Wjy we want to live in Manhattan

I agree with Rhino that what are often called the "desirable" areas of Manhattan (especially for families with kids in public schools) are no more diverse than many suburbs and a good deal less than some--although class tracking can make diversity within a school a moot point. Funny I was part of a program in the 60s called (don't laugh this was before drugs in 70s and beyond) "Intellectually Gifted Children". My understanding was that it was cancelled a short time later because it tended to be an instument of racial segregation--intended or not. Now it sounds like tracking is back in public school, honestly don't know how I feel about it. Not a parent but I would want both the best education and diversity for my kid. Might be willing to give up a little of former for the latter because you can enrich education at home, you can't manufacture diversity.

We lived in Jersey until the kids were ready to go to school and then deliberately moved to Manhattan so that I could share the child rearing with my wife; i take them to school, settle them in, come down and do recess duty, help them when they are sick etc....and yet am able to hold a finance job that takes 60 hours a week. I would NEVER see them if we were out there. It works for us for now, and I do sometimes miss the serenity of the burbs, but i don't miss the neverending home and car maintenance, the clannish feel where your neighbors are consumed with extended family, etc. Also kids go to public school in the west village which is an experience they will have for the rest of their lives.

with a 60 hour work week, I doubt you see your kids much anyway so you might as well have stayed in NJ.

"I'll bash the burbs and I grew up in them. It was awful - and this was the worst part of growing up in my small town in fairfield county, CT:

current demographics:
3.7% of residents are Latino
89.87% of residents are Caucasian
1.26% of residents are of African descent 1.3%
3.55% of residents are of Asian descent 3.6%
1.43% of residents are of undetermined descent 1.4%

I think its actually become more diverse than it was when I lived there."

Most white people would consider those demographics an adavantage. That's the truth. Most white people wo not like diverse areas. Neither do Koreans.

The may be true but it is not something that I want for my myself or my kids. I grew up with certain attitudes and stereotypes about different races that I do not want my children to have. For the most part I have gotten over it, but when I first moved to nyc I felt very uncomfortable walking down 125th st, and five years later we're moving to Harlem. I'm a young, white guy by the way, don't let the user ID fool you.

The other awful thing about living in CT was that you have to drive everywhere, and nearly everything was closed by 10 or 11PM (on the weekend) except 7-11 and diners.

Oh god, and that rule that you couldn't buy alcohol in stores after 8pm or on sundays. I'm having terrible flashbacks...

So you are moving to Harlem? At least you make a coherent case. What I laugh at is people saying the burbs are all white, so they live on the Upper West so their children can experience diversity and they can access eclectic shops. Oh yes, and they send their children to private schools. People should do whatever they like, just not intellectualize it. This said, if you are moving to Harlem then bravo to you. I think that could be pretty cool. The issue of schooling would make it tough for me.

"Also kids go to public school in the west village which is an experience they will have for the rest of their lives."

Please help me understand what this means. In a desirable West Village PS district, who all is your child coming into contact with that makes it such a unique experience?

I'd kill for my husband to have a 60hr work week. It would afford one LOTS of time.

You wish he worked more or worked less? Haha. Maybe this is my problem with Manhattan. I never had the inclination to be an investment banker or a corporate lawyer.

This is a lengthy discussion so clearly I missed it along the way but Rhino86, do you live in NYC and if so, is it just because of your work? You seem to prefer the suburbs or maybe I'm misunderstanding your comments.

I think you misunderstand. Let me be clear. I do live at 86th & Madison. I do enjoy living in NYC. We have one child and we rent a 2 bed/2 bath. My points here are basically the following. A second child makes the decision to stay in NYC a difficult one, given the lifestyle alternatives available for the same or less money. This is something my wife and I will wrestle with several years in the future. Interesting, this will allow for the adjustment in real estate prices to play out. My other point here, is that my least favorite part of Manhattan is that some people you encounter [read: including this thread] seem to strike a posture of intellectual and/or cultural superiority over those who might struggle with the decision to stay in Manhattan, or worse yet decide the total package is not worth the price to them.

Okay, now I will go back into character.

Rhino86, Sometimes people change over time- they get a little older and become very conscious of money and how much it costs to raise a family. Living here you do meet people who say that they would only live in NYC, but I doubt that is true in many instances. I don't find that most people who live here take advantage of many of the city's cultural aspects- to me, many people are the same people that I knew growing up in the suburbs. But I also live on the UES.

Sorry- to me, many people who live in NYC are the same people

Feel for you, uwsmom. Billable hours are the devil.

Bringing up more than 1 child in Manhattan is not an economic decision, in general. Of course, there are exceptions (say our kids all tested into selective high schools & we moved n. of 96th). We could move to a nice Westchester burb tomorrow and rent a 4br fully renovated house - in our situation, we would save $. I think that the price rise from 2001 to 2009 in Westchester is also somewhat bubblicious. Dealbreaker is how much time our family breadwinner gets to spend with the children. It's hard to assign a number to that. Of course, you could make the argument that we could save the $ now and retirement would be feasible much sooner.

Rhino, I agree generally with your points but I think you are a bit oversensitive. E.g. I don't think wanting to enjoy some cultural diversity equates to cultural superiority. Having lived in a number of places, its something I want as well. But I don't define it solely in terms of race.

"Bringing up more than 1 child in Manhattan is not an economic decision, in general."

Is this a typo?

"Of course, you could make the argument that we could save the $ now and retirement would be feasible much sooner."

This is part of my point and my calculus.

As well, one could try something crazy, like living in a 2500-3000 space in the suburbs and making a career decision in line with spending time with ones kids....like working out there, or taking a cut in pay for fewer hours to offset some of that train time.

Rhino - economic should be economical.

Though in this case, economic would work as well. Based on current numbers, if one chooses to stay in Manhattan (absent some specific circumstances) with more than 1 child, the decision is not economic, i.e. it's a "lifestyle" decision to spend more $ for intangibles.

Malthus....go back and read some of this thread and tell me its not superiority. Or even if its not superiority in this thread, then I stick to the idea that it exists here in NYC, its kinda common, and I find it very annoying.

NYC10023, I see what you are saying. I thought you were saying the decision is not a matter of economics. It seems to me it is, and you seem to agree. Yes, it costs money to stay here. All I am saying is that different people assign different values to these intangibles. What I am saying here (among other things), that on the current landscape, I'd probably move out... Now if I make $2mm in 2011 that may change...and/or if prices fall another 30%.

I think retirement is a huge and overlooked issue. If you make $500k, which I would say for me and how I want to live is borderline for 2 kids in Manhattan (cue the elitist commentary)...Simply put the NYC taxes in a savings account and thats gonna snowball in 25 years. And I think we can agree that the taxes are only a component of the additional cost of being here. The flip side is I never have and probably never would work more than 60 hours... So I still might be home before your husband even if I lived in CT. That is not a judgement, that's just my decision. This said, if I had made the live decisions that had me as a partner in a law firm right now, I might be willing to pay more for the time component of this equation.

Rhino - yes we're moving to Harlem and when we have kids, which will be within a couple years, we intend on sending them to the local public schools. We are big proponents of this, and frankly, we couldn't afford private school anyways. My wife is a teacher in the bronx, so we know what we're getting into with the local schools...somewhat.

Right so you are the real deal.

You GO, mmarquez!

If all parents were as involved in their children's education, all public schools would be "good" schools!

"Also kids go to public school in the west village which is an experience they will have for the rest of their lives."

Not that distinct from the one they would have had going to public school in say, Darien. Can't even say minus the SUVs because as I learned (thank you 10023), people get their kids into the WV schools, move to other areas and schlepp them by car ala the 'burbs. Today's West Village is a virtual theme park of affluent over consumerism which enough touch of "boho" (yes, let's get a hybrid Lexus to take us to the beach) to pay homage to an totally overly imagined past (I'd say forty five years ago maybe 10%, 20% of that area was "artistic"). Yes, there is a something of an influence of Europeans living their but a French investment banker or one from Sweden is not that different from one from Massachuttes.

The minute I started seeing either real blondes or really upscale dye jobs in my neighborhood I knew it had officially gone to hell.

I believe the myopia and prejudices of some life-long New Yorkers is actually the best argument against raising children here.

Yeah I agree. What's the opposite of 'salt of the earth'?

You want good, honest, cheerful, modest types? Move to the Midwest or Canada.

No just fewer full of shit pseudo intellectuals.

Rhino86, what you write is interesting to me in that I'm wondering who are these people that that you know who feel that NYC is the only place to raise children. Most of the people that I've met both living in the UES for many years and in the suburbs feel the opposite. It's so expensive to raise children here that many people choose the suburban public schools for their children as the more affordable option. Maybe it's your very affluent neighborhood of East 86th Street and Madison/5th Avenue. I used to get manicures at DMV Salon which is right near your building and they did cater to a very affluent crowd (excluding myself). I've just found most people understand how expensive it is to raise children here and that most people can't afford it once they have more than one child.

What do you mean? They are on this thread. One person, I forget which, said they moved back to give the children the oppty to go to school in the West Village. Maybe the issue he is whether we are talking about what parents prefer or what is best for children.

Well I know I'm not a full of shit psuedo intellectual. FOS, maybe but I'm about as far from a psuedo intellectual ...unless reading the New Yorker has traded places with listening to Mike Francesa.

Malthus, I didn't know it was myopia and prejudice to think less of an area where (as I think I've mentioned on SE before) you can buy a $1K+ handbag at three different locations within a block radius but you can't get a carton of milk. In my mind one of the greatest things about NYC is having the necessities of life at your beck and call, sorry but I'll travel for a four-figure purse.

Oh and the blonde thing...that was a joke. I was going to issue an apology to Deirde O'Hara, and my best friend's kid sister and a the other light haired ladies whose roots (no pun intended) in the 'hood go back when Cafe Cluny was George Hertz saloon...but I didn't think it was necessary.

> I call bullshit on use of the word 'oriental' by someone under the age of 60.

You don't get out much, do you. Go outside NYC, and its all over the place...

"Sure cost comes into it. If you make fixed dollars of X, you need to compare the lifestyle you could afford in Manhattan vs the lifestyle you could afford somewhere else. "

Sure... but that doesn't make the cheaper place any better. Talk value, but it doesn't make it suck less.

The yugo is much cheaper, probably a better value if you just need to get around vs. the maserati. But it doesn't mean the yugo doesn't suck...

"I believe the myopia and prejudices of some life-long New Yorkers is actually the best argument against raising children here."

Of course, if its a reason to not live here, what do you do with the fact thats its much worse in the burbs?

As I said, its not about being the best, its about sucking the least.

"Most white people would consider those demographics an adavantage. That's the truth. Most white people wo not like diverse areas. Neither do Koreans."

Well, of course, the people who need it most want it the least...

But doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

Hell, do you want your kids to live in the suburbs and be like alpo? The nightmare.

'Yeah I agree. What's the opposite of 'salt of the earth'? '

A. 'pepper of the earth'

'No just fewer full of shit pseudo intellectuals.'

A. No argument there

Well, I have heard your lament on the WV many times before. I think its way over the top, as I think I have said before -- if you don't like Bleecker Street between West 10th and Hudson, don't go there. I don't. But its hardly the whole WV and easy to avoid. Anyway I understand the desire to go back to the way things were but constant change is one of the things that defines a vibrant city (and usually does not exist in a suburb).

But I was really getting at, was that you would state that a school there is the same as in Darien because you heard somebody dropped their kid of with an SUV. I don't know Darien very well but I would take a wild guess you don't either.

Likewise to say that everyone from any place in the world is the same because of what they do for a living is pretty much the definition of prejudgment.

Commuting is a pain in the neck. Manhattan has everything. Restaurants, parties, celebs, business opportunities. It's all at your doorstep. If you don't understand the value of living in the center of the universe, you should move to the suburbs. I can understand moving to the suburbs to have kids. Private schools are very expensive. Also kids should be able to play in the street and on grass and not have to worry about running into traffic. However, living in the city is the most intense experience on earth. You can't get it anywhere else.

I live here because when it rains it makes an interesting gravey...............

Alpo was raised in Manhattan.

Somewhereelse I think you suck.

I admit to have never visited Darien (they probably wouldn't let me in, and before someone thinks that's an ethnic remark I'd say the same about Scarsdale) and just used it as a place holder for "white bread, lily white, upscale suburb". I did used to work with a bunch of people who lived in Darien and that is certainly the impression they gave me of the place (and I LIKED them)

As for Hudson Street etc. I have not set foot there since I sold my apartment almost two years ago. I would have stopped going there many, many years before but I had a moral imperative in the form of a 90 year old mother who didn't want to leave the place she had lived since before WWII so my options were limited. And yes you can call me a hypocrite for buying and selling an apartment in a neighborhood I had no longer any love for at signficant profit and not donating the proceeds to the Blimpie Home for Ex West Side Delinquents (actually I did make significant donations to causes my Mom and I both supported) but wouldn't my "taking the money and running" just make me fit in better with the Wall St. folks?

> Alpo was raised in Manhattan.

And couldn't hack it. We know, this has been well covered. NYC upbringing can't save *everyone*. Clearly his parents had issues....

"It's all at your doorstep. If you don't understand the value of living in the center of the universe, you should move to the suburbs."

Bingo.

If you're only going to the museum once a year, suburbs are fine. Hell, the museums in Boston are fine. Why pay for world class and access if you don't use it.

"I can understand moving to the suburbs to have kids. Private schools are very expensive."

Well, of course, not everyone can afford anything they want. But thats an affortability issue, not a quality issue.

"However, living in the city is the most intense experience on earth. You can't get it anywhere else."

and if you are living in the pseudo burbs of brooklyn and not getting it, why pay for it (even at a discount)?

Liz, if we ever meet at one of the SE meetups, I just know that you're going to make fun of my hair since I do the highlight/lowlights to give my hair more fullness. But you better not be wearing your Hermes scarf. Have a great weekend.

Don't worry Lobster, I've gone highlighted blonde myself...it was that or 1)have my hair "naturally" lighter...not acceptable or 2) do single process every 4-6 weeks and I don't have the paitence for that frequent maintenance. I can't remember the last time I wore the Hermes scarf (full disclosure I have two) and almost gave them away last time I purged. But you never know...one day I might want to pass as something...(and one was specifically selected for me by my friends since it features a large black and white cat who looks remarkably like my feline companion at the time,now gone to kitty heaven)

And I hope we do get a chance to meet. Anyone who tolerates my rants is worth buying a beer for!

"Anyone who tolerates my rants is worth buying a beer for!"

What about those of us who actually enjoy them? Two beers?

Rhino86
Alpo was raised in Manhattan.
Somewhereelse I think you suck.

So you want to punch Alpo or Somewhereelse? Or both?

Liz, Like bjw, I actually enjoy your comments. You have the ability to both accurately perceive a situation and to express what you're seeing in writing. And believe it or not, my parents didn't name me Lobster- my first name is Michelle. Now I have to make myself something to eat so that my dog who wants to share my dinner can have some.

i can't imagine a better backyard than riverside and central park. and as 10023 pointed out, you don't get unplanned playdates with other kids or conversations w/ other parents in your backyard in the burbs.

"Well, of course, not everyone can afford anything they want. But thats an affortability issue, not a quality issue."

What kind of issue is it when you prefer the $1.5mm house to the $1.5mm apartment? That's a preference issue. However, if you are saying if money were no object, would one buy a townhouse? Hmmm, maybe so.
Again, its kind of both a preference issue and a money issue, if you dont think things are worth their price. Not everyone doesnt buy expensive jeans because they cant afford them. Some people dont view them as worth it.

and if anyone has an hermes leather tote they want to get rid of, i will humbly accept.

Liz, I am a fan of your rants too. Too bad I didnt meet u last time. Maybe next.

Aw shucks people...Thanks for the support. Guess I have to have a job before the next SE meetup (God willing)...

Yes, I was riased in Manhattan. On Grand Street to be precise. And don't forget that I wnt to PS6 too.

who'd you have for 3rd grade?

Manhattanites are so diverse and tolerant...Like Alpo.

Grand Street isn't exactly in the PS 6 district...how did that work?

fake address, no doubt.

Ah so pieces of doo doo raise pieces of doo doo.

"Yes, I was riased in Manhattan. On Grand Street to be precise. And don't forget that I wnt to PS6 too."

Sometimes, even mastering spell check is a challenge.

Why do you live in Manhattan? Because it's the best? Because it's the center sophistication and wealth? Manhattan is the only livable place in the United States.

I like being in the center of everything and all my friends across the country are envious of my Manhattan address.

For the first time, I am convinced you are having fun with a character. That character being the quintessential little shit.

check out this post about a back and forth on buying in Manhattan based on its more macro, long term fiscal and demographic outlook:
http://www.urbandigs.com/2009/12/the_futures_so_bright_dont_bre.html

The key to this matter of buying or not buying in Manhattan is less the 2010 outlook and more the long term trajectory of the finance industry, the changes to mortgage interest tax breaks, availability of loans and the condo supply.

Ideally all of the benefits of Manhattan could extend to areas outside but near or adjacent to prime Manhattan, such as Brooklyn, Queens, Hoboken and Jersey City, etc.

We're all products of our own experience, and I don't think we can lump all of Manhattan into one category. We lived in two different suburbs (one close in, walkable in southern Westchester and one nearly rural in northern Westchester) for 9 years, and now we live in Harlem. For us, it's been a huge benefit and a joy to come to the city. Our experience was if you don't fit the mold in the suburbs, you are going to have a hard time. The schools couldn't deal with our brilliant but disabled daughter, and the PTA couldn't seem to embrace a working mom (and I was trying very hard to be part of that community). Now, we are in schools that are great for both girls, we live in a diverse and welcoming neighborhood (my kids are invited to tea parties with a gaggle of neighborhood girls, we are part of a holiday open house network and Halloween is amazing on our block), and I'm home for dinner most every night. Days off from school my kids have been to museums, plays, concerts. A few years ago the bodies exhibit at South Street convinced one of my kids that she wanted to be a doctor because she couldn't imagine anything more amazing or complex than the systems she was seeing. Did we go to SOME plays, museums etc. when we lived in the burbs? Yeah, we did, but it was a special occasion rarity. I freely confess(and you can call me a sap) that last year when I ran the marathon and turned into Harlem and heard the gospel choirs and saw an octogenarian nun swinging a bell that looked too heavy for her to lift, I started to cry and thought, "I'm home." To answer the OP, that's why we live in Manhattan.

The access to culture, amazing food, and basically any product you would want - often within walking distance, is pretty incredible and unique. Additionally, it's a great social environment - both for meeting people and for staying in touch with people one knows from different stages of life. That said, a lot of the impetus to live here is because of the jobs that are here and a desire to not have a long commute. All of the benefits of the city could be easily outweighed by a 1-1.5 hour reverse commute each way.

This "diversity" talk disgusts me. When people say they want to send their children to a "diverse" school, they really mean they want there to be a few token minorities there so they can feel less guilty about the fact that they'd never in a million years let their kid go to a New York City public school where whites are in the minority.

Right, kind of like in Pennsylvania.

I like to live here because it reminds me of sailing.

Sailing is like taking a cold shower with all your clothes on while flushing 100 dollar bills down the toilet.

bob_d, because that's not diversity. 80% black or hispanic is NOT diverse. Basic mathematics. And those schools you speak of are all low-performing schools.

There is nothing I would love more than a TRULY diverse high performing high scoring school. It's impossible to find that. So I'll just stick with "token minorities" until I can find that.

"80% black or hispanic is NOT diverse"

40% black, 40% hispanic, 20% white is not diverse? Why? Because diversity means 80% white with 20% token minorities (most of them Asian) to make liberals feel less guilty about avoiding genuinely diverse schools.

"And those schools you speak of are all low-performing schools."

"Low-performing schools" is just a euphemism used by liberals to describe a school full of blacks and Hispanics. As if the school itself is to blame. If you switched all the students between Dalton and some "low-performing" public school, what do you think would happen?

Better in Pennsylvania

Does living on the streets of West 64th street consider living in Manhattan ?

bob_d , I meant 80% black or 80% Hispanic is not diverse.

In NYC, the schools seem to be either vast majority black or vast majority Hispanic. And then they're mixed they're 95% black/Hispanic and 5% white.

And yes, LOW PERFORMING SCHOOLS.

I would take the 40% black, 40% hispanic, 20% white in a heartbeat if they were good performing schools.

And re: Dalton..that's a socioeconomic issue not racial. If Dalton was made up of 60% wealthy minorities, it would still be a high performing school. Poor people tend to have "issues" when it comes to education.

...just like I wouldn't want my kid enrolled in a 80% trailer park school in South Carolina.

I want racially mixed, but economically well to do.

mommyesq.... oh, lord... pls go back to the burbs, we don't need another nyc marathon running, my kids are gonna be doctors, I'm better than the burbs PTA, teachers who don't realize what gifted kids I have... parent in nyc.
Pls, pls reconsider.....

599GTB, which color? I've been leaning towards the 575 as the manual 599 are so hard to come by... but then I'd have to lose traction control... choices choices as nyc re bubble deflates... lovez being a renter...

please don't lose traction control.

"nyc marathon running"

Yeah, I hate marathon-running women, it makes them look androgenous with saggy breasts. Why can't they exercise by lifting weights like Britney Spears does?

"16 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse
mommyesq.... oh, lord... pls go back to the burbs, we don't need another nyc marathon running, my kids are gonna be doctors, I'm better than the burbs PTA, teachers who don't realize what gifted kids I have... parent in nyc.
Pls, pls reconsider.....

599GTB, which color? I've been leaning towards the 575 as the manual 599 are so hard to come by... but then I'd have to lose traction control... choices choices as nyc re bubble deflates... lovez being a renter..." Finally, after all these months, I agree with you.

you agree w/ me?
Alrighty then, when you can agree with me that you did not:
1) invent the alphabet;
2) create language;
3) make the personal computer;
4) fabricate the keyboard;
5) make the internet;
6) kill the cow you ate last nite;
7) string the power lines into your cat filled studio;
and admit that the sacrifices ppl have made for generations before you allow you to be the selfish whining little julialarge, we can have a conversation.

Which keyboard? You know that real typists prefer the Dvorak.

finally, yes we can all agree, the only true ferrari is a red v12, w/a a manual

Good point about the women and marathons. Which gym would you recommend for spotting weight lifting women? (please, no gym that charges you after you've quit)

w67thstreet,

red. :)

And manual is painful in traffic. "Auto Mode" can be savior.

can be a savior*