Congestion Pricing and Alternate Side Parking

agreed...but even at, say, 2000 per month rent, that's 35K in pretax, with nuttin else in the way of middle class acoutrements--frilly stuff like med care, clothing, heat, internet, education---what is household income for the US middle-class?--that income goes a long way in many places, in NYC it does shlt for a family household

and inonada---tell us a bit about your world--lotta opining but nuttin on you--do you live in a rent controlled or stabilized apt?--you raisin up kids here in nyc?--what do you provide your kids?--

your attempts to portray those trying to provide a middle class lifestyle for their families in NYC as petit bourgeois speak of a lack of knowledge and a truly selfissh perspective

Re: Maybe you live in Jersey and haven't noticed how taxis never pull over to the curb to pick up/drop off passengers causing major back ups. Maybe you haven't noticed that they are the worst drivers and are the #1 cause of accidents in Manhattan both with other cars and with bikes. And I guess you've never seen a cab cut off tons of cars and crossover multiple lanes to pick up a passenger.

WEST34, as in the street, get it?

"major cause of backups". Backups of WHAT? rickshaws? donkey carts? Oh, let me guess, OTHER cars! And why are there so many private cars (most occupied by a single douchebag or douchebagette on a cellphone) driving around Manhattan when there are cabs, buses, and subways that go EVERYWHERE?

Give me a break. Limiting the number of street congesting, smog producing, going nowhere fast, douchebag-filled, private CARS in Manhattan should be the goal.

Charge a $50 toll to every non-commercial vehicle entering Manhattan!

30 years...as a proud and loving pet parent and animal adoption volunteer I so agree that PETA and PITA are one and the same and I ain't referring to pocket bread.

'Charge a $50 toll to every non-commercial vehicle entering Manhattan!'

Actually I don't disagree with that.
Force commuters to take public transportation or tax them to the moon.

But taxis are a cancer.

"So tell me, my Fab Four boughrite, what does it take to lead a middle-class lifestyle in your NYC. You know, decent shelter, a car for the household, decent edumacation, food, etc.? Do you lead such a lifestyle? How much does it take? No need for specifics, just the nearest $100K. Are you scraping by on $300K as well? Is your $500 per month parking but a small fraction of the cost of your middle-class car?"

I will attempt to oblige, with specifics. I was raised on Sutton Place. When we moved to Queens in 1973, our Manhattan friends felt sorry for us, even though we were doing it to give our kids a better lifestyle. Eventually, I felt sorry for our friends -- cramped apartments they couldn't afford to move out of; mandatory playdates; one overpriced afterschool activity after another; the humiliating rat race for private school and the equivalent of a year's college tuition for the privilege; living with constant noise and dirt everywhere.

We lived in Forest Hills for 25 years, then moved to a smaller house in Bayside. Our house in FH had 5 bedrooms, 4 bathrooms, living room w/ FP, FDR, eat-in kitchen, office, sunroom, laundry room, TV room, 2-car garage and a 60x90 fenced-in backyard. You could probably buy that house today for a little more than $1MM. The taxes are probably now up to around $7K/year. Or you could buy a real mansion in the beautiful community of Forest HIlls Gardens for $2MM+. You could also buy a 2 BR/ 2 bath prewar apartment in Rego Park/FH for under $500K. Same good schools and great neighborhood.

Our house in Bayside has 3 bedrooms, 2-1/2 bathrooms, eat-in kitchen, FDR, living room,TV room, playroom for visiting grandchildren,laundry room, 1-car garage and 30x50 backyard. You could buy a house like this today for $750K. Our taxes are $4500/year. We own two cars but don't pay anything for parking. Bigger houses on bigger lots in Bayside/Doug Manor go up to $2MM. Smaller houses in Bayside start at about $400K.

Our children went to various Queens public and private schools, depending on their situations. Each went on to an excellent university (2 Ivies and UW-Madison). I have heard that the most expensive private school in Queens today runs about $10K a year per child. If parents educate themselves about the school system, they can put their kids in the best public schools here for free. (And don't worry, contrary to what I've seen expressed on this board, your little darling will not be murdered in cold blood in a Queens middle school.) Most of the kids play out in the street or in the schoolyard after school, or ride their bikes, or play hoops or other sports in the park a few blocks away. There is a playground that has a water park in the summer. Because education was free or relatively inexpensive, we could afford to "culturize" our kids, take them to theatres and concerts, give them lessons, send them to summer camp, etc. Back in the day, we did that on one income.

When we lived in Forest Hills, the E/F express train was a few blocks away and 20-25 minutes to midtown. In Bayside, I walk to the LIRR station or to a bus that takes me to the Main St station of the 7 train. Once you get on the train, the LIRR trip is 26 minutes to Penn Station. The cheaper $2.25 MTA option takes 20 minutes on the bus to Main Street, then another half hour to midtown.

I was spoiled in Forest Hills by all the great shopping and other amenities. It's a more urban environment than Bayside. Everything was a 5-minute walk away. That is not the case in Bayside. I can still walk to a shopping center, the post office, the library, but they are longer walks. As I mentioned yesterday, we do our real shopping in Nassau now.

Food shopping is easier and a lot cheaper than in Manhattan. We have supermarkets, butchers, real bagel stores, ethnic specialty shops. Our community board just approved Fairway's application to open a gigantic store in Douglaston. When I have to buy food in a Manhattan grocery store, I can't belive how high the prices are.

I know y'all think that Queens is the borough that gives you your nannies, but my neighbors have many occupations. Thinking of just some of the people who live around here, there's doctors, lawyers, teachers, college professors, a plumber, an executive chef, an electrician, a stock broker, a dentist, a Greek Orthodox priest, a musician, a bank executive, a secretary, a bank teller,a cab driver,an insurance agent, a librarian, a handyman, a husband & wife private detective agency, cops,firefighters and corrections officers. No nannies that I know of. My neighbors are unpretentious people who take care of their property and look out for each other. They don't believe they're worthless because they don't live in Manhattan. We know almost everyone within a quarter of a mile of our house. Children who grow up here experience true diversity.

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to give you a full picture. I can't quantify in $$$ what it takes to live better than decently in the "Outer [Mongolia] Boroughs" but I think you can get an idea from this. We have always lived in relatively affluent nabes, but folks are living quite nicely on less money in other areas.

I first started looking at StreetEasy last spring because we were thinking of buying an apartment in Manhattan. Six months of reading these posts has convinced me we're better off moving to a big apartment in Queens.

Ubottom, I don't have any kids and pay market rent. As a couple we have a difficult time spending more than what an income of $300K could afford (including accounting for saving away a reasonable amount for retirement). The size of our place can more than comfortably hold 2-3 kids if we were ever so blessed. Our apartment is about as nice as I can bear without feeling like a greedy schmuck, we have a fine car that we garage, we eat out more often than I should health-wise, take cabs whenever we want, do trips and vacations whenever we want on a whim. I have also lived for years on a $20-25K income without feeling like I'm missing much. I understand that kids would increase expenses in some areas of our life, but they would decrease in others. Net-net, another $50K income would make it quite comfortable again.

What pisses me off is that every day I see real middle class people going about with their lives and children. They make choices. Maybe the live in Manhattan, but in a less desireable
place. Maybe they send their kids to private school, but that's it. Maybe they vacation lots, but live in (gasp!) Queens. Being middle class does not mean living in the most expensive place in the country and getting everything you want. If you opened your eyes a bit, you'd see them as well. Realize that the median household income in Manhattan is about $50K. These people are not living on the other side of the world from you.

You want it all, and you want the government to do things that net benefit you. Screw that. The government needs to help the real middle class. You know, the family living in your neighborhood on $120K pre-tax. Kids in private school? NOT an option. Those "bad" public schools are filled with kids, you know. Save for retirement? Deal with it later. Paying $5K a year for parking? NOT an option. New car whose annual cost would make $5K a year just a small portion of the expense? HAHAHAHAHAHA.

So this poor schlup lives in the city because that's where he's always been with his extended family, his parents, etc. It's home. His poor wife schleps to podunk NJ every stinkin' day to bring home some money. A garage is not an option, so she schedules her life around the bi-weekly 8AM shuffle because she has NO OTHER CHOICE. Now you want come along and get rid of alternate side parking. Then you, me, and every other rich a-hole in the city parks our car in the street weeks at a time because if we can save $5K a year, why not? We rarely have to deal with finding parking. Meanwhile, where does that leave poor wife? In the garage, paying $5K a year. Nice policy.

So what's your story? Market rent or controlled/stabilized? How many kids, and what level of spending for your middle-class lifestyle?

Thanks, General. Very informative, and I would like very much to hear more from you in the future as the Manhattan-centric view on this site gets a bit old after a while.

So are you saying all of Queens does not look like that crud Manhattanites see on their way out to the Hamptons on the Jitney? Prime areas are not on the LIE? What the hell is the picture here all about -- I'm confused!!!:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Hills_Gardens,_Queens

How much for a house like that? Buy vs. rent? How about on that hypothetical $1M place in FH?

BTW, I think you want to play up crime or filth or something in Outer Mongolia as you're painting too pretty a picture. Otherwise, the neo-Manhattanites might infiltrate your beloved neighborhood and start bemoaning the cost of living. You know, how hard it is to scrape by in Forest Hills Gardens. Thankfully for you, no amount of BMW goodness could ever wash away the shame they would feel to their friends for living in Queens. So my advice to you is to leave the crazy Manhattanites with their skewed sense of entitlement in Manhattan and let sleeping dogs lie.

General: how do you justify your low RE taxes in Queens vs. what a similarly-valued condo/house/co-op would pay in Manhattan? My RE taxes would be half what they are for a place of identical value in Queens.

BTW, Forest Hills & Bayside have great housing stock. I believe much of FH is landmarked, not sure about Bayside. Little Neck has good publics as well.

basically the city is outright raping motorists for cash. unapologetically, and in plain sight.

"Basically the city is outright raping motorists for cash. unapologetically, and in plain sight."

So get rid of the car. Problem solved.

get rid of the rape in an intelligent way--
accomodate residents and jack the tolls for those who dont pay the incredibly hi local taxes we do
agree that many parts of queens are excellent places to live and raise a family
ionada, no time for the level of detail you have provided, i appreciate your candor, but suffice it to say i dont even get near qualifying for rent stb let alone control, and given what i think you indicated, i pay at least 5 time the taxes you do, happily, in general, i might add--my good fortune has benefitted disproportionately from that which we all pay for, including enforcement of useless alt side parking rules
when i have more time--I work normal hours and parent two kids on my own--ill try to provide more detail
the last thing i want is a freebee--cant stand having my qol screwed up by illconceived crap like alt side--we disagre as to the efficacy of alt side--end

no one bit on this--?? this is going on all over the city--4 cops hiding out to give tickets, adding to traffic, where one directing traffic would improve for all--my bet is the cost of the 4 hiding cops more than offests the revs from the tickets they write--net one cop directing trafffic would be far cheaper and traffic would flow better

next item: cops hiding at intersections like 124 and third ave, that spring out to write tickets for
those stuck in"the box" or making illegal turns--both nearly impossible to avoid, esp given that the cops engaging this are causing the worst traffic jams seen ever at this intersection..i yelled at four cops yesterday (on way to watch a child's soccer game on randall's isle yesterday, you know middle class shit) that it would take only one to direct traffic and that would fix the problem..i ended up apologizing when the cop said they'd heard that from hundreds of people and had begged their supervisors to assign them otherwise...the cop said he felt terrible causing seriious traffic and then ticketing drivers as they dealt...

Here, I'll bite:

That cop should be fired for sharing his personal opinion with you, rather than his employer's goal to enforce the law (if he has to share anything of the sort while he's on duty, with someone who is a customer, not a friend).

Cops are ticketing people who break the law ... it's impossible to get "stuck" in the box unless you're getting out of the way of an emergency vehicle. If you don't have a full car-length in front of you when you get to the crosswalk, you don't enter the box. The overwhelming majority of drivers manage that. The few that don't can cause gridlock in all directions for blocks and blocks. Learn it, live it, and get mad at other drivers who don't ... they're the ones causing your delay.

that cop should not be fired--he is entitled to express his personal opinion--he was properly executing his job as directed--i am not a customer of the police i am a fellow citizen subject to their enforement of laws, such that i may be the target of said enforcement or the beneficairy of enforcement where a crime has affected me--tell a cop youre a customer, and you'll get a hearty laugh--i suppose then the curstomer's alweays right

i was not ticketed but observed several who were unfairly--in these cases they had properly anticipated getting through the light but got stuck in the box after a cop stopped the person in front of them--had the cop not stopped the person in front of them (which was impossible for them to anticipate) they would not have gotten stuck in the box-- you dont drive so you dont understand that one needs to anticipate properly that it will be possible to get through the box based on observed conditions--there is nothing one can do to anticipate a cop popping out from behind a phone booth and stopping the car in front--to be awarded a ticket under these circumstances is ludicrous--this crap as I said caused the worst northbound 3rd ave traffic i have ever seen in 45 years of accessing the tboro via this route--other drivers were not remotely causing my delay--the four cops blocking traffic and ticketing were--

laws cannot describe all conditions they regulate--laws require intelligent enforcement--enforcement that effects the intended objective of the law--here the objective is to prevent blockage of traffic--yet in this case the unintelligent enforcement caused the very problem that the law was designed to prevent--got it? life's not so cut and dry as you apperently think and would like to think in circumstances of which you clearly have little experience or understanding

and if the whole load of crap is justified as a rev producer, it fails ther too as i have described above

you bit yourself...ouch

I do drive.

I don't block the box, because I don't anticipate whether I'll be able to clear it. I advance if I have a green light AND there's room for my car on the other side of the intersection. I'm hardly alone in doing so. It's not very difficult. And if I got sloppier than that in my driving habits, I wouldn't go around blaming anyone else, least of all the Police Dept and/or DOT.

I suggest you travel with a large motorcade to prevent such things from happening in the future.

I'll add that I, too, garage my car in Manhattan. But not during the winter, when the cost and nuisance of keeping the car exceeds the enjoyment I get from it ... it gets sent to a friend's driveway out of state for the season. It's easier than cursing the weather and how unfair it is that it inconveniences me, and how the City should install heaters all along the walk between my garage and home.

so you wait until there is actually room for your car beyond the intersection prior to proceeding? you mustn't get very far, and you certianly don't have any friends behind you...are you oblivious to the chorus of honking that follows you around? one at a time now...wow...you are very much alone in this thank God

"It's easier than cursing the weather and how unfair it is that it inconveniences me, and how the City should install heaters all along the walk between my garage and home."

how lucky that you have a friend who allows you to park in their driveway during the winter..most car owners appreciate having their car during inclement weather..we turn the heaters in our cars on.. and we walk the streets all the time with no worry re street heaters..doesn't the lack of street heaters and cold weather piss you off when walking to the subway or bus? how bout when running out for a quart of milk? somebody should be fired over this!!

we'll simply have to disgree re the street heaters along with all the rest

I think street heaters are an EXCELLENT IDEA...ditto outside heat blasters ala the misters they use in Phoenix in the summer. This would solve my problem that I can live only in New York but I loathe the weather five months out of the year.

Or they should just cover over the Hudson River in the winter, for my convenience, so the cold winds don't blow off of it.

Phoenix balances their summertime misters with wintertime gas-fired firepits here and there in the outdoor sections of bars and restaurants.

Please tell me that's not where you spent your Western exile years. Or if so why.

im pissed the city doesnt provide chauffered limos for all
wonderboy has one..why cant we all?

who? me...spent my exile in boulder..and alta utahhhhhhh
not a desert guy

I meant Liz. But I like Boulder ... nice walkable town, where you don't really need a car.

"I have to stand up for my fellow "B&T dickwads" who pay taxes here and are supposed to have the same rights that Manhattan residents do. Congestion pricing and tolls on East River bridges are taxes on citizens of NYC.

I spent most of my life as one of those "B&T dickwads" and that still doesn't make bad ideas any better.

> are supposed to have the same rights that Manhattan residents do.

And, with congestion pricing, they would. Manhattanites would also pay to drive int he congestion zone.
If tolls are used as an inferior process, you'd have the same right as a manhatannite to drive across it and pay that toll.

I'm not sure why you think you're entitled to special treatment.

"Those lame ideas were defeated by representatives of New Yorkers in other boroughs, who saw them for what they really were."

Yes, they saw them as ideas that would absolutely work, but would cost the specific representatives some of their perks.

It was NOT a good move for the people living in those boroughs.

> There should be a few free bridges left for folks who can't afford to pay tolls.

Thats stupid. If you can't afford a car, don't drive a car. Which means that taking money from tolls and putting it into public transportation - what most of the people who ACTUALLY need help use.

The "protect the poor drivers" stuff is a fraud. The folks who need the help need the MTA to be better. The folks doing the yelling are the fatcats who don't want to lose their subsidies on their government cars!

> BTW, high tolls haven't seemed to keep the "B&T dickwads from NJ & LI" out of the city,
> so maybe they aren't an effective deterrent?"

Completely false premise.... meaning the opposite is true!

Fact is, the majority of traffic in the city from the counts are from folks in the boroughs! The studies on car sources last year showed that city folks and government employees were the bulk of the cars.

So, it actually works!

And if you don't think they're enough of a deterrent, then support making them higher.

And most would agree no comparison between being driven/driving self in luxury/exotic car to office in own car vs sitting/standing on a decrepit, smelly, hot train/bus very close to many hygienically-challenged "pals" and potential muggers...mass transit is nominally "cheap" for many reasons....sort of like public housing...

"And most would agree no comparison between being driven/driving self in luxury/exotic car to office in own car vs sitting/standing on a decrepit, smelly, hot train/bus very close to many hygienically-challenged "pals" and potential muggers..."

You're right.

Subway generally gets you there MUCH faster than any car, exotic, chauffeured, or otherwise.

there you are wonderboy...youve been lurking

boulder legislated a limited growth greenbelt policy in the mid70's iblieve...worked like a chrmi to keep boulder charmiing...unlike denver a sprawl of sheetrock palaces...unintended effect was to jack prop vals..so the plan got neutered roound 2000, and there bee more sprwling of recent..but the town is run thoughtfully and is a great place to live..itd be tough without a car..distances lergely bikeable, pub transport ok at best..lotsa snow

Not to worry Alan, my Western exile was spent in Montana...talk about a fish out of water, especially in those pre-cable, pre-internet days...long story best told over alcohol. However, I have spent a lot of time in Phoenix on business as well as traveling through there several times on the way to much nicer vacation destinations such as Sedona. (No sweat lodges thankfully).

"I believe much of FH is landmarked"

I think you may be talking about Forest Hills Gardens, where even the streets are private.

> Subway generally gets you there MUCH faster than any car, exotic, chauffeured, or otherwise.

absolutely. I've actually thought about the personal driver thing from time to time.
But nothing beats getting to yankee stadium in 15 minutes....

"Subway generally gets you there MUCH faster than any car, exotic, chauffeured, or otherwise. "

And it gets you there much dirtier, smellier and grossed out. Too many poors and depressed looking freaks on that run down filthy subway for me to stomach after a nice meal at Daniel.

There is no rush in the first place.

"Subway generally gets you there MUCH faster than any car, exotic, chauffeured, or otherwise. "

How about if you live on East End Ave and your Grandmother lives in Cooperative Village? Or you live on Perry & West and you want to get to 5th and 91st? Or you live in Trump Tower and want to get to BPC? or...........

> There is no rush in the first place.

Only if you don't have much to do.

I personally have better things to do than spend my time in transit.

"How about if you live on East End Ave and your Grandmother lives in Cooperative Village? Or you live on Perry & West and you want to get to 5th and 91st? Or you live in Trump Tower and want to get to BPC? or..........."

cab.

but, if you have money for a driver, what the hell are you doing with grandma in co-op village?

gonna be a dental floss tycoon

soon

"And it gets you there much dirtier, smellier and grossed out."

Oh! You must be one of those boys who gyrates on the subway floors to the tunes of a beat-up boom box, while your younger brother hustles the other passengers for money.

"How about if you live on East End Ave and your Grandmother lives in Cooperative Village? Or you live on Perry & West and you want to get to 5th and 91st? Or you live in Trump Tower and want to get to BPC? or..........."

What is it about the word "generally" that you don't understand?

"Subway generally gets you there MUCH faster than any car, exotic, chauffeured, or otherwise. "

Speak for yourself.

I now live on the Far West Village, and it is usually faster (and not to mention - far more private/pleasant/civilized) driving up the West Side Highway in my fabulously expensive lux car to my section of Midtown than making the trek all the way to the subway station in my designer shoes, walking down like a rat and inhaling germs/offensive smells with subway riders and arriving at my destination freezing/sweating/sporting an ungodly stench.

Scratch that, it's *much* faster.

"making the trek all the way to the subway station in my designer shoes,"

and they don't get ruined in the rain/snow. hell, you probably SAVE money with the car, driving and parking if you take into account all those ruined shoes.

"given what i think you indicated, i pay at least 5 time the taxes you do"

OK, now I'm really confused. I mention that we have a hard time spending more than what can be afforded with a $300K income. You interpret this to mean that my income is $300K, not any higher. A bit presumptuous, but OK, let's go with that. You figure I pay something like $100K in taxes, so if you're paying at least 5x that, we're talking at least $500K in taxes. This amounts to an annual income of at least $1M? I hope I'm just misunderstanding you, not that you consider that middle class.

actually no presumption made, just working with your language
were you to make just the minimum 300k you have indicated, and if you had kids (which you dont), you would know well what it is to be middle-class here in NYC (youd be the richest guy in most towns with your minimum 300K), and you would likely need to use a car to service your family in the most expedient way, to provide typical lifestyle and opportunity that is available to middle-class families throughout the us--not about income, about taking decent care of your family--were all this the case (and yes your language indicates you make at least 300k a year)alt side parking would seem to you a pain in the asz for yours and many families in your position, and you would have a similar mindset that alt side effects nothing positive for anyone but those who dont work normal hours and are able to benefit from the system--betcha those folk pay very little tax relative to double income 300k households with a kid or two
my message is that i dont get or want anything for free--responding to comments that all i want is my personal freebee-i am an unabashed liberal dem who is pleased to pay serious taxes and do--i cant stand when my qol and the qol of many from all walks of life in nyc are impacted by hairbrained shit like alt side--and the bourgeois limo lib crap is just that--i talk the talk and walk the walk--that i have a decent income is not relevant--what's relevant is that isee my relative superior benefit from all our taxes pay for and support progressive taxation to account for this--happy to pay more and at a higher rate than those not as lucky (key word lucky) as i have been--and my good luck could reverse and then some at any time

For me personally, street parking is a pain (alt side or not) and paying for a garage is a relatively affordable luxury. Favorite feature: being able to have the car hand washed by the guys in the garage rather than schlepping to and spending time at garage.

Still amazed by the statement that you are middle class despite making 20x the median household income of your peers. But OK.

Here are three suggestions:

1) Try parking on the street and hiring a guy off craigslist to do the alt side shuffle for you. Not so much for the long term, but more for seeing whether or not you actually prefer it given the long time it takes to hunt down a space and the relative distance compared to a garage. Without alt side parking, this would get astronomically worse.

2) Who knows, you might like it: keep the craigslist parker on the payroll.

3) You make lots of money. You don't like an aspect of public policy. Use your time and/or that money to influence public policy. I.e., find politicians sympathetic to your middle class cause, contribute to their campaigns, get a PR campaign going, whatever.

this is long overdue to be put to rest--i will concede i got a chuckle out of the craigs list suggestion

item 3--i do all you have suggested extensively--doing too much time here at SE at the moment

good weekend

> Scratch that, it's *much* faster.

I drive it all the time, and I've never found the west side highway faster than anything. Its not just the traffic (which is horrible if you're going to midtown, everyone turning off for the tunnel).

Its also the freaking lights.

this thread is heavy, dude. it's a juicy one! i was born in the outerboroughs, and losing the ability to drive freely from my family's house in queens into the city would feel like being stripped of a civil liberty. i have no complaints about parking in the city. you can't do it everywhere, sometimes you have to pay, you need to park by a certain time, sometimes you have to move, sometimes you have to pay, but it is possible, you do have options, and if you are smart about it you can do it for free. it's not easy, but why should it be, it's manhattan. congestion pricing? meh. i am highly in favor of public transportation and anti-pollution. but i am also anti-traffic, so i am HIGHLY opposed to tolls on the bridges. basically, it's my worst nightmare. it would SUCK! just charge more on the jersey side! as nyc residents we already pay our fair share. reinventing rules and fees around driving in manhattan for the sake of reducing pollution is one thing. doing it as a money maker is another thing entirely and i am highly opposed to it. if we are so hard up, why the f*ck did did we start building what, four new goddamn SPORTS stadiums during the recession, why is the city spending all this money on bullsh*i unnecessary cosmetics and facelifts all over the damn place, isn't it beautiful enough, isn't it SANITIZED enough at this point? how many tanks of purell did giuliani already go though? meanwhile the social equity laws are a disaster. i have nothig againt rich people, or being rich, but i have major issues with f*cking over the disadvantaged as a general policy rule, this varies in force from administration to administration, some are worse than others...

"and losing the ability to drive freely from my family's house in queens into the city would feel like being stripped of a civil liberty. "

1) I feel that was already stripped of me. The traffic is destructive

2) Not sure how you think you wouldn't have that liberty. You have the right to smoke (in hidden corners) and the right to drink and the right to eat McDonalds. That doesn't mean those things are FREE.

To me, the folks being stripped of liberty most are the ones who have to subsidize the drivers...

"as nyc residents we already pay our fair share. "

No, you don't.
You pay the same as the folks who don't drive.
Either you aren't paying your fair share... or they're paying too much (which would mean you're not really paying your fair share).

> but i have major issues with f*cking over the disadvantaged

Funny, because that is EXACTLY what Sheldon Silver the idiot did when he wouldn't let congestion pricing come to a vote.

"were you to make just the minimum 300k you have indicated, and if you had kids (which you dont), you would know well what it is to be middle-class here in NYC (youd be the richest guy in most towns with your minimum 300K), and you would likely need to use a car to service your family in the most expedient way, to provide typical lifestyle and opportunity that is available to middle-class families throughout the us--not about income, about taking decent care of your family"

Actually, "middle class" IS about income, and only about income, not how "rich" or "poor" you FEEL. It has nothing to do with "lifestyle".

The fact of the matter is, "Middle Class" in America is having a household income between $35-75K. "Upper Middle Class" in America is having a household income of $75-92K. Households making above $92K comprise the top 20% of all households in America, and therefore are considered "Upper Class". There is nothing "middle" about being in the top 20%.

Further, households earning more than $167K are in the top FIVE percent of the nation. More than $250K is in the top 1.5% -- you are making more than 98.5% of the entire country. Asserting that a $300K income is Middle Class is not only ridiculously inaccurate, it's downright insulting to those who TRULY earn Middle Class incomes and face struggles that the $300K family couldn't possibly imagine.

Just because the $300K Manhattan "lifestyle" for your family is only comparable to the $75K "lifestyle" in Denver doesn't mean that "middle class" is a sliding scale based on how you "feel" or what you can "afford". The fact is, Manhattan is the most expensive place in the country in which to live, and EVERYONE has to either live a scaled-down lifestyle or earn significantly more than the national average. Or choose to live elsewhere in the country, where your HHI has more spending power.

hmmm interesting response...

"if we are so hard up, why the f*ck did did we start building what, four new goddamn SPORTS stadiums during the recession"

because we didn't, they were all funded and planned BEFORE the recession. The one that didn't get going before the sh*t hit the fan might not be happening.

Still not sure why that means we should be subsidizing the folks who cause congestion.

matt, again, you're wrong. but you're stubborn.

"Income varies considerably from near the national median to well in excess of $100,000." wiki
"irregardless" my income is not in any range for income-based definition of middle-class--thanks for illuminating that for me

"middle class" in nyc has been argued about exhaustively in many threads on this site--
my only assertion is that a middle class lifestyle, comparable to that of most people in the us, is quite expensive here in nyc---clearly anyone's money goes a lot further im mobile 'bama than here in nyc, and one who lives here should expect to pay more for a given lifestyle here than in mobile..again, i appreciate the tip

i find that our mayor, by whom i am often pleased, at times seems disconnected with the experience of those who are trying to engage a middle-class lifestyle here in nyc

i also find that alt side parking does shit for anyone but those who dont work normal hours and can take spots as soon as they become legal while the rest of us are at work. there is no concern that street parking spots be available to residents of our various neighborhoods.
i support traffic regulation, but not on the backs of taxpaying residents of all walks of life and from all boro's in our city
i support traffic and parking enforcement that is sensible as it improves quality of life, traffic flow and safety in the city--enforcement only for purposes of revenue accumulation, where there is no positive effect on safety, qol or traffic flow is garbage

good wknd all--

sorry, how are we "subsidizing the folks who cause congestion?"

AR, you are right... matt is wrong here.

Middle class is pretty typically called a *socioeconomic* class... the descriptions that follow are usually something like between the working class and the upper class, usually including professionals, highly skilled laborers, and lower and middle management."

Pretending its only numbers is wrong. Pretending it doesn't change as pay scales change is wrong.

The middle class here will definitely make more than middle class elsewhere...

"i find that our mayor, by whom i am often pleased, at times seems disconnected with the experience of those who are trying to engage a middle-class lifestyle here in nyc"

I think thats almost completely backward.

Think of the things he's done (whether you think he's a great mayor or not, I'm just talking about focus). He's definitely not focused on the poor, homeless went up, and acorn still whines.

And think of what he's done...

Focus on public schools - certainly not for the rich
Focus on public space - what the hell do the rich need with public places.
Smoking ban - I don't think its the richies who are crowding 7B
Congestion pricing - to help the subways and to stop the pollution, which matters for folks not going to the hamptons to get their clean air
Bicycle stuff
bla bla

I think "out of touch" is just the lame soundbite for those who can't actually make a coherent argument.

"Pretending its only numbers is wrong. Pretending it doesn't change as pay scales change is wrong."

Tell that to the U.S. Census Bureau and the Department of Labor.

"i also find that alt side parking does shit for anyone but those who dont work normal hours and can take spots as soon as they become legal while the rest of us are at work. there is no concern that street parking spots be available to residents of our various neighborhoods."

Part of the appeal of New York City is that no one "needs" a car.

If driving a car is that important to you, move to a more car-friendly city.

> Tell that to the U.S. Census Bureau and the Department of Labor.

I don't have to. They use the same dictionaries as everyone else does.

(all of which say your claim is incorrect)

matt is wrong? really? shocking.

matt, you are so tiresome.

"The Census Bureau does not have an official definition of the "middle class," but it does derive several measures related to the distribution of income and income inequality"

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/midclass/midclsan.html

i mean, do you guys really think they are doing this to reduce pollution as the main goal here? or perhap$ there i$ another more pre$$ing rea$on.. as an aside, just because people don't work 9 - 5 doesn't mean they don't "work." (i work 8 - 7 myself, just sayin..)

> i mean, do you guys really think they are doing this to reduce pollution as the main goal here?

No, traffic.

> an aside, just because people don't work 9 - 5 doesn't mean they don't "work

Not really relevant. The goal is to incent people not to drive at the times that cause slowdowns... which have significant financial impact on the city.

part of the appeal to you may be that you dont need or want a car. clearly there are many resident car owners that would differ with you.
i like having a car as i engage my approach to life. i like what i consider reasonable parking and traffic laws that seek to provide quality of life for taxpaying residents like me.

if you dont like having a car in ny wtf do you care about parking laws?
why dont you lobby to ban cars altogether or better yet, why dont you move to a city where there are no cars?
basically youre argumentitive irrational and full of shit

glamma i work 7-6--no dis to those who work diff hours than mine and no dis to those who dont work at all--i dis the parking laws that favor those who are not at work during the alt side switch times...laws that give no priority for parking to those who pay taxes and live in the neighborhoods of which i speak...it all about the $$ and has nothing to do with qol for city residents...

"part of the appeal to you may be that you dont need or want a car. clearly there are many resident car owners that would differ with you."

Nope. You're just wrong here.... I have a car. Don't know if I want it, but I need it.

"i like what i consider reasonable parking and traffic laws that seek to provide quality of life for taxpaying residents like me."

Not a bad idea. But I would not consider what we have "reasonable" in terms of quality of life.

Its an absolute mess to drive or park, or walk near people parking and driving in this town. In park slope, the studies said something like 25% of all traffic was people trying to park. And the areas by the bridges and tunnels turning into parking lots.

Thats NOT quality of life, and thats not reasonable.

> if you dont like having a car in ny wtf do you care about parking laws?

wtf will all your lousy assumptions?

> why dont you lobby to ban cars altogether or better yet

Because that makes no sense... other than to keep you from having to argue your point logically.

> why dont you move to a city where there are no cars?

I thought I did. ;-)

> ...laws that give no priority for parking to those who pay taxes and live in the neighborhoods of
> which i speak...

So, let me get this straight... I pay more in taxes than you, but you should get parking in your neighborhood and not me... because?

Its so funny... the folks who yell about "fair share" and all that, and don't actually want that.

Fair share would be paying for what you use.

Right now, you're being paid FOR.

"...it all about the $$ and has nothing to do with qol for city residents..."

Thats a load of crap.

It would vastly improve tons of neighborhoods.

Parking lots don't make for good neighborhoods.

> basically youre argumentitive irrational and full of shit

Funniest statement of the thread.

Your assumptions are completely wrong, you've got no logic (and have tried to cover it with made up statements), and you can't keep yoru facts straight...

And *I'm* the irrational one... got it.

Time to look yourself in the mirror.

You just don't have a clue.

I know you want your selfish needs to be met, but pretending its "good for the people" is a lie. You are like the lousy politicians who just want things for THEMSELVES.

Its not good for the city, its what you want for yourself, no matter how much others get screwed by it.

Well, at least your selfishness is the one rational thing you have going....

"basically youre argumentitive irrational and full of shit"

self referential statement of the day!

my post was obviously in response to nycmatt's
for some reason it launched you--little jetlagged??

your illogic is too painful to attend to

your should start packing for the next trip, no?
sounds like a wonderful way to live!!

> for some reason it launched you--little jetlagged??

Launched *me*? Look at yourself buddy..

"basically youre argumentitive irrational and full of shit"

> your illogic is too painful to attend to

Coming from a guy who doesn't understand logic, thats a compliment. Thanks!

m e l a t o n i n

So that's what the doc prescribed for you?

Ask him to double our dosage.