Buying in extremely small coop

depends on the specifics in the contract. boilerplate says appliances in working order. not sure how you would know short of running some clothes through a cycle?

Oh dear, & I feel responsible here 'cause I repeated that nonsense about an informational board meeting not once but TWICE. GGGRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......... Yes, Trompiloco, all due diligence must be done BEFORE you sign that contract. Once you sign that contract, generally your only out will be to forfeit your deposit. The board can reject you but if you change your mind, it will cost you your deposit.

Hey guys, calm down! I don't work in RE but I work in close contact with attorneys. I know that my signature in a contract is binding and intend to do all the learning, unearthing of information, PE inspection and whatnot before that point. I just didn't know the exact name/sequence of the steps.

Tromp - one other thing - please print out this whole thread and show it to your wife (f you haven't done that already)

"work in close contact with attorneys" - what exactly does that mean? I thought you are a court interpreter; close contact with attorneys,probably, (criminal, civil, etc.) but not the same as actually hiring a real estate attorney to advise you.

ph41, of course I will hire a RE attorney. Pleeeze.

Come on Tromp - you didn't say if you've shown this thread to your wife. Have you?

Where is Jazzman? I'm sure we can both point out at least a couple of dozen players in the NY RE scene who always think the signing of the contract is simply the start of round 2 of negotiations.........

I don't want to give anyone any "bright ideas", but a contract is really only as good as the person who signs it. In general, it's way too expensive to litigate over contract issues, so whoever the bigger scumbag is wins, no matter what the contract actually says.

30yrs - this thread is about "normal" people - not the "players", who are not posting on SE

And 30yrs - since your words of wisdom are taken very seriously on SE, some real estate neophyte might take you seriously and think that OF COURSE THEY CAN negotiate after signing the contract. Disaster in the making.

In most apt. sales, neither party is "the bigger scumbag" to quote 30 yrs. That is, neither has the resources or is in a position to pay for and wait for litigation over the contract. Thus, the terms of the contract do generally bind the parties and are followed. Of course, if something goes terribly wrong then the cost/benefit analysis of litigation may shift for one party. But when it is just two individuals buying and selling a normal unit, the contract is the contract. In the super high end with rich people, in sales where a corporation or business in a party (e.g., sponsor), they can absorb litigation fees and the delay more easily, so yes, there is more potential for trouble. But in the situation we're discussing here, the contract will be the contract in all likelihood.

Hey, I qualified it with "I don't want to give anyone any "bright ideas", "

but you'd be surprised how often it happens in small deals as well. I have a friend who's ex-wife worked for a small mostly RE practice in Flushing. The toughest part of her job was that she was constantly getting (this is her relating the story, so don't pin any racism on me) Chinese clients who had signed a contract to purchase something coming in and saying that they changed their mind and wanted their money back and couldn't understand when she said "YOU SIGNED A CONTRACT".

I also know of plenty of guys in "my end of the business" (buying and selling foreclosures) who are just as bad as the big guys, and this is pertinent because (and this really isn't in my best interest to say, because it could come back to bite me in the ass) you REALLY have to watch who you are dealing with when it comes to buying from foreclosure flippers. I know PLENTY who are flipping their "Terms of Sale" purchase agreement on properties they bought on the steps, but they write a standard Contract of Sale to the purchaser without including the Terms of Sale and banking on being able to dance around the foreclosing bank's attorneys for a while. one of the things which ruined my business to some extent was guys coming in and out bidding us simply because they never intended to close and would try and flip, and if they couldn't, jerk the bank's attorneys around until they got their deposit back. this made things tough for us in other ways, too, since as the result of this bad behavior by these assholes, many attorneys for the foreclosing banks started to include ridiculous terms (like that the sale on a Coop was not conditioned on Board Approval. Well, WTF are you going to sell me in return for my $ if i don't get a stock and lease from the Coop?). Sometimes (like in the case of Citibank) it was almost funny, since it seemed like each month they added a new term to there terms of sale (I remember at one point they were up to like 41 terms), and you could see exactly why each term was added: something had blown up and they added a term to fix it. but you had terms which ended up contradicting each other, "lying" (they had a term which said "we have contacted the managing agent and the Coop does not allow investors. If you get rejected because you are an investor, you forfeit your deposit". Now, firstly, they hadn't contacted the managing agent, had no idea what the maintenance arrears, etc, were, but the term was in every sale, even for those Coops which DID allow investors, etc.)

ph41, I've shown this thread to my wife. You've got my word (for all that's worth in an anonymous RE board)

My last post wasn't intended to contradict 30yrs, but rather underscore what is probable versus what is possible. Foreclosures are exactly the type of not-typical sale I referred to. As a general truism in the law, the more you deviate from the norm, the more risk. I wouldn't say most estate sales are much of a deviation, but foreclosures are. Clean deals are the surest. The more muck, the more headaches. Foreclosure = muck.

kyle - you do post well, but sometimes you just seem to expand, enormously,redundantly,ad infinitum, on previous, quite clear, posts. WHY

You speak truth, 30yrs, KW, ph41. Small fry tend to "honor" contracts. Reminds me being told by contractors that the hardest people to chase down for $100 were the $$$ guys. As in, my name is Donald Trump and you know I'm good for $200. Oh, by the way, if you want to get paid, you have to start on the next project for free.

In the late 80's I managed the Downtown sales office for J.I. Sopher. I could tell a lot of stories but I'll stick to one (ok, 2: I beat the piss out of him in State Supreme after they terminated me: I think it was the shock of his life). Ok, so to get your agents paid as a manager, you had to sit in front of Hank Sopher, who wanted to go over every single fucking check paid out to an agent to see if he could chisel them. So, once every couple of weeks, I had to head up to the Upper East Side office (headquarters) and sit in front of Hank and get my agent's checks signed. One time I waited for almost 45 minutes while he argued with some supplier over something like $13 on light bulbs. Now, what was 45 minutes of this guy's time worth? But he was willing to spend that time arguing over $13.

Gee, I wonder why every time we had to order business cards, it had to be from a different printer...........

Yep, 30yrs. I've heard of similar things about principals of various development projects in town from reliable sources. Wouldn't touch their condos with a bargepole. Who knows what shortcuts they took? Me, I'm very conscious of the small guys - the LAST people I would owe would be people who need it the most.

I think the point KW was trying to make is that the little guy doesn't have endless time & money (and a team of lawyers on retainer or on staff) to litigate things that should have been in the contract. You sign it & chances are, that's what you're 'stuck' with.

Found this great old thread while looking for information on the perils of self-managing a building. I feel like there must an old SE thread on the pros and cons of self-managing a coop. Anyone?

The market may not be deep enough to merit development costs (or maybe it exists already and I'm just ignorant) but I would think a comprehensive software package for Coops/Condos to self manage would be a great idea.

I self managed my condo for a few years, but it wasn't entirely by choice (small new construction, developer sold out and then ditched us) . I don't recommend self-managing unless you have multiple owners truly willing to donate their time and it can take a lot of time depending on what is going on in the building. There is also a lot of regulatory concerns that come up, and very poor communication from the city. For example, a new requirement is passed- no one communicates this to the building and the next time the DOB or other agency is in the building, you are on the hook if they find it.

30, how would you envision software helping a self-managed building? Curious as we are largely self-managed (and terrible at it).

1) There is an awful lot of the accounting side which can be close to fully automated,
2) A good building communication system (which a lot of buildings have some version of. Take a look at 350Bleecker.com),
3) A stream of new regulations

Like UptownSpecialist mentioned, from any city agency, along with a knowledge base of all existing regs,
4) a database of contractors for both capital and emergency repairs including not only ratings but a knowledge base of costs for standard items (like replacing a toilet wax ring, or an air vent on a steam radiator, etc),
5) an automated system for scheduling and keeping notes for Board/Annual Meetings,
I'm sure there are a lot more but I'm not spec'ing out the system here and now - besides that's exactly the type of thing I get paid hourly for (lol/not lol)

The accounting side is easy. Even if you consider apartment combinations, special assessments, splitting of shares or licensing agreements for common elements, etc- this is all reasonably easy to build. Before I worked in real estate, I spent a long career on Wall Street- including a period at a hedge fund administrator that also ran PnL for funds in the Software as a Service model- which is far more compex to build out the accounting for. More important would be the regulatory, contractors, etc. that 30 yrs suggested. If someone could do it right, make it easy to use and at a price where it makes sense for buildings to self manage- the software developers would probably do pretty well. That said- that is a huge ask. The other issue is that you really do want someone to advise as a subject matter expert when you come across difficult issues that remove the board members from the process- i.e. default leading to foreclosure, other fights where the issue is first directed (and hopefully resolved) before it evolves and gets awkward causing too many of the owners to fight. Software can help - but it might not be the right solution for many buildings considering this choice.

I would love a stream of information on the regulator changes, because it does seem the case that things change and we aren't informed. I can see why other buildings could use some of the features you list.

Oh, for heaven's sake. 350 Bleecker's communications look good until one actually has to process a purchase application, and then some document that one might want isn't available, or one has a question about how to deal with a document, and there's no one to answer the phone. (BTDT).
IMHO, the buildings with the best quality of life are the ones with the best resident managers, who answer phone/email when you need them, not the semi-automated ones. (I am now thinking specifically of that managing agency who boasts about how good their tech is, sends a lot of sub-tasks out-of-state, and then botches them). While I realize it's hard to find a managing agent for a small building, I think a better solution would be for a bunch of small buildings to associate with each other and give the whole portfolio as a job to a decent managing agent.

How much do you think a decent managing agent providing the service of the best resident managers would charge for a portfolio of ten 5 to 12 unit buildings?

The database of contractors is the area where I feel ill equipped to self-manage. I feel like we have options for accounting and communication and regulatory, but without being a volume purchaser for those contractors that are essential to maintaining the building and its systems, I am not confident we could get anyone to show up. I like the idea of buildings associating and am going to explore that with a few other individuals who I know on the boards of other buildings in the neighborhood. If/when I make any progress, I will report back on the amount one has to pay to lure a competent professional into the space.

Between the loss of business from the rent law changes and the renovation business generally crapping out due to the market, it wouldn't surprise me if at least a few GCs didn't start trying to push service contracts to buildings to generate some revenue.

30, Contractors are incredibly busy and there is a shortage of workers. I think strong economy and new buildings / hotels coming up are more than offsetting rent law change impact. Eventually, as the new buildings are completed 1-2 years away, and I expect the construction to slow down.

"Contractors we are working with have laid off 70% of their workers."
@ 8:22
https://medium.com/@noahrosenblatt/talking-manhattan-the-catalyst-team-at-compass-fe3f56320ede

I will be calling the broker and getting their contractor names.

BTW If you watch the entire podcast above there is some misinformation given. Rent Stabilized landlords will NOT be reducing services because they can't by law or they will get hit with "Reduction of Services" complaints and fines. Example: When 2 5th had fully automatic elevators, but even after converting to Coop had to have elevator operators who would stand in the elevators all day/night and just push the buttons for people because due to non-purchasing RS/RC tenants if they got rid of them the building would have gotten hit with Reduction of Service penalties.