The Douglass

" You do get to write-off your mortgage tax, well until the current administration takes it away."

Which would likely push prices down further... possibly SIGNIFICANTLY in manhattan, where it would be a large cost differential.

> carol wrote: There are areas where prices have started to go up.
> what are you referring to?

where the sun don't shine...

CarolSt Can you provide some proof? The trend lines in a study done on CURBED is showing the market still trending down. Show me CAROL I am from St.Lewis.......

ms123 You will know when the market turns it will not take off like the SPACE SHUTTLE. This market will be moving sideways for quite some time. Just keep looking at the unemployment in NYC, if you have no job you can not purchase or get a loan for those that need to qualify for a loan. And this is a time when the city is facing a budget crisis TAXES are sure to go up. Look at the macro economics this will tell the tail of where the R/E market is going. No buyers no property movement. We are in the same boat as you are but will not take the bait yet in fear of getting stuck with an asset that we all are not sure how it will perform. For the long term it is a good look but for right now we have no certainty what the charts have to show us. Plus NYC is so fickle with its info. very hard to read and could never get the true picture of what is really happening.

ms123 KEY HERE numbers for the LAST QUARTER 2009 http://nymag.com/realestate/features/63383/

This is just for the LAST QUARTER and NOT ANNUALLY, YOU CAN NOT READ THE HEALTH OF THE R/E industry by quarters it has to be done annually this gives a better picture. If you are up for one quarter and down for three what do you get a negative annual report. These numbers are tricky.

ms123 hard numbers here check these http://www.roomrealestate.com/uploaded_files/Oa8m4ZVvnFrRQ.pdf

You article doesn't really go with what you have been saying. It all seems positive to buy, NYC is different than the rest of the country as a result will not suffer the same downward slide as the rest of the country. All of these numbers are also skewed, they do not include type of home numbers and luxury vs. non. The market is impossible to time, if you are going to be in the unit 3-5 years you will be fine.

You have also not taken Interest Rates into account. The fed will stop its purchasing program soon and when it does rates will rise (not even taking an uptick in the economy into account). So if you lock in now and prices fall slightly this can more of less offset.

ms123 This is very scary it is a huge purchase. I expect to be in the unit 10+ yrs. if I buy. I can not worry about what the fed does if you worry about the fed. and what they are doing we will never buy. I can afford it and know I will get in but when that is my issue. It will probably be in the summer...... You can not have 100% appreciation in 10yrs. and the rest of the country lagging very far behind. N.Y. was counting on the foreign buyer but that pool has dried up for now. We will recover so if we buy we will get our return on our coin. When When???? This is the question.

You can't time the market, if you are planning on a 10 year stay 2-4% declines shouldn't matter to you. You should be more concerned with moving Interest Rates. If you want a secured return go to a bank and get a CD.

mrs1007 wrote: But, does anyone know how often and by how much the maintenance can be raised?

mrs1007, this information will be somewhat specific to each building so you should read the bylaws and talk to your lawyer about it. As a general matter, condo boards typically make a budget each year and the maintenance for the year is a function of the percentage of the total budgeted costs allocated to that apartment. Boards can also typically adjust the maintenance from time to time depending on how costs are running compared to the budget, so that for example if heating costs rise, maintenance may need to rise to be sure the cost of heating the building is still paid.

In a new condo like this one, the developer will typically control the board for a couple of years and is usually focused on being sure that the maintenance stays as low as possible because it will pay it for all the unsold units. There are sometimes additional rights for the developer as long as it has any unsold apartments, so that even after it stops controlling the board, maintenance cannot be raised for certain items unless the developer consents. After the developer has sold all the units, it will usually just be up to the condo board except that sometimes significant costs above a certain amount cannot be incurred or added to a budget unless a supermajority (such as 2/3) of the condo owners consent.

How does this building compare to others in the neighborhood such as the Soha118 and the Livmor?

ms123 Really! Thank you for that financial advice. I really asked you to give that.

centsible, we looked at both the Soha 118 and the Livmor (as well as the Parc Standard and Graceline Court). Soha 118 is priced much higher than the Douglass and the apartments felt smaller due to lower ceiling heights. Also, the living/dining areas were smaller, while the bedrooms were on the larger side. However, our preference was to have a more expansive living space and smaller bedroom layout. The Livmor seems like a great building, but the biggest drawback for us were the views. Instead of looking out west/south over Morningside Park and St John the Divine, the Livmor looks out east over the tops of buildings. Also, the Livmor is priced competitively for their lower floors, but when you start looking at the higher floors (where at least you don't feel like you're living street-side), their pricing is much higher than the Douglass.

Has anyone on the post actually signed a contract with the Douglass? We are close but have cold feet.... we really have to make a decision soon bc it is putting all of our other decisions on hold! How much of a tax break is there - 1/3 of the interest paid? Does maintenance get any tax break?

Soha 118 is living in a pre-2008 world which is long gone. They think prices are as they were prior to the stock market collapse of 08. It will be a very long time before we return to those boom days. Until they get their pricing in order=no sales. The Livmor looks decent. The finishes are okay, nothing special. The lower floors facing FDB are very loud. The upper floors get good sun and views but still priced way too high for Harlem circa 2010.

mrs1007, You are right to have cold feet. I wouldn't even think about purchasing in the condo market until mid-2010, when I think we are going to see the start of a race to the bottom among Harlem developers. It simply makes no financial sense. The overheated quality of the discussions about these cookie cutter Harlem condos is incomprehensible to anyone who is willing to take a hard look at the economic fundamentals of the NYC economy.

The Douglass is priced well, but compared to what? The Livmor and Soha, no way those are overpriced.

We have been unable to come to an agreement on price with the douglass.

There is noway people are moving into that building in April, most of the sales so far are the affordable housing units. They need a lot more market priced to go before they hit the 51%.

That's not what we've heard... we heard they were already over 40% sold, and the developer is confident enough to allow us a contingency that if they aren't ready to open when we need them to we can get out of the contract... they should feel pretty good about sales to offer that, right?
We can't find anything as big and nice for anywhere near the price we are getting in Manhattan below 125th... but, of course, if we were sure we would've jumped a lot faster than we are...

Tks, I'm also scheduled to check out these buildings this weekend so I will get the chance to see what is apparently generating some overheated discussions.

mrs1007, it would depend on your specific circumstances and tax bracket and I'm no expert on the subject, but usually the full amount of interest paid on your mortgage is deductible and so if you were in a 33% tax bracket, that would be correct and you can look at 1/3 of the interest costs as going back into your pocket as a tax break. I don't know about maintenance, I wouldn't have thought it was deductible, but I do see some listings where they mention that at least a portion of the maintenance is deductible so maybe there is more to that.

Cherrywood, isn't it almost mid-2010? You could be right and maybe something drastic will really happen in the next few months, but that is probably a difficult prediction to make. I figure even if I want to wait until mid-2010, now is probably a good time to do some legwork anyway.

Ask them how many units are 'in contract', last week that number was not 40%. Also keep in mind 8 of those are affordable housing. Maybe they lied to us?

We were told in writing on January 26, and I quote: "Between the affordable housing units and market rate units we have 14 apartments in contract" and "We need to sell 5 more to reach 51%"

I am assuming at least 1 or 2 more have entered contract in the last month... if we sign they are just about there!

We also intend to do this now or not for a couple of years.... once the interest rates start climbing later this year, we might as well save up the 20% to avoid the PMI so that our monthly costs don't go through the roof.

Last week I was told 13 in contract, 6 more to go. So only 5 market rate apts in contract.

mrs1007, we have a signed contract at the Douglass. According to one of the building's reps (as of 2/10): "Currently we are about 4 apts away from being at 51% and are negotiating 2 new offers." I'm assuming one of those "new offers" is prob you! It seems like they're making decent progress with sales. That being said, we always assumed April was overly ambitious on their part for move-ins. We're guessing June or July. I totally understand the cold feet - we almost walked away from the building entirely when we looked at the Livmor and realized how many new apmts would be for sale right across the street (not to mention all the other new buildings in harlem). It made us very nervous from a resale perspective. But we have a growing family and couldn't believe how great the space was for Manhattan, so we took the risk.

mrs1007 This building did not have 41% as of last month and in contract does not constitute signed contracts. With that said I would not want to live in a condo that I was not sure it was going to be at least 70% sold. The market in Manhattan is usually lagging the rest of the country, and the wall street bonuses are not going to bail out the R/E market this time. Not sure what is going to happen but I am sure we will see another slowdown in the market soon. This will determine what the developers do. As far as rates you have a couple of months on your side. Read http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bernanke-sees-low-rates-amid-apf-1254187706.html?x=0. I am keeping an eye on FDB myself and all of the condos that are going to be available. It is hard to tell how many contracts are actually signed but I would not trust a broker to keep me informed of that unless you know an honest broker ;). Because the Douglas was financed by Wells Fargo and they are also making the loans to the buyers not sure I could trust that scenario either. This is probably why their is no room for negotiations. Good luck with your decision!

Holmes, I was under the impression that in contract did mean signed contract. We are not "in contract" because we have not yet signed, so our apartment is still listed as available. I also am wondering where you got the information that the building is not 41% sold - being able to access facts like this would be very helpful to us... We definitely don't blindly trust brokers, but it is hard to trust online statements without a factual reference, too :)
We obviously prefer to live in a building that is more sold than not, but feel that even if we sign the contract we can back out if they are not ready to open in 90 days, which means they should be at least 51% by then.
Also, to repeat what I said in an earlier post, they were very flexible in negotiating on price and closing costs, which is the only reason we are even debating about going through with it. The price for the space is pretty unbeatable!
Missclaire, we too have a growing family so the space is very attractive to us. The timeline is only important as far as us locking in an interest rate and losing it if they aren't ready to open, which is why we included the contingency. They orginally told us February then changed it to April, and we don't want to be strung along for the next 6 months...
We change our minds twice a day about what to do but need to make a decision soon because they are starting to get impatient with us, understandably!

Then things like this make us think, no way:

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/homepricedata/index.html

Then, on the other hand: http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/homepricedata/index.html
Here NYC is listed as 7% undervalued for 2010...

shoot ignore the last post, i meant this one...http://money.cnn.com/real_estate/storysupplement/overvalued_cities/

mrs1007 I was a buyer in this area and had help from friends in the R/E industry. Did a lot of research and did not like what I was hearing. Looked at the Douglas about a month ago and what I was told is it was not over 41%. Now it has been a month and things could have changed, but I doubt it could have change that fast in a couple of weeks. I am talking to people who have been in R/E in Manhattan for as long as some of us have been living. Elder statesmen who have owned in Manhattan for many years commercial and residential.

Does anyone know what is happening on the block (114th btwn ACP and FDB?) I believe it is all public housing at this time?

westie123 It may be public housing but there is also a school in this block. So what are you trying to say? Where ever you go in most of Manhattan you are never about 5 to 8 blocks away from the projects or some kind of low income housing. This is the reality of NYC.

I am asking because I actually like this building but have heard that this block is one of the worst in the area so was wondering if anyone knew anything about it or any planned changes.

westie123 The crime stats for this area are the same for the UWS. I like this building also but am not buying into the hype right now. Housing is still too unstable.

westie123, the randolph houses (on 114th b/w frederick douglass and acp) have been under construction for the past 5 years. the most recent plan was to tear down all of the aging brownstones on the south side and reconstruct them. but that's taken much longer than expected so who knows when it will be finished. here's a recent article about how people are really getting fed up with it: http://editors.columbiaspectator.com/2010/01/21/residents-call-action-brownstones

also, here's the press release the city issued 5 years ago, promising to reconstruct the apmts: http://www.nyc.gov:80/portal/site/nycgov/menuitem.c0935b9a57bb4ef3daf2f1c701c789a0/index.jsp?pageID=mayor_press_release&catID=1194&doc_name=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyc.gov%2Fhtml%2Fom%2Fhtml%2F2005a%2Fpr050-05.html&cc=unused1978&rc=1194&ndi=1

Lastly, I don't know if it's just been when we've visited the Douglass, but there has been a police officer on the corner of 114th and FDB only letting people go through who live on 114th or are going to the school. This may be an attempt to clean up the block, but I'm not sure how long it will last or what the intention is behind it.

Crime is not an issue there. No worse than Columbus and 100th Street...maybe better. It's the prices that are the problem. They need to come down before buying in these new developments in Harlem becomes a reality.

missclaire, thanks for posting these articles. Sounds like whatever is happening on the block is still up in the air. I have also seen the police barricade at this block so of course am curious as a potentially interested buyer as to what they are trying to do.

missclaire that is a great article, but what does low income housing mean? Is this going to be mixed housing or just a rehabbed public housing?

I hope we don't regret it down the line, but we have decided not to sign ur contract with the Douglass at this time, even though we were getting a really good deal on the price. We feel like it would probably be better to invest the down payment money at this point - at least we are assured some return over the next few years!
The building was really nice, but we didn't see it selling as fast as we'd like, and the many other new developments opening made us think that a resale even 5-10 years from now might be difficult. And, this thread has been quite helpful - thanks to all who posted!

What is a really good deal? We could not come to an agreement with them, 4% under ask is not good in my book. Anyhow we are a bit on the fence also, especially with postnig like the one from missclaire. The neighborhood still has a ways to come before it is truely desirable.

yes, we were closer to 10% below plus closing costs.... but we are really risk averse people, so that is also a factor in our decision.

ms123, i think that having ABANDONED buildings is bad for the neighborhood, but not necessarily public housing. public housing allows a neighborhood to maintain its economic and cultural diversity. if "truly desirable" means a wealthy, homogenous neighborhood then you should limit your search to certain sections of the upper east and west sides (and even there you will get some public housing). also, having public housing in your area does not mean it hurts property values. i live on the lower east side, where there is a ton of public housing and a building like the douglass would be valued at 2-3x what it is in harlem currently.

missclaire I agree with you, abandoned buildings are very bad, the city probably has something in mind. I don't disagree about public housing but there are differences in gov housing, and concentrations in areas.

mrs1007 if we would have gotten 10% we probably would have gone for it. They would not budge on price for a 2+2 this is why we just said we were not even going to go for it. I know I have what it would take to get into the building but we also have to lookout for ourselves. My family needs a cushion after we buy to be comfortable. I am not going to stretch because of someone that wants to use me to make money and leave me holding the bag. Most brokers hear the word FIRST TIME HOME BUYER and they see some green horn that they can take advantage of, not me. This is a business deal not shady business family business. Can not be stupid about handling your own business. Not willing to get suckered, these prices need to come down and they will.

Holmes, they will not budge for me either, oh well no rush

ms123 just know that in the last depression the economy got good just before it went south and the market in NYC did not really adjust that much. I am not saying that I am Nostradamus but if history is any indicator, and history does usually repeat itself we may and I say may have a correction coming. Just a thought!

No harm in waiting. Things ain't getting better anytime soon up in Harlem. The developers are looking for suckers out there and yes, they are out there. Don't be one of them.

I agree. Harlem prices are still coming down.

mimi, just curious, how much more do you think townhouse prices will come down? know you are following this market, as am I. obviously there are tons of crazy overpriced ones (2.5mm+) that won't happen.

Saw this building over the weekend, looks very nice. Seems to me that it would be tough for somebody to decide to pay the higher prices at Soha118 and 2280 FDB compared to this one.

For those that haven't seen it already, the below is a link to the Real Deal article that was posted today about the current condo market in Harlem.

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/bad-timing-hurts-harlem-condos

Seems like sales are slow on this, I havn't heard any follow-up.

^^^ this comment applies to everything in Harlem right now.

kspeak, it´s hard to tell. Short sales are happening, and the market is moving. I am not expecting a big drop like we have experienced or anything like that, but I think the there are 2 chances: one the market goes down very slowly for some years and the other is a 15% drop in a double dip by next year. I don´t see the market going up in Harlem any time soon. Great renovated, wide houses in prime Harlem will tend to keep it´s value better than all the rest, including condos. Any appreciation of value will happen in 5 or 1O years. But what do I know!

I wonder if they have reached the 51% so people can move in. Anyone have updates?

We received this email on March 13th from a building rep trying to entice us to come back:

Latest Mortgage Rates as of Friday March 13, 2010 through Wells Fargo:

Loan amount up to $417,000 (0 points):

The current 30 year fixed:

- Principal & interest: 4.875%

Loan amount between $417,001 - $729,750 (0 points):

The current 30 year fixed:

- Principal & interest: 5.125%

Loan amount between $729,751 - $3mm (0 points):

The current 30 year fixed:

- Principal & interest: 5.5%

The current 5/1 ARM:

- Principal & interest: 5.125%

The building was Declared Effective as of last Friday, and once the outstanding contracts are signed, we will be at 55%.

Very interesting, looks like 7C is relisted. So I am not that certain they are selling as many as they claim.

mimi, that's kind of my feeling too. i don't see the sky falling - at least not in the townhouse market. condo market there is an oversupply issue, and i know the markets aren't totally independent of eachother, but they are not the exact same either. i too think prices will stay flat to trickle down over the next 5 years, unless there is really a double dip recession, then all bets are off. but it continues to amaze me that even 2 years into the downturn, the neighborhood continues to improve. seeing a lot of work permits on brownstnes in mt. morris park again. one of the biggest problems i see is all of the crappy rennovations on the market - i'd rather buy a shell than pay for a rennovation that was done poorly and stripped out the original detail.

interstingly, i actually think the new set of buyers that has come in over the past couple of years are doing much higher end rennovations than the first set of buyers that came in 5-10 years ago.

mrs1007 did you go back and buy a place?

no, we didn't. And, I'm really glad we didn't because the Livmor on 115th is selling really fast while this place sits. We would have been so disappointed. We ended up renting a much larger place (1600 sf) in Manhattan Valley for about $1700 less per month, and are investing the difference. Still keeping an eye on things in the meantime.

Can anyone help me with advice here. What are advantages and disadvantages of using my own broker vs. working with the broker listed on the new development's site? Thanks.

I have limited experience with this, but the advantage of NOT using your own purchasing broker is that maybe the selling broker will give back some of the 3% that your broker would earn in the form of a lower purchase price. This particular building is extremely stingy with discounts on purchase price. The advantage of using your own purchasing broker is that if they're good and you have no experience with purchasing a home, they can provide some negotiating tips, comps in the neighborhood, etc. But if you've ever dealt with an incompetent purchasing broker, you'll know that with your lawyer on board, you'll be able to do it yourself and get something back from the seller broker.

Thank you dhmgt. Lawyer? Sorry about my ignorance. Where do I start with that?

LikeTheArea: No, not a laywer, but I play one on TV. No, kidding. Ask for a referral from someone who has hired a R.E. attorney in the past and actually likes them. They're a necessary evil, but they're not all bad. If you're selling a place AND buying one, they'll do a package deal, probably between $3K - $4K for both. Otherwise, probably between $1.5K - $2.5K for just the purchase, depending on whether you're buying from a developer (most expensive) or from a resale (less expensive).

When are the developers at this building going to get it. They have put price cuts in place but still have the same price that the place listed for. Do these geniuses think that we can not read? Does anyone see what I see. Buyers of this building be ware, pay close attention. I am watching this building and have been for some time. The entrance to this building is on a block with public housing which may or may not be a bad thing but almost all of the block on the south side of the street is boarded up. The city was supposed to fix that but with the current deficits I am sure it will be at least 10 years before that eye sore is fixed.

Holmes, I don't think they have price cuts other than what is negotiated with each buyer - those numbers aren't shown until the sales are final, no? As for the boarded up buildings on the south side of the street, according to the selling agent, the city is not going to fix them after all. Development is planned. I guess the Douglass can look forward to a decade of building along that street, one of the reasons to stay away from the B line in that building.

dhmgt these apts 2A,3A,and 7A the first 2 price cut 10K the last one cut 60K. Do not know why just those three but it is on SE.

Looks like they have sold a bunch so market must not be that bad. We were interested in one of the B lines but they wouldn't budge enough. Maybe some people will back out again, some of these units have been in and out of contract.

ms123 I had the same thing happen to me. Now they are having price cuts but just a little. Not sure what is going on with this bldg. Everything is still in contract nothing is closed. It could be a head fake or the banks just taking longer than usual to approve the loans. But it has been a while I am not buying in the stock market is still too unstable for me to release my cash and so is housing. I do not care what the numbers are showing we can not sustain the rate of sales that have been going on. We shall see!

Agreed b/c RE market sucks and you have boarded up GOV buildings all down the street. The city is broke those will be sitting for awhile. I would not want a low floor on the C units would be to noisy, and the low level B have no view and small living area. Who is going to pay these prices? Apparently a lot of people!

the latest update we heard is that they are well over 50% on sales, with 22 signed contracts. also, the plan has been declared effective. now they're just waiting to get the TCO (temporary certificate of occupancy). there is a final inspection this week with the DOB, which will hopefully go well. after that, they will start issuing the closings. getting very close to move-in day!

"he latest update we heard is that they are well over 50% on sales, with 22 signed contracts"

Lies. Search curbed - they just had a story saying its under 40% and that they lie.

jason, why would they lie? it doesn't make any sense now that we're so close and only weeks away from closing. we have a copy of the filed plan that shows all the sold units, so it's hard to be too skeptical of that...

I don't think they lie, I just think people over pay. Easy to get emotional about realestate, and without jobs coming back prices will continue to get pushed down.

I don't think they lie either. But maybe they speak too soon. I went to an open house over a month ago and the broker told me THEN that they were over 50% and were about to get the TCO. Perhaps some buyers got cold feet?

Missclaire - Good luck and enjoy your new place!

Go away brokers, you add no value with your comments or supposed service.

Well, they may in fact lie. But I think I confused it with a nearby bldg:

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/04/22/trio_of_models_unveiled_at_harlems_2280_fdb.php

This one in fact is only 40% sold.

has anyone read nyt article on this building?

Fluff piece.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/27/realestate/27harlem.html?scp=1&sq=douglass%20harlem%20condo&st=cse

When is this building going to be occupied? It is almost all sold but no lights on at night.

our closing is scheduled for 5 weeks from now. they're trying to schedule all the apmts to close by early july.

Have you moved in?

ugh...no, not yet. not happy at this point, but it could be any day now. fingers crossed.

ms123 What are they saying is the hold-up? Any day based on what?

missclaire What are they saying is the hold-up? Any day based on what? I asked the wrong person this question.

they still don't have the TCO. and they issued closing notices without it. i don't think it gets much more unethical than that.

according to the DOB'S web site (which I now check daily), they have now passed all inspections so it literally should come either today or tomorrow. but the city inspectors were getting hung up over a gas piping issue that took a while to resolve.

I had an idea that there was a problem with the building. Guess that that TCO should be coming soon, hopefully for the people that put the money up front already. Good luck!

missclaire, you commented some time ago about the street next to the building being blocked off. I walked past this morning and it was blocked off again but this time it had signs saying it was closed for the kids to play on the street. Street Safe Play or something they called it. If only they could block it off perm it would be great. I am in your area (I own a unit on FDB and rent it out and I also rent a larger unit to live in). I like this area. Any idea when the Parc Standard will be closing?

and the TCO has arrived, albeit way too late for a party. much more relief than celebration at this point:
http://a810-cofo.nyc.gov/cofo/M/104/739000/104739669T001.PDF

wanderer, all i know about the Parc Standard is that I visited it in January and it was a construction zone with some small 2 BR models. but they got their TCO on June 17th, far ahead of The Douglass. so they must be doing something right. oh and WHY ON EARTH is their address 2101 8th Avenue? are they denying they are on FDB? it seems very strange to me.

Harlem residents say "8th Avenue", not "Frederick Douglass Boulevard", "FDB", "Douglass Boulevard" or anything else. Just "8th".

wow, that is really interesting. so a lot of people do this? i do not live in the neighborhood yet so have no idea. but to me it's kind of like saying you live on 3rd ave instead of the Bowery...is this a sign of gentrification?

Harlem residents say "8th Avenue", not "Frederick Douglass Boulevard", "FDB", "Douglass Boulevard" or anything else. Just "8th".

Avenue

No, it's just that the renamings from numbered avenues never really took. Similarly, the City renamed Mt. Morris Park to "Marcus Garvey Park", but the people in the area never stopped calling it Mt. Morris.

However, never say "6th Avenue" ... it's "Lenox Avenue"!!!

alanhart, do you say 8th avenue on your mailing address as well?

My mailing address says 8th Ave. And seamless web!! Getting a taxi from downtown I will often use FDB. I have been in most of the new condos in this area. I really like The Douglas. Ya I didn't like the boiler things in the Parc Standard rooms tho. I think I heard the Gateway and Lore have more $$ so these should be moving along also. This is turning into a nice stretch of road. 5 and diamond do a set course brunch at weekends, def worth a try.

The 8th ave / FDB thing has been interesting. At first I was using FDB as our street name but it takes long to write out and half the time it was too long for many forms. So my license and credit cards all say 8th Ave. I usually tell Taxi drivers we live on FDB, and they usually know where it is. I think if I told them 8th ave they'd be confused since there are no numbered avenues above columbus circle.