Middle Class in NYC

And "Upper Class" is a cabin on Virgin Atlantic. Here on land, it's "Ruling Class".

"you keep using this phrase, middle class. i do not think you know the meaning of this phrase."

Me? I do. it's American households earning between $35 and $75K per year.

Matt, how many times are you going to say the same thing over and over and over again? You add nothing to the thread besides irrelevance.

Until people get it.

We all get it.

Manhattan households earning between $35 and $75K per year cannot live the same way as American households excluding Manhattan earning between $35 and $75K per year.

What a relevation! Thank you for showing us the light Matt. We all learnt a valuable truth from you.

Inconceivable.

It's an irrelevation.

Americans tend to equate money with class. I think this is where nycmatt is coming from. It is the hallmark of the middle class to focus exclusively on spending power as the measure of a person.

inconsequential.

superbad...... $100MM to $4MM in 12 months flat... superbad!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/business/economy/21inequality.html?_r=1&em

That's the schadenfreude story of the month.

Let's be realistic. I don't think a family (or even a single) making between $35 and $75K can live a "middle class" life style (comfortable residence, vehicle, annual vacation, some savings) anywhere in the NY Metro area. That amount doesn't go very far in Brooklyn, Fort Lee, Larchmont or Plainview (just a highly random list of non-Manhattan places) so if we are really dealing with this definition, this is hardly a "Manhattan only" arguement.

Calm down lizy, it's a simple construct to diminish another simple contruct. Please don't take offense or take it too seriously.

LOL at alanhart

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/mcafee-responds/

da! maltus.. das

i haven't been looking outside of manhattan recently, other than some sporadic forays into brooklyn neighborhoods, but if that is true lizyank, particularly at the $75k level, then this region is even more overpriced than i thought.

malthus, thanks. both for the this one goes to 11, and the inconceivable.

lizyank.. if you triple up w/ relatives.. it's $230K.. and all the child care you could want....

80sMan, americans traditionally have equated status with class. status was determined by occupation and education. it's only been the last couple of decades that people have thought of middle or upper class as something defined by income. even there, most people self-report as middle class, even at widely disparate income levels.

Aboutready, I hear you. Middle class is not rich and not poor, maybe 75% of america. Same goes in nyc. You're middle class if you can afford to live here, regardless of how little you save or how much debt you accumulate. The difference between poor and middle class is middle class can pack up and leave for a. Cheaper locale. Living in nyc, manhattan if possible, is one of middle class america's biggest dreams come true.

"Let's be realistic. I don't think a family (or even a single) making between $35 and $75K can live a "middle class" life style (comfortable residence, vehicle, annual vacation, some savings) anywhere in the NY Metro area."

What this means is that the New York metro area is expensive, not that it has its own scale for "middle class".

And believe it or not, there are plenty of families making between $35K and $75K living "middle class lifestyles" (whatever that means) in the New York metro area.

"whatever that means"
And with that little comment Matt you have completely proven our point.
Everyone else is defining what they mean in their discussion for the purposes of the discussion.

Americans are all over the map when it comes to class, probably because they come from all over the map. In most other countries class was defined by property ownership, and idea our founding fathers. Here, however, land is cheap. And, it turns out, so is education (in that it is widely available). So, in the end, income and buying power is the only consistent barometer in our culture.

^^oops, an idea our founding fathers endorsed.

the NYTs ran a fabulous series a few years ago, which was then compiled into a book, Class Matters.

"A team of reporters spent more than a year exploring ways that class - defined as a combination of income, education, wealth and occupation - influences destiny in a society that likes to think of itself as a land of unbounded opportunity."

that's one definition. another i've seen floating about recently is that it is a "state of mind", whatever that means. another was from MSN money, which defined middle class as enough money for all of your needs, some of your wants, with enough left over to save. matt needs to take a sociology class.

I just skipped to last page on this and wow what a crock. $35K is not middle class anywhere in America. I'm sorry, you can't even fit transportation to work in your budget on that salary.

Every time I think I have shut Matt up along comes someone new to add more fuel to Matt's ire.

"$35K is not middle class anywhere in America. I'm sorry, you can't even fit transportation to work in your budget on that salary."

Better tell the Labor Department, which classifies it as "Middle Class".

And I doubt you've been around "America" much. Most of my family lives in "middle America" on $30-40K incomes. They own nice homes, cars, and yes, even take the occasional vacation.

It's done all the time, all across America.

NYCMatt you are lying.

If your family lives on $40K, they do not own a nice car. They do not own a nice home.

I'm not denigrating your family, I say God Bless Them and I certainly hope that they can survive in these tough times. And perhaps a bit of positive thinking makes it easier so I appreciate your optimism.

"If your family lives on $40K, they do not own a nice car. They do not own a nice home."

Wow. You absolutely ARE "denigrating" my family.

My siblings are quite proud of their NICE homes, thank you very much. They may not be within commuting distance to Manhattan, and they may not be in a gated community. They may not have multi-car garages, Sub-Zero and Viking appliances, and 5,000 square feet with a bathroom for every man, woman, child, and pet.

But how dare you say that what they have isn't "nice". That is the most elitist thing I've ever seen posted on this board.

And as for cars, they own mint-condition Subarus, Hondas, and even a Cadillac ... all bought used, all paid for -- and all lovingly cared for. That's what the Middle Class does, you know -- they TAKE CARE of their possessions so they can make them last longer. Believe it or not, not everyone who makes less than six figures lives like a pig.

It was wrong of me to call you a liar. Please accept my apology.

I do believe you are too optimistic, however.

I apologize for calling you a liar.

But the truth as well all know is that $40K is not middle class. I'm not even talking about Viking Stoves, those aren't even in reach for an $80K earner.

"But the truth as well all know is that $40K is not middle class."

Try leaving Manhattan and visiting AMERICA sometime. Hell, you don't even have to leave Manhattan ... they're right HERE.

Let me tell you, $40K IS Middle Class. You apparently have never been around real Middle Class people. Or perhaps you are, and you just don't notice them.

I can see, however, how someone with your elitist sensibility wouldn't notice the teachers, cops, firefighters, nurses, nannies, and wait staff who are all around you. They pretty much just blend in like furniture, don't they?

A New York City teacher making $46K in Manhattan is struggling. Not middle class. Can't be the sole bread winner in a family. http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/SalaryBenefits/Salary/default.htm

A New York City police man making $46K in NYC is struggling. Not middle class. Can't be the sole bread winner in a family. http://www.nypdrecruit.com/

An entry level New York City firefighter making $40.5K in NYC is struggling. Not middle class. Probably needs a roommate. http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ff_salary_benefits_080106.shtml

Er, mynameris, I guess this was a bit too subtle?:
"Every time I think I have shut Matt up along comes someone new to add more fuel to Matt's ire"

Debate is American divvie.

Mynameris, do you know any of these people personally? I do.

I know a school teacher making in the $40s as the sole breadwinner, supporting a wife and two kids. They live in Sheepshead Bay in a lovely 2-bedroom rental.

I know a firefighter who lives on his own in Inwood. $1000/month for a nice one-bedroom.

I know SEVERAL cops who live in Queens and Brooklyn. Most of them are single-earner families. They're all doing just fine.

Again, I suggest expanding your network of friends. It may be outside of your comfort zone to befriend those in the lower classes, but trust me, you'll be the better for it.

But everything you have said (and Matt for that matter) has already been said.
I knwo you skipped to the last page but you really are repeating a lot.

divvie, to assume that you have "shut up" matt would be to assume that he can be flexible and follow reason. i'm just posting about class because it's one of my favorite topics. not to shut up matt, i realize those efforts would likely be futile, although it would be a nice result.

and this is simply nothing in terms of repetition compared to the rent/buy threads. matt's a toddler by those standards.

Here's what a solidly middle class family making LESS than $40K can afford in a nice suburb of Pittsburgh ... list price only $98,000:

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Harmony-Twp---Bea_PA_15003_1109225693

pittsburgh? you crack me up, really you do. pittsburgh is in horrible shape, horrible. the person making $40k there has almost zero job security. the average home in chitroit is below $12k now, and for a reason. and the person in NYC who decides this is folly and wishes to relocate would have to first find a job, and then be able to afford to buy, and be able to afford to move.

how about the suburbs of bangaldesh? any buys there, matt? how's the cable system?

"pittsburgh is in horrible shape, horrible. the person making $40k there has almost zero job security."

Says who?

The Pittsburgh job market, particularly health care and high-tech, is absolutely vibrant compared to NYC.

Seriously, try crossing the Hudson River. Just for a few days.

what the hell is your point?

my sister-in-law and her family, and my father-in-law, live in Pittsburgh. i'm there a few times a year. asshole.

And of course, I was showing you a snapshot of just ONE community ... in AMERICA ... where mynameris absolutely insists "nobody" can live on $40K.

I just showed you a home someone earning less than $35K can buy. That's BUY, not rent.

and you think four people can live happily in a 900sf walk up. sure, some can, but for most the stress is too great.

i feel so sorry for the people who have recently been sucked into buying. it's different for those who realize prices may fall further, have savings, and decide they still want to buy. but for so many people who are buying only because they now can for the first time in years, who have likely been punched in the gut and don't even realize it, i have pity.

"my sister-in-law and her family, and my father-in-law, live in Pittsburgh. i'm there a few times a year. "

My sympathies to your sister-in-law, her family, and your father-in-law. Do you show up with a clothespin on your nose, or do you keep your New York elitism to yourself?

I beg your pardon -- you probably don't even realize what a clothespin is. Let me explain: it's a middle and lower class thing, for people who can't afford clothes dryers. They hang their clothes on clotheslines (usually just a piece of rope strung between two trees, two poles, or to the house itself). Clothespins keep the clothes secure on the line: http://z.about.com/d/familycrafts/1/0/V/o/1/ct2-27_clothespin.jpg

ever see the george carlin skit about people driving... anyone driving slower or faster is a fucking idiot.... do you get that matt? or do i have to .......s.....p......e........l.......l.........i......t....................

ar, you know what is like with teens....they will contest everything you say, they just need to negate every idea that you put out there....let Matty put his ipod on and watch cribs in TV, you don't need to put him through college...

matt, you were the one suggesting earlier that if people were paying lower rents (which would be dictated by the market, of course) that they should expect little to no services from their landlords?

a regular man of the people.

"matt, you were the one suggesting earlier that if people were paying lower rents (which would be dictated by the market, of course) that they should expect little to no services from their landlords?"

Wasn't me.

really. the PCV/ST thread (actually i think it might have been a thread with a broader slant but i recall my contributions, and yours as well)? lawns and washing machines? ring a bell? because i'm happy to go find it.

mimi, matt amuses me, actually. he depresses me also, but as i can't change him, i'll have fun instead.

Please entertain us all. Go find it.

Here are a few of your PC gems. and i'll happily concede that we were discussing RS conditions, because of course the purchaser expected things to make more money so they couldn't be faulted for cutting services when their profit estimates didn't pan out. i guess you're only PC for the buyers?

Real estate is a business. If the landlord can't make ends meet because the revenue stream is too thin, he raises the rent. If the government forces him to keep the rents artificially low, he has to resort to other means to get revenue back in line with expenses.

This isn't a charity. No one has a "right" to live anywhere, particularly in homes they don't actually OWN themselves. It's a sad fact of life, but rents rise. They always have, and they always will. If you haven't allowed for those rent increases during your retirement, you have to find someplace more affordable.

Newsflash: affluent people choose to live amongst other affluent people not because of the color of their skin, but because by and large, the less-affluent people live like pigs and "bring" nothing to the neighborhood except noise and filth. Why? Because the less-affluent people, by and large, aren't looking to "bring" anything to the neighborhood -- they are of the "take" mentality, with no regard for their neighbors.

Well, let me enlighten you about running buildings that are filled with renters whose government-mandated, artificially-low rents don't cover ever-increasing building operating expenses: stuff doesn't get done because there's no money to do it.

evnyc, how do you think those "slum conditions" came about in the first place for those grandmothers? Yes, buyers know they're buying into RS buildings, but they hope they can turn the building around and restore it to profitability -- that's the idea of any real estate venture. Why would ANYONE buy a building they know they would always be losing money on? And why do you suppose the original owners were so eager to sell? Because they were losing money on it! It's simple mathematics: there isn't enough revenue to offset expenses, so the place goes to pot. What do you expect?

yuck

OK. Point? I was talking about rent control and rent stabilization -- people who don't actually pay what they should for their homes, but rather have them subsidized by the government or by the community at large vis-a-vis higher rents.

you mean the middle class? matt=fail.

matt - i like the fact that you mention the 1000s of people in NYC who are "middle-class" numerically and how they live.

but it is clear the thread is going in another direction. indivs here are discussing what it takes to be middle-class in a subjective manner, ie, the thought of living in a place (NYC, in this case) where you have reasonably good food, shelter, education, lifestyle, without constant economic fear. and based by that number the truth is $40k is very difficult to get buy anywhere in this country (def can do it rural).

before everyone jumps on matt again - remember this thread - in 20 years you will look back and realize this was a turning point in american history. the fact is, NYC, or not, the "middle class" that people once thought existed, house, 2.4 kids, cars, etc doesn't exist at the Dept of Labor's price point. and our version as new yorkers of middle class in nyc, classic 6, private school, etc (whatever it is), is also significantly more expensive today than it was years ago...

so what does this tell us about the value of our $?

i know it tells me i'm going to go buy more gold b/c lately i have had the same realization, that in the last 20 yrs, even inflation-adjusted, life is much more expensive now than before - it is clear that the inflation statistics are manipulated

I mean people who sponge off the government and landlords.

"so what does this tell us about the value of our $?"

Read Ron Paul's book, "The Revolution: a Manifesto". It explains precisely how we've been screwed over by the creation of the Federal Reserve.

and of course you decide who's a sponger and who's not. wonderful.

matt, who cares? you're nasty.

1234, inflation is now being offset by deflation. they both exist. think of how high gas prices were last year. not so now. does that mean the grocery store has lowered its egg price? not necessarily, maybe even increased, but gas is still cheaper. in the end we have a huge liquidity excess, which must show up somewhere. now it's showing up in the dollar and still commodities, although they show weakness. prices will indeed increase, but most likely only for certain things. the consumer simply doesn't have it in them to pay more. which is why the real implosion will likely occur. too much money, nowhere to do anything productive with it. and a consumer who can't support it.

NYCMatt, I believe that families drying their clothes on a clothesline, unless done for earthy or organic reasons, are not in the middle class in America. They don't need a Bosch drier as you suggested is the delineation between middle and upper, but a clothes drier is a standard middle-class American appliance. Less is not in the middle class.

Been on a train. No cell battery. Have had Matt on ignore. You should all join me. Before he distracted people this was a more interesting discussion on what budgets work in Manhattan and what the pros and cons were for suburban life on said budgets. What does a 25 year old who lies about his family and apartment, and can't appreciate any nuance whatsoever add to this?

It is also untrue that Rent Stabilization does anything but lower profits for landlord owners.

Similarly, shoplifting does not cause the honest person to pay more, it causes the store to earn less.

"Similarly, shoplifting does not cause the honest person to pay more, it causes the store to earn less."

If you believe this, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

you are beyond stupid... do you think that landlords would charge less if they're weren't RS units in their building? are you a complete moron? why would they charge less than they can get? you are a complete idiot.

"you are beyond stupid... do you think that landlords would charge less if they're weren't RS units in their building? are you a complete moron? why would they charge less than they can get? you are a complete idiot."

Um, who is suggesting that landlords would charge less?

you...you dumb shit.

who gets hurt from RS, you fucking moron?

matt has limited vision. envision this. all RS/RC apartments market rate tomorrow. what happens to the landlords?

Alternative definition of the middle class: the people who pay the bulk of collected taxes and who buy most of the goos and services. In other words the middle class takes advantage of easy credit to buy stuff they feel they need. That said middle class encompases a wide swath of incomes and educations but a singular mindset.

Nyc certainly can make the middle class feel poor and often does. Hence a lot of hate towards the truly poor.

I posted the following link in the unemployment thread too. I think the middle class will suffer the most.
http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2009/08/24/more-prime-borrowers-who-fall-behind-arent-catching-up/

The middle class were the appetizers, main course and dessert of the credit/housing bubble. Absolutely looted by banks and businesses. Wonder what we'll have to show for it in 5,10 years?

Hm, growing up we were definitely middle class, owned a drier, and yet still used our clothesline in the backyard... And I know lots of people who did the same, even doctors' families, like our neighbors...

maybe people can use this definition ----->
middle class encompasses the following occupations / jobs which have been considered middle class for the last 100 years+ (and their requisite average incomes) but is not limited to these occupations:

teacher
school principal
nurse
police officer
fire department
plumber
social worker
librarian
accountant
electrician
secretary/exec ass't
grocery store manager
subway, bus, train driver/conductor
professor

Matt, you are desperately needed here:
http://www.urbanbaby.com/talk/posts/51257013

Please go over and educate them.

HHI, in case you did not know Matt is HouseHold Income. Pardon their slightly inaccurate acronyms. Maybe you could correct them on that one too.

While you're at it Matt, could you also provide your opinion on whether any of these people were middle class at the time?
http://www.urbanbaby.com/talk/posts/51265687

"HHI, in case you did not know Matt is HouseHold Income. Pardon their slightly inaccurate acronyms. "

I'll try.

BTW, how is your DH? How many DCs? Do you get along well with MIL?

matt, i'm fairly certain that my DH is just as important to me as your boytoy. those people you are denigrating ARE the people you've been talking about. you don't need to cross the hudson to find something you're not accustomed to, you just need to have an open mind. although...

My point exactly, AR.

right, matt, as long as they buy.