Wjy we want to live in Manhattan

Mimi - of course even if someone doesn't live in Manattan, they can , and I would hope would, post as to why they want to (which was the original question here).

Just that CC didn't post about that, just used the thread to attack me

Rhino - just read your original posts.

I don't know about that, CC.

I come from the Upper West Side, but nonetheless

I HAPPEN TO LIKE NEW YORK (Cole Porter) ("The New Yorkers")

I happen to like New York, I happen to like this town.
I like the city air, I like to drink of it,
The more I know New York the more I think of it.
I like the sight and the sound and even the stink of it.
I happen to like New York.
I like to go to Battery Park and watch those liners booming in.
I often ask myself, why should it be that they come so far across the sea.
I suppose it's because they all agree with me. They happen to like New York.
Last Sunday afternoon I took a trip to Hackensack,
But after I gave Hackensack the once over, I took the next train back.
I happen to like New York. I happen to love this burg.
And when I have to give the world a last farewell,
And the undertaker starts to ring my funeral bell,
I don't want to go to heaven, don't want to go to hell.
I happen to like New York. I happen to like New York.

rhino---just re-read your posts. would agree that nowhere do you say you can't afford it; you are questioning whether its worth it or not. very different. in my mind, anyone who doesn't consider that question from time to time is living in a fantasy land or off of inherited wealth. no one here discusses what it takes day in and day out to earn the kind of money to have the nyc life style. relatively few hours or energy left to enjoy all the wonderful culture.

Ph you missed the gist. Kindly stuff it and thank the lord
you married well.

CC - What IS your problem?

And, yeah, actually saw three plays this week - just last night " List", at Playwrights Horizons - really good.

you and everything you represent.

And you know absolutely nothing about me or what I represent, except in your own bitter little mind.

i know that you are a braggart, unable to grasp irony and have a stated value system that i find abhorent. other than that, i know nothing about you.

why do you feel the need to yet again tell us about the three plays you saw this week; who are you trying to impress?

People often say, as some did above, that you have to be rich to live in Manhattan. It certainly helps. But one of the main things I like in NYC are the people who aren't rich - writers (even a published novelist friend makes zero money really), aspiring theatre types, artists, musicians, film people etc...Some are in brooklyn, many have rent stabilized, kids are crammed in walkup dumps, etc. but somehow they make it. And lots of people with more stable jobs in say advertising don't make wall street type money but still live here.

In contrast, in other major cities everyone is run of the mill professional of some sort...no pizazz.

And new york has lots of alternative lifestyle humans....to each his own.

And NYC has tons of cheap ethnic food and decent take out places...that is affordable.

"But one of the main things I like in NYC are the people who aren't rich - writers (even a published novelist friend makes zero money really), aspiring theatre types, artists, musicians, film people etc...Some are in brooklyn, many have rent stabilized, kids are crammed in walkup dumps, etc. but somehow they make it. And lots of people with more stable jobs in say advertising don't make wall street type money but still live here."

How long has your published author friend lived here? If he's making "zero money really", he's:

a) in a rent-controlled deal he had to move here 25 years to have landed;
b) in a co-op he bought back in the '80s
c) living with someone who pays his bills.

And as for your "aspiring theatre types, artists, musicians, film people etc." ... some ARE in Brooklyn ... some DO live in cramped walk-ups with roommates ... but gone are the days of the struggling 20-something aspiring actor/artist/whatever. Their (rich) parents are paying their rent for them.

"And NYC has tons of cheap ethnic food and decent take out places...that is affordable."

Sure it is. If you can afford to BE here in the first place.

Matt, you're the perfect example of why people like New York. I rarely met anymore like you when I was living in the suburbs. You listen to what people are saying and respond to it. Often people in the suburbs try very hard to get along despite differences in opinion and try not to disagree.

Don't go trying to get on my good side! ;)

Matt. I think you are overstating your case. Are you saying NYC doesn't have lots of arty types running around?

I randomly run into more people doing more interesting lines of work, more creatively than any other city than I am familiar with in the US (but I dont really know LA or SF). And there are also lots of finance types doing international work in far flung places. I lived in London several times and NYC is much more diversified in terms of people you meet (at least that was my experience).

I've sort of considered living in DC (because lots of friends there, i lived there several times in the past, i grew up in va, and housing so much more affordable than nyc)...but it is so boring compared to NYC. Everyone is a lawyer or govt worker or lobbyist, etc....howevver, it does have a lot of policy wonks, which I do like (and that is the one thing I rarely see in nyc, i like think tank types).

"Are you saying NYC doesn't have lots of arty types running around?"

No. I'm saying that these arty types either have a rich benefactor, or an hour-long commute to get into the city before they can run around.

NEW SPEEDWAY BOOGIE (Robert Hunter / Jerome John Garcia)

Please don't dominate the rap Jack
if you got nothing new to say
If you please don't back up the track
This train got to run today

Spent a little time on the mountain
Spent a little time on the hill
Heard some say better run away
Others say you better stand still

Now I don't know but I been told
it's hard to run with the weight of gold
Other hand I heard it said
it's just as hard with the weight of lead

"As long as your expectations for those "best experiences" aren't too out of the mainstream for our new "Disneyfied", "family-friendly" sensibility and happen before the carpets are rolled up before midnight."

well...the experience that followed my post earlier today was a class at a world class yoga studio... where a year ago I would need to make an on-line reservation well in advance. But today, I was the only student, and so my cost of $20 for the class turned into a $100 private lesson. lucky me. And on my walk home, passing papyrus, kates paperie, molton brown, lululemon...etc, I counted a half dozen HUGE empty retail spaces. And when I google map them, they were formerly high-end retail places.
what if "edgy" is what is happening to consumerism? our economy? maybe instead of dead bodies on the sidewalk on the lower east side, we are looking at dead buildings. empty caracass'of concrete...people under water...disneyfied? who can afford Disney?...oh wait, there are probably tons of families who can't afford to go but will be there for Spring break.
I think it's edgy that I see high-end cars parked on the street instead of the garage. Or people who actually drive their own Rolls Royce's...what?! no driver? It's edgy that our dollar is referred to as the new peso. It's edgy that Dubai is goodbye, or don't buy. Am I going to look back and say..."when I first moved into NYC rents were so cheap, and because we saved instead of spent, no, because we didn't spend what we didn;t have...I had a second home on the upper east side and they used to call that moving on up and now it's called moving on down" I went to Tory Burch in Nolita...an American designer, from Pennsylvania and all her clothes are made in China. HUH?
maybe what is happening in NYC is exactly what has to happen. maybe the distaste for Disney is good.
someday "post-war" will be really old too, or maybe it will mean another war altogether.

so the yoga teacher told a story about meeting Greg Mortenson, a nobel peace prize nominee....the one that went to Obama, except Mortenson really did something.
Why does it feel that something is really wrong, and yet it has given me opportunity I would never have had otherwise?
that's edgy.

"Understanding that living in Manhattan is really expensive, why, leaving out commuting from elsewhere, do we really want to live in Manhattan?

Housing, schools, etc. are so much more reasonable elsewhere, but, still, we want to live here.

WHY? - please post"

PH41: Well my husband makes a very nice living, and there is no better place for me to consume conveniently and then to brag about it. Those who'd weigh other options either can't afford it, or won't admit they can't afford it. That's not an issue for me. I want what I want, when I want. We even have our own elevator, so I don't wait for that either.

imagine another town that could tolerate the likes of PH41.
What? there are no other towns or cities that are THAT tolerant?
Go figure...
That's the best reason.
I want to live in a place that tolerates the intolerable. A group of people so patient that in any other town we would see pitchforks and torches heading for the home of PH41. I personally think even the Dalai Lama would be inclined to take a swing at her but, not us...we tolerate.
Peace and Joy this holiday season!!!
By the way...warn you kids not to go near the ginger bread penthouse!

"Those who'd weigh other options either can't afford it, or won't admit they can't afford it. That's not an issue for me. I want what I want, when I want. We even have our own elevator, so I don't wait for that either."

Really? What about all the people who buy multi million dollar mansions in the suburbs? You mean they can't afford Manhattan? Yet another dumb comment from Rhino.

Sweeeeeeeeeet! You are right, nowhere else would they tolerate ph41, if your cc didn't pay for the doorman, they'd kick you to the curb.

FLMAO. Another reason to love NYC, you can buy "love" or at least groceries to your door.... FLMAO

matt, I should go to the gym, I really should. At least I'm showing apartments tomorrow so I'll get some walking in.

alan, bless you for posting those song lyrics.

I'd counter with Frishberg, written from LA: "Do you miss the pace/the rat race, a racket .. do you miss New York?/Me too."

ali r.

Yeah, I can't even stand ph41.

yeah, ph41 when's the last time you went down on your hubby?

hi hfscomm1

hi alamefart

hi hfscomm1

alamefart, so the van is picking you up first at 7:45am and then will swing around to get me. Don't be late this time and don't forget your gloves, I'm not bringing an extra pair this time.

hi hfscomm1

alamefart, if you keep this up then Mr. Bob won't let you have snack time tomorrow.

hi hfscomm1

ok fine, hi alamefart, you are doing good today, hi

ah: seems like you have the infestation under control.

hey columbiacounty, when you get back to the city, lets team up again on ph41. We made a great pair last weekend.

hi hfscomm1

falco, west palm beach.

i second everything 10023 said (minus hubby being home for dinner :(.

I love the walkability/accessibility of the city, particularly our neighborhood. I HATE feeling isolated. Manhattan is kind of my prozac. I like that there are people (of all kinds) everywhere. I love stepping out my front door and having oodles of choices for the little ones, gorgeous parks to visit, and a feeling of life in the air. I don't love the shopping (groceries, etc) and find it challenging w/ kids and w/o a car.
I wasn't really into moving here 5 years ago but did so b/c of hubby's job. I was adamant that we would only stay a couple of years and vowed to never have children while living in this city. Well, 2 children later i can't imagine raising my girls anywhere else (though, ask me if i feel the same way a year from now). Not sure who said what about kids and $ money, but I do think you need to make some fatty cash in order to raise a family here. For us, it requires a lot of sacrifice (hubby works very long hours and spends very little time with us relative to other non-manhattan families we know). It causes tremendous stress and yet, we just don't want to leave. I think the city gets in your blood (like prozac :). Suburban life is too stale for me (for me, not generally) and we've both completed 18 years of redneck/white-trash, Univ. Ain't goin' back.

Its not that Manhattan is great... its that everywhere else just sucks so much.

And I hate the compromise places most of all... the suburbs for people who don't want to admit they live in the suburbs (park slope, dumbo, etc.). Just admit it already and find a cheaper suburb. The "I want the life/style/pace of New York" is a lie, you don't have that in Park Slope.

Didn't "Manhattan: Its Sucks Less" come in second to "I LOVE NY" back in the day?

I like that - Manhattan sucking less. Stop insulting Bk, it's not a compromise, IMO - it's something quite different from burbs & Manhattan.

uwsmom: yeah, that sucks about dinner - on the other hand, your quality of life would be even worse if your husband lost 2 more hours every day to commuting. Might have to do Fresh Direct or power shop at Fway and have it delivered until #1 starts preschool.

Another solution I like (since I hate waiting around for deliveries). Pick an off-peak hour to go shop at uptown Fway. Takes me 10 mins in a zipcar to get to 125th and I'm usually done shopping for the week in an hour. They stock larger cartons/packages, so it might be worth your while. It's my solution when I know it's going to be a rainy week or I'm too busy to go shopping during the week.

I've always preferred "Fun City". It works when it works, it works when irony is needed, it works when you're terrified, it works when U <3
N Y

stupid formatter won't even let you use spaces to indent

> Didn't "Manhattan: Its Sucks Less" come in second to "I LOVE NY" back in the day?

It wasn't quite true then.

The suburbs were new. They were clean. They weren't completely stuck up with traffic. There were neighborhoods. Kids played outside.

But the drugs invaded, the traffic got effectively worse than cities (because you HAD to drive), they started crumbling. They just don't work anymore.

> Stop insulting Bk, it's not a compromise, IMO - it's something quite different from burbs &
> Manhattan.

Yes, its burbs for people who just don't want to admit they moved to the burbs.

Of course, we can't brush all of Brooklyn with one stroke, as you're aiming to do. I'm talking about the park slopes and dumbos and such and all the places the yuppies move (yes, that means us).

kids played outside in the city in those days as well, and had a great time doing it.

yeah, shopping 1x/wk is like running a marathon for me. I'll need to plan and train for this. *sigh*

Its truly my least favorite thing about Manhattan that people declare 'all suburbs suck' as if its a factual statement. You sound like such a twit.

What suburb doesn't suck? Levittown? Old Greenwich? Battery Park City?

Or do you mean
Town X ("the Upper West Side of New Jersey") and
Town Y ("the Upper West Side of Westchester")?

I'm not saying whether or not they suck. I'm saying when NYC people declare they all suck in such a matter of fact way, they sound like assholes. I think people who draw strength from declaring Manhattan superior are essentially losers.

Just because a fact is stated by a twit, an asshole or a loser doesn't make it any less factual.

I'm not sure what people get out of stating their opinions as facts. Enjoy!

lol

i think it's more of a "suburban life(style) sucks to those who have grown to truly enjoy a manhattan lifestyle" type of thing.

And as Lizyank points out so eloquently, "Manhattan" life today is quite suburban... So what am I enjoying exactly? A kind of Disney-fied Manhattan. Hmm.

I like that line of questioning - what sucks less? Indeed.

Or maybe its mental masturbation. Maybe it allows people to feel member of an exclusive club, intellectually superior or the like. For every one of those, there's someone else who likes the burbs more than the city, and/or more than they expected. As a betting man, its just really easy for me to take the other side.

For the fuck of it...taxes, homeless, filth and paying a real estate premium for everything from a slice of pizza to a carton of orange juice. Manhattan sucks. Where else can you lose so much of your net worth buying a one bedroom apartment with poor timing? Where else are there so many obnoxious pieces of shit per square inch stating their opinions as facts? Try reading a book or enjoying some quiet rather than chasing down your next $11 glass of wine and pretending you liked some play because the other people you like to think are smart liked it.

> kids played outside in the city in those days as well, and had a great time doing it.

Yes, I know, I was one of them.

My point is the burbs had this in spades, but that all seems to have gone away.

> I think people who draw strength from declaring Manhattan superior are essentially losers.

Its bigger than that... anybody who draws strength from any comments on this board would be a loser. Why pick just one example?

Whats also gone away is affording a family life in Manhattan as a young parent unless your a banker or a hedgie and want to pay $2mm for a 1200sqft condo.

"Yes, I know, I was one of them." ... I thought you grew up in the country, like Gravesend or Flatlands or someplace like that.

I wouldn't go that far to say it's all in my head. It really is more enjoyable day-to-day if one puts away worries of schools, crime waves, etc. for me to live on the UWS. Some of my joy comes no doubt from pedestrian and suburb-like amenities within walking as opposed to driving distance. I don't exactly lead a Mary McCarthy GV-like writer lifestyle. If I had to break it down, I would say that my neighborhood has been remade by people who like the same things as me - kind of a Disney-fied "fake" UWS. In the same way, various burbs populated by "people like me" have been remade. "Fake" Main St, Banana Republics, Ann Taylors galore with a sushi joint or two...

> And as Lizyank points out so eloquently, "Manhattan" life today is quite suburban...

Except its wrong... by definition.

Not saying Manhattan hasn't lost a few steps in certain areas, but pretending its not a city its nonsense. Changes in urban life, sure, talk about that, but nonsensical comparisons don't mean anything.

btw, call it disneyification, whatever you want... but to me its the folks who weren't here or have faulty memories that "miss" the urine smell, the crime, etc.

Folks saying they miss times square, only because they want to go off on folks who moved in since.

I think thats extra loser in my book.

Rhino, or watching teevee for ten hours a day or enjoying some quiet.

"Where else can you lose so much of your net worth buying a one bedroom apartment with poor timing?"

Its called demand.

An in general, there has been a pretty strong demand to leave the suburbs.

Somewhere else: I'm getting a picture of you as a 20-ish young man. Can't shake myself of this.

Rhino - repeat after me, "What sucks less?"

> try reading a book

Because the suburbs are all about reading? I didn't know. Opra book club I guess.

"or enjoying some quiet rather than chasing down your next $11 glass of wine and pretending you liked some play because the other people you like to think are smart liked it. "

I don't drink wine, I'd rather have pepsi. I don't buy expensive meals just to say I did. I love pizza and burgers and baseball games and apple pie.

And I still vehemently dislike what the suburbs have become.

"rather than chasing down your next $11 glass of wine and pretending you liked some play because the other people you like to think are smart liked it. "

and this comes right after folks complained about suburban stereotypes.

puhleeeze.

My wife and I came back to NY for a week to make a decision to return or not to return. At the time we were still living in a big house on Vancouver Island but were bored to tears. So we came back hoping to rekindle the romance of the city we both shared and missed. On the wall of the furnished apartment we rented for the week was a framed letter from George Gershwin thanking the recipient for the use of their Paris apartment. It was signed by George with three bars of handwritten music from his new composition. He titled it "An American In Paris". Our house was on the market the following week.

What sucks less? I think I could find a decent time and enjoy my life here or somewhere else. I dont think this is the end all be all, definitionally better than everything else.

That's drastic, Spinny - isn't Victoria for the "Newly weds and Nearly dead"

You want to move to the burbs, your wife won't hear of it?

Hugely frustrating. We lasted a year but luckily made out well. Before that we were in Banff for a few years skiing and making babies... It was a good call to return.

Rhino - do you like manhattan lifestyle but are just embittered by the high cost of living? I really don't think you can compare manhattan life to suburban life.

AH: I alluded to that, but I think the breadwinner (and commuter) gets to make the final call.

Banff - VI - UWS.

nyc10023...

Part 1: No, the person who stays at home chooses the home.

Part 2: Was that your itinerary, or spin's?

or *just* spin's

Comparing manhattan to suburbs is exactly what I can do and will do. Yes if I made two mil conistently I'd prob stay. Oh wait I might buy a big home in Greenwich and hire a driver haha.

because we are stupid

agree that affordability is frustrating. as i mentioned, its not a cake walk for us. but i do think lifestyle is so different from one setting to another, at least for a sahm like myself. if i worked out of the home it may not seem so different.

Was that American in Paris thing intended to make me sick? And clearly the person making the money and doing the commuting carries a little more weight. A stay at home mom enjoys that now-luxury for reason of the breadwinner. Should same say money is made to be spent let's stay here and put it all back into the ground then so be it.

Yes, the one who wants to work chooses the workplace, and the one who wants to stay at home chooses the home. Each carries more weight for his/her own time.

Total bullshit. Not when it's such a huge monetary decision. The stay at home mom cannot mandate manhattan. Neither can the spouse for that matter. I just wanted to stir it up. Clearly the stay at home cannot force
a budget on the husband. If that were the case couldn't the husband say, well you work and I chose to stay at home... In the burbs haha.

She is your wife,
hello city life.

As the stay-at-home spouse, I say it should be heavily weighted towards the breadwinning partner. It's stressful enough having to make the dough to carry the family.

i don't know. i think we (hubby and i) make these decisions together. it is stressful to be the sole breadwinner, but it's also stressful to be the stay at home, single parent 80% of the time. we've agreed to stick it out until one of us calls it. ultimately, both people need to be happy with where and how you live as a couple/family.

The Rhino family in their suburban home: http://www.archive.org/details/American1958

I know why I want to live here but for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would want to live with Rhino here.

Of course the Gershwin story was lame but if it induced a gag response from Rhino it might have been worth it. : o

This is an argument that can and will go on forever. I will say echoing some of the previous posters the ground between city and burbs has narrowed considerably. Burbs have crime, traffic, sky high taxes but much greater diversity than before. The city has less crime and in both areas, local retailing has virtually been killed off by national chains. I'm not sure at what age city kids have run of the city anymore but I somehow doubt at 9 or 10 they are running around the subway like we did, making them as reliant on adults for transport as suburban counterparts. And city kids today (at least the "middle class" ones play organized sports and have all other trappings of what was formerly considered a suburban childhood down to the overdone bar mitzvah/quincenera/sweet sixteen.

I think in the end its a space versus convenience issue. Commuting sucks but alot of people don't feel comfortable living en famille in 1200 sq ft. What I really don't understand is single people who choose to live outside Manhattan or its nearest neighbors. If you don't have kids, wtf do you need with a schlepp and yard to take of? But that's just a total gutter rat talking.

just curious: to the people who are bashing the burbs, how many of you have actually lived in the burbs? Not all burbs have high density and lots of traffic. The burbs vary greatly. In NJ, for instance, living in Fort Lee is much different than living in Upper Saddle River. The 2 towns share almost nothing in common. You can't lump all of the burbs into one group and make broad generalizations.

Stir it up rhino. But as with all things in life 'who's got hand?'. One other thing, it's best to find someone when neither of you have a 'career'. Like if my wife and I got divorced it would be a prenuptial for the next fella/ gal. Like my mom says the older you get the more $ matters in relationships. So look up your hs sweetie rhino.

Let me lump all presidents together. They are all morons. :).

Clearly where to live is a joint decision. Clearly there are pros and cons to both city and suburbs. Not sure I follow why I should look up my high school sweetheart, w67. I need more than 1200 feet with two kids. At current market price, I dont see the tradeoffs working for me here in the city. Now if things fell another 30%, it would be interesting. All this said, with one kid (no school yet), rents where they are...I think living here right now is a no brainer. I have enough time to watch the market fall down here and make a reasonable decision...with my wife...not by here alone or me alone haha.

I'll bash the burbs and I grew up in them. It was awful - and this was the worst part of growing up in my small town in fairfield county, CT:

current demographics:
3.7% of residents are Latino
89.87% of residents are Caucasian
1.26% of residents are of African descent 1.3%
3.55% of residents are of Asian descent 3.6%
1.43% of residents are of undetermined descent 1.4%

I think its actually become more diverse than it was when I lived there.

I wonder how meaningfully different the Upper East Side or Upper West Side is from that, below 96th. Now, if you want to live in Inwood or Harlem, whatever suits you. It seems to me most places we here talk about and live in are probably similar to that. And picking up on some other peoples points, the store selection is no more eclectic than anything you might find in a suburb.

I still dont see how one stay at home spouse can force another to provide a lifestyle they dont find desirable or attractively prices. All this said, if prices fall 50% peak to trough, I may buy something put the baby into PS 6 and see what the 2011-2016 bring. While I'm the first bear to say 50% off is not the floor, its probably a reasonably safe 7-year buy point.

"Commuting sucks but alot of people don't feel comfortable living en famille in 1200 sq ft."

Of course, being more expensive doesn't make the city any less desirable, it just makes it... more expensive. So, that doesn't at all support the "suburbs don't suck" argument.

"I'll bash the burbs and I grew up in them. It was awful - and this was the worst part of growing up in my small town in fairfield county, CT"

In one town in fairfield I know, the folks on the block were all talking about the new "oriental" family that moved in.

Sure cost comes into it. If you make fixed dollars of X, you need to compare the lifestyle you could afford in Manhattan vs the lifestyle you could afford somewhere else.

I call bullshit on use of the word 'oriental' by someone under the age of 60.

Rhino, Per your calling bs, you have clearly been in New York for too long.