suburbs, IMHO, is the time tax. "

exactly, and even if you have a husband that helps a lot with household chores it's the productivity of the mother the one that gets hurt the most (here i'm thinking about 2 kids). you might end up being the driver for the kids, the slave of the house if you want unless her standards about tidiness, cleaning, healthy eating, ... get relaxed to a point in which she does as little as men usually do.

remember we have no childcare help here as in europe to make it easier to be a 2 income household with young kids. told my hubby (that want to go to the burbs sometimes), we could get it done in europe maybe, but definitely not here (i'm the higher earner so my lower productivity will really hurt us). the pay gap between mothers and childless moms is higher than between men and women.

I agree with all that. Where did you buy...Like West 90s, right? My wife plans to stay home. With two people commuting into the city, that would be tough. Maybe the second income covers the tuitions. I hadn't even considered two commuters. I was thinking one commuter and stay at home mom, or work from home mom.

"Maybe the second income covers the tuitions. I hadn't even considered two commuters. I was thinking one commuter and stay at home mom, or work from home mom."

i work from home with a baby, it's been 3 years since i've started (everybody thought i was crazy, now it's clear it paid off though). i don't think i could have done it in my current situation though (with a very young kid), as i'm exhausted as it is. it takes a lot of energy and maybe i ended up working more than through a traditional career. so imho it pays to time it (like when your baby goes to kindergarten for example, and maybe before the 2nd kid shows up). brainstorming about possibilities a couple of years before starting is a nice past time that pays off.

I'm confused a little. Brainstorming possibilities for what? Career or living arrangements?

for what type of things she might enjoy the most working on at home (and maybe even on what type of schedule, this i didn't do, and end up working till 2 am cause the baby used to wake up at that time... now i'm paying the price for that).

it might be that there's an obvious thing to do (which is the path i took), but in my case, i also started another enterprise that goes a little bit counter cyclical and it takes the opposite state of mind to do to complement (i guess that's why people thought i was crazy cause it was unexpected). it's a great opportunity to dream a little.

"The problem with living in the suburbs, IMHO, is the time tax. It's not like a generation ago, where you didn't start "work" till you got into the office, and only one person worked. Now time commuting on the train/in your car is just more time away from your kids -- at least in the city you can see them before they go to bed."

So, spending 30-40 minutes on the train (or worse) where you can't do any work versus say 40-50 on LIRR or Metro North with your blackberry? If anything, the new lifestyle has made suburban commuting less of a time tax, because you're connected.

Also, in my experience, the suburban parents who work "serious" jobs full time in other cities see their kids a LOT more than Manhattan parents with short commutes. Look at peak train volumes... folks on the LIRR are getting home earlier than most of the parents in Manhattan I know.

And if you can cut your costs significantly moving to the suburbs, you might just not have to work the same hours.

Oh, and lets not forget.... your KIDS also end up commuting in a lot of cases in the city. Check the average travel time to high school for manhattan kids vs. suburban kids. You might be home, but will they?

"And if you can cut your costs significantly moving to the suburbs, you might just not have to work the same hours."

for us it will only be ok if hubby can telecommute at least once per week (on fridays). he hated his commute on subway (now walks a few minutes across a nice park) so i'm shocked each time he brings up the burbs option. he doesn't like to live in a tiny house, that's the trade off for us.

"Oh, and lets not forget.... your KIDS also end up commuting in a lot of cases in the city. Check the average travel time to high school for manhattan kids vs. suburban kids. You might be home, but will they?"

this is SO true! as a suburban girl a lot of my memories involve a bus, a train and my mom's car. maybe 2 hours per day just moving towards somewhere...

"So, spending 30-40 minutes on the train (or worse) where you can't do any work versus say 40-50 on LIRR or Metro North with your blackberry? If anything, the new lifestyle has made suburban commuting less of a time tax, because you're connected."

That's only PART of the "time tax".

The other part is mowing the lawn/shoveling the driveway/pruning the trees/cleaning the gutters/cleaning and maintaining a house three times the size of a comparably-priced apartment in the city.

Unless you can afford domestic help, when you move to the suburbs, you work for the "house" on the weekends.

Oh and by the way, that's 40-50 minutes spent actually ON the commuter trains. Don't forget the 20 minutes or so (minimum) it takes to get from your office TO Penn Station or Grand Central. Then once you're in Babylon or Huntington or Danbury or whereverthehell you live out in East Kabumfcuk, unless your front door is at the end of the train platform, you're looking at driving another 10, 15, 20 or more minutes from the train station home.

All of a sudden that "40 minute commute" has really become 90 minutes.

Let's not kid ourselves here.

think of all the extra time to have to read your cable bill. that's a real win for you. although, you could take the cable bill with you and read while commuting?

12 minute cab to/from work--one kid 100yds from her school the other 3 blox

so funny when i ask my commuter friends about their commute times--"door to seat in office" is often almost double the cited "train time"

to each own but i would find suburban life inferior on too many fronts to mention

Many of the negative points about suburban living can be avoided in other cities. For instance you can have the large yard, good schools and a ten minute commute in Knoxville or Austin. Leaving the NYC area is a whole new set of trade offs, but I think I would prefer it to a 90 minute Manhattan commuting lifestyle.

"so funny when i ask my commuter friends about their commute times--"door to seat in office" is often almost double the cited "train time""

Agreed, it gets undercut. But same thing happens in Manhattan, too. I can't tell you how many 15 minute subway rides take 35-40 door to door as well.

As for kids... ask the kids at stuy how long their commutes are.

> to each own but i would find suburban life inferior on too many fronts to mention

Agreed.

But costs is not one of them.

"Many of the negative points about suburban living can be avoided in other cities. For instance you can have the large yard, good schools and a ten minute commute in Knoxville or Austin. Leaving the NYC area is a whole new set of trade offs, but I think I would prefer it to a 90 minute Manhattan commuting lifestyle."

Good points... but 90 minutes isn't exactly the comparison. Great neck train itself is 23-25 minutes to penn station, I believe. Even adding on the extra parts, that 'aint 90 minutes. Short Hills is also a pretty easy one. Of course, there will always be people who live next to where they work, but I grew up knowing a lot of upper east siders who commuted to wall street.

You obviously have to plan it well for you, but the cost differences can be astromonical.

"Good points... but 90 minutes isn't exactly the comparison. Great neck train itself is 23-25 minutes to penn station, I believe. Even adding on the extra parts, that 'aint 90 minutes. Short Hills is also a pretty easy one."

Most of the people living in those affluent locales aren't in the Middle Class, and didn't move to the suburbs for "affordability".

"Affordable" suburbs are NOT a 20 minute commuter train ride into Manhattan.

"Many of the negative points about suburban living can be avoided in other cities. For instance you can have the large yard, good schools and a ten minute commute in Knoxville or Austin. Leaving the NYC area is a whole new set of trade offs, but I think I would prefer it to a 90 minute Manhattan commuting lifestyle."

very true, but my guess is that many of those earning $250k/year and up are not mobile (finance, law firm, ...).

"very true, but my guess is that many of those earning $250k/year and up are not mobile (finance, law firm, ...)."

They're mobile enough.

They'll just have to get used to making $70K instead of $270K.

Of course, that's all they'd need to make anyway, since that $900K house in the NYC suburbs would be only $300K just about anywhere else ...

i know a couple that moved to super cheap texas, they remember nyc lifestyle as a "right of passage", basically a pain in the ass. imagine if these mobility were much more common, tax revenue (both fed, state and local) will totally collapse!

Governments don't really NEED all that tax money anyway.

admin, I knew an imaginary couple who stuck their heads in an unlit gas oven for a few hours. They no longer endure the pain in the ass that is New York, and they now have the same quality of life that your friends in Texas have.

"admin, I knew an imaginary couple who stuck their heads in an unlit gas oven for a few hours. They no longer endure the pain in the ass that is New York, and they now have the same quality of life that your friends in Texas have."

Really??

Living in Heaven is no better than living in Texas???

My imaginary friends aren't on heaven's guest list (+1)

Its cool for the people who love Manhattan so much. My goal is to have this baby enter first grade in a top ranked CT public school. Until then I will ignore my budget and fill our apartment with books about trading that a destined for my library.

Your wife is a people who love Manhattan so much. You're supposed to say "our goal is ..."

Its not her goal. Its mine. Maybe first we ought to figure out where $10k a month is going on top of our rent. Or maybe in four years I will be making 2007 money again and not care what Spence costs. Maybe a $3mm seven-room apartment will fall 60%. Whooo knows.

alan, texas is not for me either, otherwise i'd have moved already. thought i didn't want to live driving a car and the income distribution that mimics latinoamerica bothers me... the 2nd part is already present in nyc though imho, so my excuse for not liking texas (vs nyc) is reduced to the car.

re costs-im lucky-i have always lived well within my means

One of the great benefits of grinding in NYC is the euphoric feeling you get when you visit another expensive 'city' and not really feeling it. Imagine a midwesterner $70k/yr landing in Paris, Sydney, Tokyo, Papeete or Phuket? You spend so much time worrying about $ you forget to look up an enjoy that great blue lagoon. : )

That's also the reason we segregate ourselves into socio/Eco groups. Not that I do it, but it's always awkward to travel with couples that we have to worry about the cost before booking hotels, restaurants and activities. : ( (or even family members, when I go out with my dad, I always pick the cheapest diners. He'd have a fit to see our take out bills)

wow, a lot of burb myths being perpetuated here.

Let me dispel a couple: first, having a stay at home partner/spouse is easier to pull off in the burbs, because of the lower costs generally in the burbs, so the kids actually do benefit from having a parent around more than when both parents have to work to support the 3BR/private school/etc city lifestyle. Also, that stay at home person often takes care of a lot of the tedious errands (food shopping, dry cleaners) during the school day. Thus, both kids and parents can have a good quality of life. Second, a lot of the so called house maintenance (e.g. yard work, cleaning gutters; plumbing/elec), is outsourced, and pretty cheaply relative to nyc. Go visit Scarsdale, Bxville, etc on a weekend if you don't believe me.

true west67th, i just avoid hanging out with the rich as if they were the plague (not good for my brain, i found) and pick up the bill when with family

"a lot of the so called house maintenance (e.g. yard work, cleaning gutters; plumbing/elec), is outsourced, and pretty cheaply relative to nyc. Go visit Scarsdale, Bxville, etc on a weekend if you don't believe me."

Again, this is a thread about the MIDDLE CLASS.

The Middle Class doesn't live in Scarsdale or Bronxville, nor can they afford to "outsource" the house maintenance.

KISS the downside is being exagerrated to glorify the preference. Free time? Between the taxes, home costs and tuitions, you could retire 10 years earlier in the burbs vs. Manhattan.

Matt, shut up. This isn't the presidential debates. Topic can wander.

"KISS the downside is being exagerrated to glorify the preference. Free time? Between the taxes, home costs and tuitions, you could retire 10 years earlier in the burbs vs. Manhattan."

Provided you live long enough to retire.

Am I dying of suburbia or something? Matt are you 30? You talk like a know it all 26 year old. In 10 years, you will realize how little of what you thought you knew is actually right.

Matt,

nearly 300 posts in and you expect this thread to be on topic? been on SE much?

hey matt: its a consensus--shut up, you know nothing pretentious idiot.

I'm considerably older than 30, Rhino.

And I know more than you do.

certainly true about the cable bill. as for anything else?

"KISS the downside is being exagerrated to glorify the preference. Free time? Between the taxes, home costs and tuitions, you could retire 10 years earlier in the burbs vs. Manhattan."

loved the "glorify the preference"... i'd go almost anywhere if i think it shortens the wage-slavering by that much

> Most of the people living in those affluent locales aren't in the Middle Class, and didn't move to
> the suburbs for "affordability".
> "Affordable" suburbs are NOT a 20 minute commuter train ride into Manhattan.

Given we're comparing to Manhattan, even those suburbs are relatively affordable. That was the comparison. The thread addressed was about folks comparing Manhattan subway rides.... so saying great neck is too expensive is a little wacky.

If you want to get to $400k houses, you can get there in 40 minutes on LIRR. East Meadow, 5 towns, etc.

"If you want to get to $400k houses, you can get there in 40 minutes on LIRR. East Meadow, 5 towns, etc."

The Middle Class can't afford $400,000 houses, either.

NYC, Matt, you are trying to argue points with me I never made.

Not sure what your goal is there.

"The other part is mowing the lawn/shoveling the driveway/pruning the trees/cleaning the gutters/cleaning and maintaining a house three times the size of a comparably-priced apartment in the city. "

You can also buy a condo in the suburbs... and get all those amenities, still cheaper than Manhattan. There are TONS of townhouse complexes in the suburbs if you want, or even taller buildings.

You are confusing time/distance/cost comparisons with housing type. The burbs give you the choice, Manhattan does not.

you'll need to break it down in lower-middle class (what matt refers to), middle-middle class and upper-middle class (what Rhino imho belongs to). if middle class is anybody that doesn't collect food stamps nor has a yacht, it's too big of a group to say what they can and cannot afford.

In terms of the suburbs/city comparison, I'm amazed we didn't hit the other big difference... cost of living.

Groceries, food, etc. It is freakish when I compare how much I pay for this in Manhattan vs. my folks.

"You can also buy a condo in the suburbs... and get all those amenities, still cheaper than Manhattan. There are TONS of townhouse complexes in the suburbs if you want, or even taller buildings."

Wow.

Nothing is more depressing than a condo in the suburbs. it's like the worst of both worlds.