Value of an in-apt washer/dryer

How much is it worth to you? I know people who'll pay $200/month not to have to wash their clothes in machines used by others. If you don't mind the hassle of doing it yourself in a laundramat or the lack of control with drop-off (not to mention the exposure to germs, bedbugs, etc.) don't bother, but many people do.

It's absolutely priceless. It just simplifies life. I'd say it's at a premium especially in Manhattan where there aren't many buildings that permit them.

I agree...priceless.

There are other ways to deal with the convenience issue, of course - if your building has washer/dryers and you pay someone to clean your apt on a regular basis, that person can do laundry as part of the cleaning; and, lots of laundry places will pick up/deliver, if you have a doorman. Also, I'm having a hard time seeing the risk of bedbugs from putting clothing in a washing machine that others use. One of the great things about a washer is that it's effectively self-cleaning....

do you have kids? if so, it's invaluable. my wife does laundry 3x per week, whenever she has some freetime. not having to go outside the apartment to do so makes it incredibly convenient.

not a huge believer in having others do your laundry, for a number of reasons. i think it's kind of gross to have some stranger touching your undergarments. and, i've spoken to enough people who get their laundry done, who said that on occasion, stuff comes back ias if it is unwashed. that's just me though.

i'd gladly pay $200 a month to do it myself. sounds irrational, i know.

It's priceless. Going back and forth to the laundry room is the worst. Doing your laundry one day and then getting a stain on something else and having to do more laundry the next day is very annoying. Many people don't do their own laundry in NYC (sent out, housekeeper, etc.), but for the many people who do, it's worth alot. I never understood why a $700/month apartment in Maryland has a washer/dryer and a $5000/month apartment in NYC doesn't. An in-unit washer/dryer is the number one thing that I want in an apartment-Number 1.

You will not find a single New Yorker with a washer/dryer who would ever go back to not having one.

I did just that in my last apartment move, and it made me very very sad.

Tradeoffs.

Depends on the washer/dryer, though. If you're talking those wimpy units that only hold one sheet and a couple of skivvies at a time, it's not really worth it, IMO. Or the crappy dryers that don't vent out and leave your clothes perma-damp--forget it. I'd rather hoof it to the basement.

@JohnDoe: good point on the cleaning person.

i've had it both ways. if you have to do your own laundry, one major advantage to a laundry room is that you can "divide and conquer". sometimes i use up to 4 or 5 washers at once in the laundry room, followed by 3 or more dryers. that type of volume would take hours if i were limited to a single "apartment-sized" washer and dryer. also, clothes that have more room to circulate in the dryer need less pressing.

Not issue. Cleaning lady does laundry in basement.

My last apt had 2 washers and dryers on every floor (10 apt/fl). That was my ideal--it was 5 feet from my apt door. I got double capacity, no maintenance headaches and didn't have to cede an inch of precious sq footage to the machinery inside my apt. I'd prefer that over my own machine.

Now with machines in basement, I get to use 5 at a time if I like, but its a real drag. I make a good living, but not so much that I can afford to spend $200 mo. just on laundry being sent out. So I wash my own sheets, towels and clothes and I hate it. But I think I'd also hate it if I had to do a load of laundry every other day because I generate about 4-5 loads every two weeks.

Having said that (thank you, Larry David), if I had kids I'd kill myself. Send it out for a fortune, do you own in one machine that would have to run every minute of every day to keep up with the cruddy stained disgusting mess kids make on everything, or pay for someone else to come and deal with laundry. Then again, I suppose I wouldn't be spawning unless I had enough money to keep myself sane so if I had a kid I'd have the $ for a housekeeper and laundry would be irrelevant.

Just the musings of a childless guy living in a NYC apt...

Hmm, I have kids and I don't do laundry every day. Not even close. Maybe 4 loads/week, max. and those are not full loads.

Kids' clothes are small and don't take up much room.

priceless!!!

Interesting article in today's NYT by Susan Dominus about building laundry rooms having additional uses.

Absolutely priceless, especially with kids.

4 loads a week with kids?

I feel like I do four loads/week by myself: the sheets are one load, and the towels are one load, and then I probably do two loads a week of just MY clothes ..

ali r.

I'm with you on that one front-porch - can be even more when I get really careful about separating out ?delicate? darks from other stuff, etc. etc.

Don't think I'd be as meticulous (obsessive) if I didn't have the washer/dryer in my apartment.

Shat's even sort of funnier, is that my full-size washer dryer has become one of the "must see" features we show to people who come to our apartment for the first time.

Explaining the "holy grail" nature of this freature to out of town guests, who always take that for granted where they live, is even funnier.

I had a small washing machine in my unit and then bigger ones downstairs. I did a daily load for the kids in my apartment and then spent approx $15-20 per week downstairs. Considering all of the expenses from the upstairs washes to the downstairs, $200 per month would definitely be worth it if you were to get a full size machine that can handle sheets and towels.

My kids' clothes for the week + towels = one small load (with room for extra).
All sheets (inc. duvet covers) = 1 load
Partner's clothes = 1.5 loads
My clothes = 1 very small load

Helps that my clothes are all dark, partner's are all light

LG, btw, and not the biggest model.

Super helpful! Thanks everyone

We recently had a bunch of my daughters' classmates and their parents over for pizza, and I overheard two of the moms kind of poking at each other "You ask her, no, you ask her." Finally, one sheepishly approached me and asked "Can we see your laundry room?" I swear there was an audible moan when I opened the door. 10023, I surmise that your kids are little (or much, much neater than mine!). Wait until you hit sports practices, dance classes, etc. with elementary school age kids. You will look back on your days of 4 loads a week and laugh weakly.

"Absolutely priceless, especially with kids."

Second that.

Or maybe I'm much, much dirtier.

it's absolutely frigging priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG, totally fantasic!!!
I use to send my laundry out, and still do for the big stuff... but it is amazing.
I work out a few times a week so nice to be able to throw my work out stuff in the washing machine. I did not think i would love it as much as i do, but it is amazing!!

I can't imagine having kids without a washer-dryer in the apt. Partly that's because my son, aged around 11, once "straightened up" his room by putting all his clean laundry back in the hamper. "That's it," I said, "I'm never doing your laundry again." I marched him to the machines, showed him how to work them, and never looked back.

There's only my husband and me and we still have at least 3 loads of laundry every week that I need to carry up and down from the basement. Like RE2009, my husband does to the gym almost every day which is great for his health but increases the laundry quite a bit. When I get my own washer/dryer, I think I'll really appreciate it for a long time.

loves me my own washer and dryer. have a kid, and do about 7 loads per week. i like being able to one at will for special circumstances. fyi to frightened bachelors - infants make messes, but their stuff is tiny and most nannies will do the kids load. my 4 year really isn't messy at all. just the added bedding and clothes makes an extra load. she's worth it though!

Similar story to 10023. Weighted more to kids and less to adults' clothes, but 4 load total is about average. Malber frontloader. Great machine - large capacity but very compact to fit in the closet where it sits. Would/could never go back after being spoiled for six years now. The savings are real - either big $ and a little convenience vs. sending out (which we never did) or big convenience and a few $ vs. shuttling down to the basement (which was our old deal). I literally cannot imagine doing the laundromat thing.

Without kids I would pay some premium, but not a huge one, to have laundry in the apartment vs. in the basement. With kids, I would just keep looking rather than settling for a rental or purchase without washer/dryer in apt. With washer/dryers a common, bordering on standard, feature in new condos and buyer's / renter's market out there, you should be able to get the washer/dryer without great additional cost.

but full size is definitely different than stacked (even top level like Bosch)

Don't get picky. Any washers/driers in Manhattan apartments are to die for.
I'd even do one of those European models that you attach by hose to the kitchen sink ....... if I had to.

Maybe if you had to deal with 1 or 2 people households. I foolishly bought a Miele washer & dryer (vented) and it took 5 hours to do one tiny load.

Ph - most, if not all, front-loaders, even the very-large capacity ones are "stackable" these days.

nyc10023, Your Miele was vented to the outside and took over 4 hours to dry a tiny load?

The wash cycle can be set to 45 minutes or less, so your dryer may be clogged with lint or you might have meant that you have a condensing or non-vented dryer.

Another possibility is that the vent distance is too long. Best if it's right up against an outside wall and vents outside in a foot or two.
A big deal in NY, but most Levittown capes and trailers in WV have this luxury.

We have a stacked Bosch W/D and I don't think I could live in an apartment without it. Usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 hours to dry a fairly large load, but if I throw it in the dryer and go out I don't have to worry about it.

Mommyesq - you have a laundry room??? How big is it?? Ours is just in the closet, I am green with envy.

I just moved into a rental with stacked frigidaires in a closet. Aside from the fact I keep hitting my head on the dryer door, the no-venting is a drag. You have to keep the door open or else the moisture and heat build up until you start a flood or a fire or both. Since this closet is right by the front door, it's very inconvenient and unesthetic. Next time I buy, I'll install venting!

We have the LG top of the line washer/dryer combo. A full load of cotton takes about 3.5 hours end to end. My wife or I put in a load at night and it's done in the morning. One of us (usually dear wife) folds and puts the laundry away the next day. We do about 3 loads a week for ourselves, and the housekeeper who visits every other week does towels & sheets downstairs in the basement. Nanny also does 2 loads of kids stuff each week. Works well. We REALLY dig having the unit in our apartment. We sacrificed a second bathroom for it and feel it was worth the trade-off.

Scoots, yes but I live in Harlem in a townhouse. I LOVE my neighborhood and love my house, which has a lot of original detail, but many folks just aren't willing to live that far uptown. Even for a laundry room. Which is large enough to house a full size washer and dryer and a folding table.

Se1: Wash + dry = 4 hours. The normal wash cycle was > 45 mins. Dry approx. 2 hours for a full load. It was 100% vented. I don't own the Miele anymore, that was in my old apt. I was so fed up I got an LG washer and dryer pair, making the apt possibly the only one with 2 pairs of W/D.

LoftyDreams, what you have is the lame NYC solution to traditional dryers. I've had it, it's useless, has the problems that you describe, and undoubtedly spews chemical microparticles all over your apartment. I wound up jerry-rigging a vent from my w/d closet into the bathroom, and that out a board installed semi-permanently in the top of the bathroom window. Either not pretty, or coolly industrial-looking, depending on what side of the bed you (I) woke up on on any particular morning.

There's another whole class of dryers, probably including the one that OTNYC described, that uses a tiny stream of cold water to condense the dryer steam and send it, along with the lint and chemical residue, down the drain.

Believe it.

nyc10023: sounds nice, but apparently you are not alone -

In a downstairs utility closet, Mr. Jacobson installed two washers and two dryers. “I did the same thing in my SoHo loft, and everyone wanted that feature,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/realestate/16habi.html?scp=2&sq=perry%20street%20washer%20dryers&st=cse

All of this reminds me once again of what one poster on this board (correctly) referred to as "laundry porn":
http://featured.matternetwork.com/2009/6/waterless-washer-uses-plastic-absorb.cfm
http://www.xerosltd.com/index.htm

"All of this reminds me once again of what one poster on this board (correctly) referred to as "laundry porn":
http://featured.matternetwork.com/2009/6/waterless-washer-uses-plastic-absorb.cfm
http://www.xerosltd.com/index.htm"

Not buying it.

This "green" movement and "carbon footprint" BS has gone too far.

You can't clean without soap and water. Period.

This is just like the allegedly "eco-friendly" "waterless urinals" my company installed in the men's room last year. It's your basic wall-mounted urinal, only not connected to any water supply -- just a drain. The pee flows down through a filter, which claims to "trap" the "solid waste material" (seems to me if there are that many men with "solid waste material" coming out that end, they've got a bigger problem than using too much water in the john), while the "waste fluids" continue on down the drain. Once a week, the janitor replaces the filter. Each urinal claims to "save" about 60,000 gallons of water a year.

Only problem is -- THEY STINK! Think of how hygienic it is to have literally hundreds of men each day spraying their liquid waste against the porcelain wall of the urinal, with never any water to rinse the residue away after each use. The men's rooms started to stink so badly that the odor eventually permeated the entire floor.

The "waterless urinals" lasted less than a month. Thank GOD.

I understand the desire to save water, but at what point are we wiling to sacrifice cleanliness? Hell, we could save half a million gallons of water at work if they just stopped mopping the floors!

If you worked at a fine establishment, there'd be used ice from someone's G&T slowly rinsing the liquids down the drain.

What's up with the solids? That was described as part of the design for a urinal? I'm confused. Is that supposed to be for cigarette butts & gum?

Interesting story in NYT about how he assembled the 2 units - kinda unbelievable that he picked up 6N for 1m+ when it was bought for double that amount by trustafarian just 2 years before.

This is all very helpful. And any additional comments that anyone has about specific washer/dryer models, please let me know. Also considering buying a place that has pipes in a closet for a washer/dryer hookup, but the dryer business has me confused. I have heard of the new LG with the condensing feature so no venting dryer needed, but would all the other dryers need a tray of water emptied or something?

When I go to Home Depot and ask 3 different salespersons, I get 3 different answers :)

Thanks again

Tribeca,

Not necessarily. The newest non-vented dryers use cold water to condense the steam, and flush the water down the drain.

They aren't nearly as efficient, however, as the old-fashioned kind that require outside venting.

And forget Home Depot. It's staffed by people who are trained by the corporation, headquartered in Georgia, which has no concept of how people in Manhattan live. I had a conversation with one of the managers at the 23rd Street store who confided in me that she's constantly fighting with Corporate over buying decisions, not just about stocking washer and dryer units that couldn't possibly fit into most New York City apartments, but most merchandising decisions in general. The Corporation just doesn't "get" that Manhattanites, while more affluent than most of their other markets across the nation, don't have the space or need for much of their product line (case in point: that whole lower level for "lawn and garden" ... DUH).

At the time I spoke with this manager (last year), she said sales were lagging FAR behind other stores nationwide, and there was worry that the plug would be pulled on the 23rd Street store.

> You will not find a single New Yorker with a washer/dryer who would ever go back to not having one.

Agreed.

Its priceless. And you can talk about "its on my floor" or "its nearby" or "small capacity" all you want, but I still say priceless. I didn't have one, then got one, and I don't think I can ever go back. I think 99% of folks who say otherwise, its just sour grapes.

I used to send my laundry out because it wasn't worth the time/aggravation. That can cost $50 a month for a single, much more for a family. And, dealing with it takes some effort (and a lot more w/o a doorman). I'd easily pay $100 for what I have now. Family, make that $300 or $4000.

Also figure...
Never worrying if someone else is using it.
Not worrying about others touching your stuff.
Not worrying about when its done (and if you just leave your stuff in public machines for hours, you're just an ass)
Having it "work" with your closet/storage/hamper situation. Like I just use it as my hamper, throw things in direct. Or my system for pulling it out and going right on the hangers. Or if you have your cleaning people do it (cheaper if its in apartment) and having them put it in the right places

Seriously, I'm screwed. I can't live without it now.

btw, the units they have for me are some swedish smaller models. I don't know much about machines, but its only a little bit more than the 26-30 minutes I remember in the big machines. If it was 45 min, I'd be surprised.

But, cool thing is, it doesn't matter. You don't have to walk downstairs, or down the hall, or whatever, and check. You just notice when its stopped, and then you do your thing.

ABSOLUTELY priceless. I would not even look at apt without it. It is more important than extra space.

"I used to send my laundry out because it wasn't worth the time/aggravation. That can cost $50 a month for a single, much more for a family. And, dealing with it takes some effort (and a lot more w/o a doorman)."

Agreed.

I did the pickup/delivery service for a couple weeks, and while the price worked out to only about an extra $5 over what I was pumping in to the building's machines each week, believe it or not, scheduling (and waiting for) the pickup, and waiting around for the delivery ended up being more of a hassle than just taking the three hours (all told with sorting, washing, drying, folding, and putting away) and doing it myself.

Also, let's be realistic -- unless you speak Spanish or Chinese, there's a major language barrier with the people who run these businesses. They can barely speak English, and God help you if you have any special laundry instructions (like not putting your dress shirts in the dryer or they'll shrink, no detergents with harsh chemicals, please use vinegar in place of chemical fabric softener, etc.).

Sometimes, it's better to just do things like laundry yourself. And it's worlds easier when you can do it like the rest of America -- in your OWN laundry room!

you people are ridiculous. of course it's not "absolutely priceless." would you pay $5000 a month for a studio just because it had a w/d? or pay $5000 a month to avoid having your current w/d removed? of course not. the average consensus seems to be $200/month, which says a lot - but that's still a price, last i checked.

"would you pay $5000 a month for a studio just because it had a w/d? or pay $5000 a month to avoid having your current w/d removed?"

Yes.

I went from having 2 washers & dryers in apt to a rental with machines in basement (and yes, I would hog them). In-apt laundry is certainly NOT priceless - it was worth it to give it up to sell my apt at the top of the market.

Wow.

Pity the irresponsible fool who bought your apartment "at the top of the market".

Do you telephone him regularly to chastise him for his stupidity and irresponsibility?

NYCMatt: I definitely got the better part of this deal. I get the DIRTIEST looks from the buyers of my old apt (I still live in the same neighborhood). I kinda feel like I don't need to call, the buyers are pretty financially savvy people and they know they got the short end of the stick here. They're not hurting for cash, are not underwater, and are lucratively employed.

But if they lose their jobs, THEN they're stupid and irresponsible, right?

Eep, I hope they don't read SE. They would definitely write me nasty emails. If it makes you feel better, I can tell you of quite a few investments that have gone against me in the last couple of years.

Matt: "They aren't nearly as efficient, however, as the old-fashioned kind that require outside venting" ...
if by "efficient" you mean that they take longer to dry clothes, perhaps.

But traditional dryers heat room-temperature air and almost immediately expel it, while a condensing dryer returns warm air to the drum, so that only a bit more heat is needed to get it to give up its moisture.

So no.

PS -- stop picking on the pregnant lady in glasses who's hogging all the dryers and sold at the right time. It's just not done.

> Pity the irresponsible fool who bought your apartment "at the top of the market".
> Do you telephone him regularly to chastise him for his stupidity and irresponsibility?

No, but when he calls me 3x a day for 2 years, saying the market has bottomed, and its now the time to buy, and RE is the best investment, and that he wasn't actually wrong about the market going up in 2008, and that stocks are for idiots... I generally respond.

"In-apt laundry is certainly NOT priceless - it was worth it to give it up to sell my apt at the top of the market."

Thats not a logical statement... mainly because your next apartment could have it too.

Eddie, even you will admit that rentals in Manhattan with in-unit w/d are few and far between. Add in a few higher-priority factors (neighborhood, prewar, light, etc.) and "could" is a pretty slim likelihood.

For the type & size & location rental I was looking for, nope, there was nothing on the market at that time with in-apt W/D. I could have put my own in at my expense (in fact, W/D was later added to that apt), but I didn't bother at the time.

Condenser dryers are more energy-efficient so I'm not particularly green when it comes to drying of clothes. Probably because I put doing laundry off until the last possible minute, even with my own equipment.

BTW any thoughts on Miele w1215? I have a speed queen tl and it does the job but always wondered about mieles.

I've been told the Bosche is the best - the condensed water goes down a pipe. Still heats up the closet tho - my friend put a louvered door on it. So still wouldn't be great in my entranceway.

I just gotta have my own W/D because I am so very sensitive to the chemicals that are used in most laundry products, especially the hellbrew that makes "fragrance". Alas, I can't use a washer or dryer that someone with April Fresh this or Spring Morning that has used- the scent just doesn't go away.
Not happy or militant about it. Just is and it restricts my apartment hunt.
So I'd vote 'priceless within my meager budget".

There are many RE ads for apts where the broker blurb clearly states no in unit washers and dryers, but I often look at the other apts in the building that have been sold and on their floorplans and sometimes on their descriptions a W/D or Washer/Dryer is stated. Are all of these illegal? Or are they grandfathered? Is it really legal and accepted for a coop board to restrict some and not others? Can those rules be challenged if others exist? Or are more and more buildings now allowing installation because of the newer, smaller more efficient units?

Has anyone successfully challenged a board if there is a precedent with another unit that has a W/D?

I'm on the board of a building, so I can offer some insights into the issue as to whether or not a building can restrict washer/dryers in apartment units. The short answer - a board can generally do whatever it wishes within the limits of the law, since it's considered a form of voluntary self-governance. That said, boards usually seek to have a precedent that justifies their rules - for example, if they refuse to allow washer/dryers, they want either a history of turning down such requests in the past, or having an engineer's report that says that the pipes are too narrow for individual washer/dryers.

Ok, now a practical approach to suggest - if you want to install a washer/dryer in your unit, I would talk first with the managing agent/super to see what the current policy is and if there is a history of problems with washer/dryers. Even if there is a prohibiting rule in place, you can always ask for an exception. It also helps a lot if you do a little homework first - for example, go to a good appliances store where the salespeople know the products and talk about washer/dryers that address the objections that buildings usually have, such as too much water usage, sudsing, backups, etc. A lot of the newer units are low-water-use models, and modern detergents are frequently low-sudsing. If you ask for an exception courteously and provide info/use a machine that doesn't cause problems, you may get your wish. Sometimes these sorts of rules are outdated.

Hope that helps

"A lot of the newer units are low-water-use models, and modern detergents are frequently low-sudsing."

I'm also on the board of my building, and I tried to use this excuse.

It turns out that just because a clothes washer uses "less" water, it doesn't change the load it throws out into the pipes. Standard top-loading washers use as much as 30 gallons of water per load. Some of the most efficient newer models use as little as 11 gallons. The problem, however, isn't the VOLUME of water, it's the RATE at which the water is pushed out of the washer and into the plumbing during the rinse and spin cycles. Regardless of washer style or model (or water efficiency), for the spin cycle to do its job properly the washer needs to throw out the water at a rate of about 24 gallons per minute. Like a car that's travelling only 3 miles from the house to the store that can go up to 60 miles an hour without actually travelling an entire 60 miles, a washer with only 11 gallons of water in its drum can push that water out at a RATE of 24 gallons per minute ... for about half a minute. The problem is, though, that most prewar buildings can handle only SEVEN gallons per minute -- the rate at which water uses the force of gravity to naturally drain itself, as in a bathtub. Any more than that, and you've got drain water backing up in other people's sinks and bathtubs because it has nowhere else to go so quickly.

The only way that you could possibly convince a board (and its engineer) that you can avoid the problem of drainage issues is to have the washer drain into a laundry tub (or oversized kitchen sink). This way, the water drainage would be no different than if you'd been taking a bath. Even still, the board might still reject it on the grounds that you'd still be increasing the water usage through the drain pipes -- laundry water that otherwise wouldn't be going through those pipes, but rather through the pipes in your building's laundry room (or at the local laundromat).

Approx how much extra is the electric bill a month if you have your own W/D in the apartment and do 3 loads/week?