Are >70% of buyers at Toren walking away from their contracts?

As you can see i started a thread on this very issue!

There was an article where that Toren has been approved for FHA and has started closing!

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/16799-toren-to-start-closing

I'm interested in Junkman's point of view regarding the building and it's future outlook within the next 5 years. This isn't meant to "rub" anything or to say "I told you so". I'm interested in what type of concessions he might be getting or might be asking from the sponsor - be it reduced price, "free" construction build within unit, parking, or whatever.

> This isn't meant to "rub" anything or to say "I told you so".

Although... well... I did tell you so.

I don't think the number of people walking is set in stone. Not everyone has received closing letters. I also don't believe any concessions are being made. As for junkman - he can speak for himself.

Junkman walked when the markets crashed in 08.

If you're out there junkman, best wishes.

I feel bad for Junkman if he walked away from his deposit. Not an easy situation to deal with.

Contracts signed in 2007, 2008 + Developer not negotiating = many people walking away from contracts/deposits

"Contracts signed in 2007, 2008 + Developer not negotiating = many people walking away from contracts/deposits"

Yeah pretty much. I don't think the decision to walk was that painful. For most people, it is the only decision that you can justify for an apartment you don't plan to keep forever...Also, with the coming subway changes, living in Brooklyn has instantly become less attractive.

Wait a minute...the W subway line doesn't even have a stop in Brooklyn, and the Z has 8 stops, half of which are served by other lines. How much "less attractive" is that? I think the Chuch Schumer calling a flight attendant a "bitch" has larger implications!

"Wait a minute...the W subway line doesn't even have a stop in Brooklyn, and the Z has 8 stops, half of which are served by other lines. How much "less attractive" is that? I think the Chuch Schumer calling a flight attendant a "bitch" has larger implications!"

All subway and bus routes will be receiving cuts in service - especially over weekends, afternoons, and post-"rush hour" - as stated in every news article I have read on the topic. Everyone will be affected yes, but being that much farther away will be felt more acutely.

"I'm interested in Junkman's point of view regarding the building and it's future outlook within the next 5 years. This isn't meant to "rub" anything or to say "I told you so". I'm interested in what type of concessions he might be getting or might be asking from the sponsor - be it reduced price, "free" construction build within unit, parking, or whatever."

I guess junkman tries to not think about real estate anymore.

broker drops listing once sale closes. streeteasy drops listing when broker does. a sale doesn't post at streeteasy until the docs are recorded and post on acris. there is a lag time between the closing and posting at acris.

subway changes are irrelevant to this area.

this chatboard sounds like the healthcare reform debate. everyone knows everything about nothing.

BrooklynLove

After reading your many very informative posts on Wired.com - Brownstoner.com And Curbed I have come to the conclusion that you must be a developer or related to the Developers of Toren (Joe F.?)...!

According to Acris and PropertyShark there is ONE recorded closing for TOREN.

It will be almost impossible in todays market to close many units at full ask at Toren or any other Condo in brooklyn or Manhattan. The sooner the Developers get in on this fact the quicker they will SELL OUT!

as i said, there is a lag betw closing and recording of docs on acris. it should be interesting to see how the units close at toren. only point i'm tying to make is that you can't base conclusion on streeteasy. or acris - in real time.

i have nothing to do with toren. if they're not dropping prices it's likely b/c their financing conditions and/or cost basis makes that unfeasible (or possibly not even an option). this was the case at forte and be@schem. until someone else took over the building of course at a new cost basis and under different terms. FHA is soon to be a meaningless b/c the govt has now put them underwater just like they did to fannie and freddie.

Brooklynlove

Great info as usual. So if you are not involved with TOREN your career must be in developement or in some kind of real estate field. You are much too informed for the average Joe.

^ --- ??? From that logic, everybody on http://wirednewyork.com/, http://community.emporis.com/skyscrapers/, http://www.skyscrapercity.com/ are in the real estate field. Some people just like construction, architecture, and tall buildings.

Who cares? The goal should be to spread accurate information, regardless of its source - be it profession, research, hobby, whatever.

Exactly who cares. Would rather read accurate info than those from clueless folks.

Regarding Toren, the closing updates should come in bunches just as the closing letters did.

to jumpstart sales, the stakeholders need to adjust the profits they were expecting-bank, developer, broker.

and on a message board, how do you know who knows and who doesnt?? you dont. only thing you can do here is look at what everyone writes and use your own intelligence and research to come to your own conclusion.

but people that have alterior motives...they can be spotted a mile away on here

darwinism? some figure it out. some don't.

weren't you a huge proponent of buying over a year ago?

seems like you are on the wrong side of the darwin argument.

i'm a proponent of buying NYC RE anytime at the right price. if you paid anything near asking price in dec 2008 then you're a fool.

> if you paid anything near asking price in dec 2008 then you're a fool.

Funny how you're limiting it to just one month.

If you bought anywhere near asking price in the years before that, you're a fool as well.

ok all of 2008 and most of 2007. what's your point?

flmao. 94th and madison $550psf for C7..... stop it, youre gonna make me pee in my best thong.

> ok all of 2008 and most of 2007. what's your point?

Point is, thats a whole lot of fools....

for every fool there is a non-fool.

"for every fool there is a non-fool"

serious?

I think BL is trying to lead us to believe he got such a deal the fact that the biggest RE crash in history came right after didn't matter.

Of course, whatever deal he thinks he got, its hard to believe that anybody with common sense could have gotten a major discount to that after a 25% decline.

In the end, its hard to escape the 'buying at the absolute peak of the biggest re bubble in hisstory' factor.

for every person who bought at the peak, there is a person who sold at peak. that's what the statement means.

btw, there are actually now a decent amount of properties in nyc selling for more than they were bought at 2007 asking prices.

if buying after a 25% decline is such a no brainer, did you do it mr. buffett? i think that the answer is pretty clear.

"for every person who bought at the peak, there is a person who sold at peak. that's what the statement means."

Ah, true. And had folks listened to me, they could have been the... "non-fool".

"btw, there are actually now a decent amount of properties in nyc selling for more than they were bought at 2007 asking prices. "

You should post those on the comp threads. Because all the example they have show the opposite....

"if buying after a 25% decline is such a no brainer, did you do it mr. buffett? i think that the answer is pretty clear."

You are confused. While not buying before a 25% decline would be smart, this does not necessarily mean buying right after the decline is smart, either. Particularly if the declines continue... or even if it just stays flat for a while, and renting is cheaper.

just like you're not telling the knowledgeless masses about how you missed the run-up, i'm sure that you'll fail to tell us about how you miss the rebound. get over yourself, you're completely transparent.

It is known at this time there are approximately 6 occupants in the building. As a contract holder, I have been given a closing letter but I'm not interested in closing at this time. There are better deals at ORO, One Brooklyn Park, Forte (sold out).

"just like you're not telling the knowledgeless masses about how you missed the run-up"

> i'm sure that you'll fail to tell us about how you miss the rebound

I didn't miss the rebound. My portfolio did amazingly in the past few months. Those who were still stuck in RE, double whammy!

And you're still confused. I told you buying after a 25% decline is NOT a no brainer, because it can get worse.

And, my, my, I was right... it did. Manhattan fell again (Another 5%) and Brooklyn another 8%.

Whoops...

> get over yourself, you're completely transparent.

Transparent + 100% correct is a good recipe.

I am hoping Toren blows up a la Be at Schermerhorn and they refund everybody's deposits

The building took 50% more time to finish than Avalon Bay's building next door, which was staled for like 4 months. You never know what will happen. They advertise a lot... but they're throwing money out the window advertising 2007 prices.

in my opinion the developers already made a calculation that they are not going to make any money here, and they are surreptitiously but intentionally leading the situation towards a forte-like outcome. I also think they dont have very much skin in the game anyways so they are kind of like "oh well, bad timing, lets write it off as a loss and move on". The way they have treated contract holders is not at all what i thought, I thought they would be really handling me with kid gloves, really trying to make it work, instead, any time you ask a question to enable you to make a fully informed decision they are basically like Ef you, if you want your money back sue us.

From what it sounds like, the sponsor will not let sales please the people and sales has lost their kid gloves because they've probably been dealing with a lot of angry contract holders.

no sales only handles lambs going quietly to the slaughter, anyone who is thinking and asking questions gets handed off to the lawyers, who mainly stonewall.

I wish I could say something to help you feel better. Every other condominium in the neighborhood is willing to do high $500s to low $600 per sqft. Toren is basically 240 apartments built on top of what used to be a failed Kentucky Fried Chicken. There's no hope for the building selling out at the prices they're asking now. They're just hoping that everyone who rushed in and signed 2 years ago will close so they can perform a price reduction. I just can't imagine closing and then watch them cut prices by 20% in July 2010.

Looks like some closings are happening, but still a big number in contract 80+%,not counting those who are in the process of suing to get their deposits back. 70% may be the right number!

It's not. Many of the units listed on Streeteasy as temp off market have actually closed (don't ask me why or how, I have no idea). Also, Toren's getting a supermarket on the bottom floor...and for those concerned about the "riff raff" shopping for food in a luxury building, there will be another supermarket a couple lots down the block, plus a Walgreens. Good all around for the neighborhood.

the would be very good news! any idea of which supermarket is opening? (of course we are not talking about whole foods:))

So lets pay $200 per sqft more for Toren because it's going to have a supermarket on the first floor and a Yoga classes? No way.

When are these guys going to chop the prices on the other half of the building?

It should be $200 less per square foot to live next to the projects.

It's almost April. Anyone who purchased in 2008 should have closed by now. (FYI April 1,2010 was the deadline then).

So why are there only like 24 closings from what was around 80 signed contracts in 2008 ?

My guess is the building is failing to get people to close.

Has anyone seen a review of the grand opening party? It's crazy how small this building really is inside. You go from one penthouse room to the next... you can walk through all 4 pent houses in about 4 minutes.

BTW, why does a 4ft deep pool need a life guard?

Stay away!! Prices will come down to earth; 500 sq foot is where they belong. BFC partners are full of themselves. They don't have gold toilets and sinks. Patience.

I ran into this article today- i was unaware of these housing developments being so close to the toren (in spite of someone pointing it out above). i have visited and have thought about putting an offer on a unit at toren (sounds like i should wait too!). that being said, does anyone know the area and can eleborate on any safety issues to be aware and cognizant of in this neck of the woods? here is the article, second shooting in one week:

http://fort-greene.thelocal.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/the-day-second-fatal-shooting-this-month/

Toren is a nice building, but for me, it is on the wrong side of the major road Flatbush Ave. It is a pain to cross. I think it's around 9 or 10 lanes wide where Toren is. That's really my only major compliant about the place.

I have seen the inside of Toren and while there are some nice amenities there are quite a few things wrong with the building. Many of the apartments have "bizarre" bedroom/home office shapes. We looked at a couple of the penthouses and seriously could not fit a normal bed in several of the bedrooms due to the building's odd shape. Anyway I agree with joe11, the prices will come down and at $500 per sq foot that will be the time to buy.

If you're waiting for prices to drop to $500 sqft..don't hold your breath. The market's picking up again and people are moving to the area. Yes, people are moving in and closing - see my post above on the incorrect StreetEasy numbers. The building's active and the residents and staff take great pride in it.

As for saftey concerns - those shootings took place on the compounds of the projects, and unless ya'll were planning on taking a walk there just to visit...it's close, yes, but it's NYC and you have to be aware and cognizant the same way you would be anywhere else in the city.

Sundae,
I disagree on their pricing. I agree on the neighborhood and market. The environment around Toren has nothing to do with why the prices will come down. The market may pick up but Toren faces design flaws.

Flaws
1) Too many apartments were cut out off 5000 sqft. (7 to 8 per floor)
2) Some how, the useful space of each these apartments is far below the floorplan numbers.
3) The bedrooms are basically only big enough to have an IKEA full size bed.
4) The amenities are too small to handle 500 people ( 240 apartments with 2 to 3 people per apartment lets say )

I understand these are opinions, but let's pick a floorplan out of the blue. The 04/05 floorplans, which there are 60 of (25% of the building). Why is it that only 6 of these have closed in 4 months? There's something wrong there. It could have something to do with the floorplan having only 420 sqft of useful space while the floor plan says 738... uh oh! Not too mention the building couldn't even stick furniture themselves into one of these during their Grand Opening... LOL...

I don't want to be one sided... so here goes

Pros)
1) Nice swimming pool.
2) Great outside! We love the outside. The lobby is the opposite story. Small and too plain. They made it all white to make it seem bigger but... failed.
3) The kitchens are nice.
4) The views are sharp.
5) Great marketing ads!

The most likely reason Toren will have to cut prices is because its not selling as fast as its competition. At the rate Toren is going, they'll be selling for 4-5 more years. They were selling like HOT cakes when they came to market because they undercut their competition by a significant amount. ORO and FORTE back then were much more expensive. Now ORO and OBBP and others have come down to Toren's prices and unfortunatele, their bedrooms are like 15' by 10' with walk in closets. So the product that Toren has is now asking a premium price for inferior apartment layouts.

Then there are the rentals near by... 1500 of them lets say... you can go get a 600 sqft 1 BR at Avalon or the Brooklyner for $2000 per month with more useful sqftage, or pay a huge down payment at Toren and pay somwhere around $3000 per month... ouch...

Either way, nothing I say matters really, the numbers matter. Toren's numbers are small inside and high outside. That's a big problem.

True square footage small.
Month price high.

Toren's real price price per square foot is far higher than $700 per sqft in that case.

Oh and about the projects across the street... just don't walk down Myrtle at night, go the other way to Metrotech, either way, yes the location has a crime risk associated with it, more than other places in NYC... it's proximity to the projects causes it to be far scarier than Montague St 8 minutes away walking.

great conversation here guys.

thanks for addressing the safety issues. it does feel a little desolate at night on myrtle and i agree that one should avoid walking on myrtle at night towards the park; the other way across flatbush or down flatbush is a better bet. i do like the building's very close proximity to the subways though, being 2 blocks from the express B/Q trains is very very appealing; and you are a skip away from the BQE which is great for those who have cars (who can actually park inside toren, they will have a monthly rate, sounds like it's an outsourced garage run by a parking company).

i also thought the layouts were rather short of good as far as useful space goes. some of the "good" layouts have a super long hallway that is not useful. bedrooms are small. living room is fair in size though, and the kitchen is indeed super high quality, as are the finishes throughout the apartments, 100-times superior to the finishes at the forte (the forte did however have better layouts/useful sq.ft., but maintenance fees were just as high).

on the prices coming down issue- i'd think they'll come down at toren. demand is high and at some point they WILL sell like hot cakes- look at forte! they sold out in less than a month once prices were cut i believe. there are a LOT of buyers out there (me included) just waiting for the "right" price.

"Toren is a nice building, but for me, it is on the wrong side of the major road Flatbush Ave. It is a pain to cross. I think it's around 9 or 10 lanes wide where Toren is. That's really my only major compliant about the place."

Been saying this for a while... its also on the side with all the projects. That building is fairly "trapped".

Its only 7 lanes ... I don't agree with these location issues. The projects are not a plus across the street but I wouldn't call them a major for all people. People with children will not like it, but other than that...

I'm a young adult white male... I don't want to walk down Myrtle at night, but if I lived at 150 Myrtle Ave... I wouldn't have to.

35 Closings, 120 Contracts Signed = 70.8% Missing... So yes as of exactly 4 months after the first closing, it looks like > 70%, or 85 out of 120, are walking away.

I visited Toren this past weekend, and fell a little bit in love. Despite the somewhat odd layout of some of the apartments -- agree with the posting above that some of the 2 bedrooms will not fit a full bed in the door. I would also add that those same bedrooms have a "ledge like" quality to them with the overpowering windows and small space. Nonetheless, the finishes are beautiful, and the amentieis are nothing short of rock star. All that said, I am concerned about the safety.

Yes, it's on the wrong side of Flatbush right next to the projects. And I do mean right next to them. And while the area (Downtown Brooklyn) will gentrify those projects are not likely to be removed any time soon. But, it's not like areas near projects are undesirable -- the East Village in Manhattan is testimony to that. But stats like this map: http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homicides/map are things that i do consider as a woman who in the near future who is likely to have children with my husband.

The other development I'm considering is very near the Toren, in fact just a few blocks. Which begs the question "do those blocks really matter?" and just about everyone I spoke seems to think they do. I don't want to feel trapped in my building (due to safety concerns) or frantically be running those 4 blocks with my stroller. So while I will continue to look longingly at the Toren I think I'm turning it down, for a condo with more sqft but less light, higher monthly charges (when the taxes finally kick in), worse ammenities, worse finishes and is slightly higher in price. Sad.

It depends on what blocks you are looking at. If it's Oro, then no. Forte...well, it's definitely more convenient for BAM and subways. I have female friends who live past the "bad" side of Myrtle and don't have problems, and I've taken the train home at 3a and felt pretty safe walking home at night down Flatbush or through Metrotech going to Toren. You have to be on your guard because it is NYC and crime does happen - you can't avoid it (as much as people like to pretend it doesn't happen in the "gentrified" parts of the city. Please.)...but I felt more nervous living in Chelsea and Harlem. I was harassed every single day and certainly heard more gun shots than I do now (which is zero for those curious). I hope I didn't jinx myself.

i couldn't live in toren with all those projects next door. i don't have personal experience w/ it but just the other day someone i know was walking down the block past an unnamed nycha project and a poor black (or maybe latino) burst out of the bushes picked up up the baby out of the stroller and ate it.

604->$480k
1005->458k

I called a price cut in April and I was right. Sweeeet.

> Yes, it's on the wrong side of Flatbush right next to the projects. And I do mean right next to them

Bingo.... AND flatbush is such a big street that you're really locked in with them.

Oh,a nd there were just MAJOR price cuts...

For your Information!

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/returning-deposits-to-get-deals-done

Thanks, Faye. The Downtown Brooklyn new developments are my yardsticks; when they capitulate to the market, it will be time to start looking again.

hey friend_or_foe i guess we know by ur comments that ur part of the so called master race on this planet so y dont u tone your race issues down just a little bit and keep it to the specific topic at hand.

I have read the many concerns of visitors who have actually visited the Toren, I think it is safe to say the "projects" in NYC is everywhere, a perfect example of a nice building is "The Heywood" http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/the-heywood condos in Chelsea, gorgeous loft condos, on 9th avenue between 25th and 26th streets, price tags are at 1.3M at minimum and above. I have visited this building and YES it is gorgeous but as I walked around, right behind the building from 9th to 10th avenues and from 25th to 27th streets there is a "SEA" of "projects". Yet all of these condos in this building "despite" the collapse of the economy of 2008 have their units selling above 1M.. imagine you with a price tag of 1M and buying right next door to "projects" ... yet they SOLD and continue selling.

You may say well that is Chelsea what do you know... Then again the curious consumer that I am, I do my research and in 2009 I visited "378 Baltic Street, Brooklyn" in Boerum Hill, a 36 unit condo building, the cross street is "Smith Street" and close to F/G subways only one block away on Warren Stret entrance. I visited this development in the spring and "YES" right on the corner of Baltic and Hoyt Streets there are "Projects" again.... yet I am not passing the projects to get to my home, I am walking from the subway directly to the building and not passing the projects... I visited in the daytime and at night time after work and felt it was safe enough. I missed out on the unit I wanted becuase of my doubt, the unit I wanted was within my price range, by the time I decided to move forward the unit I wanted was "gone" ... the inventory is shrinking and I noticed I was soon priced out of the neighborhood. I wined and complained and took a non proactive approach and later I found out within the course of one year "378 Baltic Street" completely "sold out" .. despite my fear and insecurities.

My best advice, NYC is full of projects, eastside, westside, outter borough, etc... do your homework, find out the police precinct designated to the area, and go to the precinct and request a copy of the "crims statistics" in the area, how many burglaries, rapes, robberies, etc. Talk with officers and people who are there on a daily basis. This is "PUBLIC INFORMATION" and you can even get this online. Inform yourself and if it is that important to you then visit the building at night, when you get off work see how it feels...

If you play close attention the "ORO" building is across from TOREN, right across the street from ORO is the police station, "BROOKLYN 84TH POLICE PRECINCT" right on GOLD street. On this street there is a row of police cars parked "daily". The smart consumer would visit this precinct and say, I am new in the neighborhood and thinking of purchasing in the TOREN, I am concerned by the "projects" and complaints, please provide me with information and crime statistics, also is there a neighborhoood watch and other crime prevention programs in the community. EVERY city has it's projects.

Right next to the ORO is AVALON FORT GREENE RENTALS.. I do a search and one bedrooms are at 2500/mo in price range .. plus/minus a few dollars.. they ask the client make 40x's the rent ... income would be 100K annually to live here, and they are renting, despite the projects. Picture 100K a year, close to Metrotech, close to Manhattan, Montague Street, Smith and Court Streets, A/C/F subways and R/Q on Dekalb and police station right on the corner guarding ....

You are also forgetting the METRO-TECH BID http://www.metrotechbid.org/index.php/about-us/who-we-are
a non-profit community development organization, their mission is to further the revitalization of Downtown Brooklyn through a variety of services and programs. Initiatives include a robust public safety program, sanitation services, economic development, and marketing and promotional services throughout a 25-square block district to businesses, universities, residences and government agencies.

Check out: www dbpartnership org / www metrotechbid org / www fultonstreet org

The TOREN has a 25 year tax abatement, a GREEN-LEED certified building with it's own generators, the neighboring buildings ORO have 15 years.. I would rather listen to opinions but at the same time "EDUCATE" myself with the area, it's residents, the local precincts, it's police officers, store vendors and get a more straightforward answer. Don't let fear and someone's opinion stop you from an opportunity, don't miss an opportunity by being scared, "knowledge is power".

check out www.dbpartnership.org and www.fultonstreet.org and get informed.... the area will change for the positive

I decided to be even more proactive, I signed up for the downtown brooklyn partnerships newsletter and I am part of their eblasts and weekly I am informed on this area and you can too, email lgutierrez@dbpartnership.org and ask to receive his "DBP PRESS DIGEST" ... it is free and answers alot of questions ... what's the worse that could happen you will learn something and have concrete information.

Luis Gutierrez
Project Manager, Cultural Programming & Services
Downtown Brooklyn Partnership
15 MetroTech Center, 19th Floor
Brooklyn, New York 11201
Ph: 718.403.1614 Fx: 718.403.1650

www.metrotechbid.org

http://www.shopdowntownbrooklyn.com/about/resources/

The projects in downtown Brooklyn dominate the neighborhood in a way that projects in Chelsea don't, although there's a reason why Chelsea real estate sells at a discount compared to safer Manhattan neighborhoods.

You don't know what you're talking about. Chelsea is on of the best neighborhoods around. Ding dong.

bob d--you are a dope about real estate as well as the rest!!

Chelsea at a discount!! quality chelsea psf can be as high as park, 5th cpw wea rsd

go back to your love for paladino--more entertaining, in spite of your obliviousness re medicaid

I would rather listen to opinions but at the same time "EDUCATE" myself with the area, it's residents, the local precincts, it's police officers, store vendors and get a more straightforward answer.

I have lived in the Toren for 3 months. I had my reservations before moving here and would still love a grocery store (urban organic and Trader Joe's is fine for the mean time), but I truly have never felt unsafe. There is a police presence here - especially around the DeKalb subway, but even without it, most of the neighborhood residents have been friendly or kept to themselves. Not to mention that there are always people on Flatbush and Myrtle. Also, of course the security in MetroTech is there all the time. This is not true in other areas around Brooklyn, but the projects here really have not had a bearing on my feelings of safety. Poverty does not always equal crime, and I think purely discriminating against an entire neighborhood bc there are buildings where poor people live is wrong on many levels.

a friend of mine is living there with the entrance of Manhattan Bridge view from their living room. It;s superb. They are going to have a shopping center build soon across the street. It's a nice building the only think I think it's weird, it's how the gym is facing to the pool. It's already weird when I swim alone with a lifeguard, but there, you'll have the gym peeps watching you from above!