How big is the market for really expensive 1 bedrooms

I remember looking at a one bedroom a few years ago at 300 East 77th Street at a listing price over $1M and I couldn't believe that a one bedroom could be so expensive. BTW, alot of amenities in this building. Your listing is interesting in that it honestly states a gut reno is needed. But I do think there's somewhat of a market for a single person who wants a roomy one bedroom.

How many square feet is this apartment?

I'm going to answer my own question. Looking at other listings and sales in this building, I'm guessing 800-900 square feet.

Yeah I think about 850 feet

Keep in mind these are not the new development heavy ammenity buildings, these are apartments around for a long time. I'm also doing a comparison to the newer ones and I understand those are the apartments that young Wall Street guys want as a batchelor pad and then think they can flip (or thought they could flip) in a few years when they get married.

17F is 850 feet and was on the market for 32 days at $1.7 million. http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/467601-condo-299-west-12th-street-west-village-new-york That was fully renovated etc. But how many people really can or really want to buy that?

OMG I hate those animal rescue ASPCA commercials withat those pouty dog and cat faces and Sarah McLaughlin singing and it goes on for like a full minute or seems longer. I'm watching Sunday morning shows and surfing apartments.

Some buildings are worth more than others, and it makes sense if you want that building.

I haven't been inside but definitely agree that it was a good original developer and builder and architect, plus the location can't be beat along with the view. My quetion is more about how many in the market could be contemplating this?
You know you could have the nicest house on the block or in the neighborhood but you are going to have constraint on value based on your neibhros.

neighbors!

I've been looking at 2 bedrooms for many months and there's a huge range of prices from less than $1M to well over $2M and I'm sure even higher than that. I can see the appeal of buying a one bedroom in a very good building and then renovating it. The market for NYC real estate seems to be quite diverse, including international buyers. Between purchasing a well constructed one bedroom and a so-so two bedroom, I can see people picking the one bedroom. You're right that this type of apartment most likely wouldn't appeal to a young guy who's looking to flip the apartment in a few years, but for an older buyer or someone who likes prewars, it should have some appeal if they can afford it. I might go look at it to see what it's all about.

I guess what I'm saying is sure there is always good room for a great apartment at any price point but a one bedroom still has a limited universe and if you look at that universe how many people are in the over $1 million range for it, let alone over $1.5 million. A few yes but how many. So yes pay more for great building and location and view and old war layout, but how many people is this market? Maybe the premium on view and such really gets knocked seriously down if we are in a less growth real estate market.

It depends on why you're purchasing the apartment. For me, this will be my home for many years since I'm not planning on leaving NYC in 20 years for a retirement elsewhere. So in my case, it would make sense if it were the right apartment. So much depends on your age, where you are in your financial life and if you plan on having a family and then perhaps leaving for the suburbs. I think there is a market for one bedrooms over $1M and I would include myself in this market although I do prefer a two bedroom prewar apartment.

Can I ask a bit of background information on you? And even if not, how big is the market similar to you do you think?

I know you are anti-coops lobster, but there have been a couple of duplex 2br prewars at 1W67 - 1 closed for 1.6m recently.

I'm not a realtor so you'd probably want to talk to front porch, 30 years or fluter or another RE broker on this site. I'm sure that they have several clients who would buy this type of apartment. I've already disclosed way too much personal information on this site, much more than the most SE posters so I'll defer to the brokers on this one.

ok cool

i'm hoping there is a huge market as i have an expensive one bed!!! all kidding aside i think while this is clearly a fabulous apartment it is pricey,,, then add in gut reno so you are at about 1.5mill, does that mean when the market turns it's a 2mill apt??
like lobster, i am not a broker but it seems like the market would be limited..ie, for that price you can get a really nice apartment and a beach/county place. also with expensive one beds i have always felt an alcove is a plus for obvious reasons.

This is a type of client I specialize in: Ideal buyer for this is a Hollywood client who wants to be bicoastal, loves the feel of a NY prewar, believes the West Village is the best of New York, has no kids so does not need a two-bedroom, but wants a condo so that he/she can run back to the LA house and rent out the NY place in case of a business downturn.

Remember that because of the way the mortgage market is, this buyer is probably putting half a million down.

Another possibility is an empty nester couple from the suburbs, though that's less likely because of the lack of a second bedroom.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Gotcha thanks, makes total sense. And then the follow up is how big is that group of potential buyers, and too what is going through their head if the one in question is the first one I posted where a total renovation has to happen.

Seems to be big enough to keep prices in some buildings relatively higher than in others. Not a huge cohort, but they're certainly out there. They're not thinking, "oh, for the same money I could have twice the space in some other building." What they want costs $x when they want it, and so be it. By the same token, plowing even more money into a renovation is no big deal either. I'd be like that if I had the money to back it up.

Remember that my postulated buyer has somewhere else to live, so the time it takes to renovate a space is not a problem -- spending the money is an issue, because celebs are always afraid that they'll never work again, but the calculation here is that at $1.5 or ($1.7) mm all in this is more "suitable" for the buyers' lifestyle than a larger two-bedroom place that's a co-op which couldn't be rented out for long periods.

The other thing to remember about this mentality is that unlike those of us with lower, steadier incomes -- where making our money illiquid is unsafe, even dangerous -- this buyer is buying a piece of the rock. Money that turns into a condo can't be embezzled or snorted. The second property could be liquidated in times of trouble -- so it feels more like buying a bond to them.

ali r.

Thanks for the insite. I guess a good broker should know what types of buyers fit a place and then how to find them. So frontporch how many people fit this category? I definitely see it but how many Hollywood types are there or are in need of this? That's kind of the real heart of my question because almost anything niche can find some people of interest but how many are in this category with these dollars? And because you have to eliminate the Hollywood types who actually want new developments vs old war and all of the sales effort that goes around the new developments that also cuts down for this building or even the other similar building just across the way at 302 12th Street.

Hey, also, what is with the elevator operator in some of these buildings? I'm sure they are hold overs, but why can't they eliminate this? Do people actually like it? It seems way too intrusive, right?

Ali, that's really interesting. Purely out of curiosity, do you have a lot of these clients? You say you specialize in this type of buyer, which must be fascinating although I wager you can't share any stories here!

I grew up across the street and a world away from 299 West 12th. It was always a "rareified air" building (I certainly didn't know anyone who lived there)and probably the most prestigous apartment house in the West Village (excluding Superior Ink, Richard Meier towers and other 21st century inventions). Now that the WV has apparently achieved the status of a 5th Ave, Park Ave or CPW I'm not surprised that the at this pricing at 299 West 12th. Granted it was pre-crash, but I remember seeing many "damn near $1MM" 1brs in medicore buildings in less prestigous.

While Ali obviously knows the downtown upscale re market better than me, (or 99.99% of the universe) I would imagine that the market for this apartment would also include mature, dual income, childfree couples (single or dual sex) who would sacrifice a second bedroom for "best of the best" location (you are also very close to express service on both the 7th and 8th Avenue subways) and a charming view of Abingdon Square Park.

Or look at http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/480975-condo-59-west-12th-street-greenwich-village-new-york. Standard Bing & Bing one-bedroom, big, great closets, WBFP, but not *that* fabulous, went for nearly $1M in 2005, not even peak bubble. The Bing & Bings in the E 70s have very much the same qualities but don't seem to have the cachet they do in the Village.

lizyank, I agree that an older couple is a likely buyer for this unit as well -- remember that agents can't market by lifestyle, but those would definitely be target buyers in my head.

as to the question "how many people fit in this category"? I can't answer that. I guess I would say "enough". New devs love it when celebs buy, because it gives them a marketing argument, and you can see from their silence that these new buildings don't seem to be a big draw for LA clients (what was the last big shout -- that Lindsay Lohan bought at the Atelier a couple of years ago?) I can tell you when the prices of these apartments dip, there is tremendous interest -- the broker at 25 Christopher, another Bing & Bing condo, told me they had a five-way bidding war on a unit.

EV, as to stories -- well, actors are as varied as other rich people. For a broad generalization, they are politer about things like showing up on time and returning emails than, say, Wall Street types, I think because they have been trained better by their industry.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali, that's interesting. Any stories you can share without upsetting clients, again purely out of selfish curiosity?

Thanks for the insightful discussion. lizyank when you say a world away, did you still benefit from the great neighborhood and good location or was it not as nice then?

Bluegreen, you are relatively new to this board and I've already been chided for harping on what I, and probably only I, consider to be the "decline and fall of the west village". The neighborhood I grew up in was blue collar, very safe (or as safe as anywhere in NYC in the 1970s) but without the affluence, and in my opinion, pretention, that defines the wv today. PS 41 was an excellent school then as it is now. The Beatrice Inn was a red sauce Italian restaurant for old ladies and the drinking places were bars not boites. To answer your question...I think I benefited from a great neighborhood but I think its was much nicer then than it is now, even if I'm the only one who feels like this.

The buyer is someone that grossly underestimates the cost of a good renovation and overestimates how high such a unit will appraise.

I am guessing that with good renovations and furniture, the all-in for a unit like this is $1.8 and the appraisal would be $1.1-$1.2. Assuming 90% LTV loan, that still means $700k in cash.

If the math looks like that and the buyer still has the means, why not bite the bullet, do a board package, and go coop?

As well, I believe 299 is mediocre relative to other west and central village pre-wars. "Bing" and "Roth" buzzwords, fireplaces, and dropped living rooms don't make up for small windows, tiny blah common spaces, and being comprised largely of small units. Small units + condo + a fairly recent genetrification = unappealing socioeconomic aspects. Rich people don't like poor neighbors. Let's face it, if you're buying this as a pied-a-terre or starter home as some other comments suggest, you are likely much wealthier than the neighbors that have been there for 7+ years. Beyond the social, the economic reality of trying to sell could be pretty grim -- most neighbors are at 1/2 or less the basis. They can undercut you and still make a profit.

When I read comments such as yours nycfund, I always wonder where is the consideration for long term finances in the analysis. If someone can afford to buy this one bedroom apartment with a substantial downpayment and has the money to renovate over a few years period, what is economically wrong in the long term about buying this apartment? Assuming that you plan of living here for many years as either a primary or second home. The monthly charges seem to total about $1500 which isn't an extravagant amount. I'm really curious about where long term finances play in the buyer's consideration of buying an apartment like this, assuming that you will hold the apartment for 20 years or longer and that the monthly costs will be clearly affordable for you in your retirement years. RE2009 assessed the sale price and gut reno costs at about $1.5M which seems right to me. But as a long term investment, assuming that you can afford the apartment and the renovation costs, is it economically a poor decision because you can never get back the money that you put into the apartment?

lizyank thanks for the extra details and nycfund thanks for the point of view especilly on the building demographics or whatever it is called. I'm not rich or hang with the rich but I see the comment about rich people dont like poor neighbors making sense and the related issue of small units.

So are you and liz in agreement that this is a fairly recent gentrification? Since about when?

I disagree though on the layouts and such aside from that they are 1 beds because I actually like traditional windows vs having big glass. I guess that is taste. Anyway thanks for the very interesting perspectives.

"Fairly recent gentrification"? I've been going by 299 W 12 and 302 W 12 since the late 1970s. The neighborhood may have been more economically-diverse back then, but it certainly wasn't a "bad" area.

Every co-op or condo that isn't new construction has a mix of owners who bought at different times and have different bases. It'd be tough to draw socioeconomic conclusions from that or even tell who's who.

It'd be interesting to compare prices at those two, plus 45 Christopher and 59 W 12 St., since they all went condo back in the mid-1980s. I suspect they're all pretty much on a par. For whatever reasons, they've all been high up in the Village pecking order for a very long time.

Bluegreen its hard to say when the "gentrificaiton" happened because its a day to day thing when you live there. As NWT said, it was never a "bad" area as in high major crime (lots of rowdy teenage kids, drugs, fights that kind of stuff...we had fun back in the day but it was pretty much harmless). When I was a kid, the area was predominantly temements and buildings like 299, 302 etc stood pretty much alone. Then came the the early post war buldings (Cezanne, John Adams,33 Greenwich Avenue etc) that were built in the early-mid 1960s. These were buildings we didn't know anyone in. I'd guess the genttrification truly started with that round of construction. Someonne on this board (I think it was Kyle) mentioned the impact of AIDs. In the early 70s (my HS years), the West Village came to take on a decidely gay flavor. I suspect (as a drug, music and boy crazed teenager my interest in distribution of econonic resources within the emerging gay community was minimal, to my eternal shame however I'm sure I utterred more than once "damn fa***ts are taking over the neighorhood") that this was a mixture of every strata from thriving to surviving. Unfortunately, this left the WV in the eye of the horrific storm which began to enjgulf the gay community at the end of the 1970s and devestated it in the years following. As was stated, there were many empty apartments (and storefronts...I remember how upset my mother was as one after another of the businesses she patronized closed, only to learn soon after that the owner had passed away) and rather than maintain rents in line with blue heritage of the community (so that its sons and daughters could afford to live there), most landlords chose to go with upgrades that alllowed for much higher rents and new residents....yuppies. By the time most of the larger buildings in the neighborhood went coop, these "new people" constituted are large enough percent of to allow plans to be declared effective. In my parents building (60 units) none of the "old timers" bought. (A few second generation kids, like me, bought a little later). Between call it 1990 and 2005, hypergenetrificaiton of the WV continued apace, all the new buildings west of Hudson; the emergence of the Mepa themepark and those who were part of the initial migration in the 1980s are mostly now towards the bottom of the neighborhood socio-economic ladder (publishing types may have replaced longshoremen but they are now being supplanted by Wall Street and celebreties).

By the way, when I was a kid, and until he died, my father used to direct cab drivers to "west of 7th avenue" because it was very unusual for a cab to go to know where "Hudson Street" was. Then again my father used to worry I'd never get a cab home (in the late 1980s-early 1990s)on Jewish holidays.

At the end of day, the question is about how many $ per sq ft you are willing to pay. There are people willing to pay $1500-$2000 per sq ft for a high-end two bed room. Why not the same $/sq ft for a 1 bedroom.

Thanks again liz.

By the way, comparisons to Cezanne, John Adams are so uninteresting to me the post-wars. I think the Cezanne is next to 2 Horatio if I'm not confusing, and you can just see the lower apartment heights and to me that is so unattractive.

By the way speaking of 2 Horatio what is with the two buildings in one?

300 my guess is just then about a supply and demand of the # of bedrooms appropriate for the demographics. So if there aren't the demographics of people wanting the expensive 1 bedrooms, as frontporch suggested, those will go down in value relative to more family size apartments.

There is a big demand for 1br in New York due to many single people and out of towners looking for pied a terre. Also there are ok 2br available for $1000/sq ft. Why does some one pay $1500-2000 per sq ft? At the end of the day, real estate is price per sq ft as 2 adjacent 1 bed rooms can be converted to 2 bed rooms with some expense and luck

Sorry to be selfish, I wanted to push this back up in case others had an opinion.

ill sell you a 650sqft 1 BR condo for 650.

Re: Bing & Bing condos in the Village, one-bedroom/one-bath PHB at 45 Christopher just sold. No listing for it that I can find, but here's the sales history.

12/15/09 $1,995,000
01/13/87 ....$325,000
12/24/86 ....$150,500

(Quick flip by tenant upon conversion.) It's 680 ft² plus 288 ft² of terrace. The 680 is measured to halfway through exterior walls, rather than current standard of outside face, so add 50-100 ft² to compare with modern condos.

I like this site, very useful. Thanks NWT for that background at 45 Christopher.

I looked at Manhattan House online, big one bedrooms but REALLY! expensive. Who is the buyer for 1 beds over 1MM over in the UES? Must be different than on West 12th.
like this http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/392870-condo-200-east-66th-street-lenox-hill-new-york

Taxes and charges are pretty high too here. Anyone know why if it is a condo?

I love the different definitions of "really expensive". To me, in NYC, $1.325mm doesn't qualify as overly expensive (depending on what you get, of course).

See:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/193161-coop-240-centre-street-little-italy-new-york
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/319038-coop-1-west-72nd-street-upper-west-side-new-york

And a whole lot more...

NWT, what about this one:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/52850-coop-315-west-86th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

What did it go for?

Listed as PHB, but sale recorded as 17B. $1,270,000.

Traditionally, one bedrooms go up the most in bull markets, and fall the most in bear markets.

Because they're not family apartments, and because studios are starter apartments and get the p-a-t crowd. One bedrooms tradtionally get the bachelors (and now the single girls) when times are good.

somewhereelse, I don't know that that rule is always consistent. I feel like in the dip of the late 80s/early 90s, studios got kicked in the head compared to one-bedrooms, and brokers back then said that studios rise and fall the most because a couple can't live in them.

I feel like now studios are doing well vs. one-bedrooms because of the support of the first-time homebuyer tax credit.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Ali, true: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/21/realestate/banks-are-refusing-loans-for-studios.html

"somewhereelse, I don't know that that rule is always consistent. I feel like in the dip of the late 80s/early 90s, studios got kicked in the head compared to one-bedrooms"

Actually, thats where the stat came from.... one beds got destroyed in the late 80s relative to other apartment sizes. I learne about that trend specifically after that crash.

How about this 1 bed!
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/484854-condo-101-warren-street-tribeca-new-york

Another one: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/438792-coop-20-east-74th-street-upper-east-side-new-york

07/21/2009 Listed by Stribling at $1,095,000.
11/18/2009 Listing entered contract.
01/06/2010 Sale recorded for $999,000.

Expensive one bedrooms have limited appeal. Too expensive and they face competition from two bedrooms. For many the one bedroom is more of a starter unit as well.

Here is one in Tribeca.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/481909-condo-92-laight-street-tribeca-new-york
And the ask is a good deal above what they sold for 2005.

here's the west 12th street neighbor, 302.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/489333-condo-302-west-12th-street-west-village-new-york

That is not even a like the others 800 square feet, tiny by comparison for $1.8, nice catch.

This market was big...now its smaller. I know a guy...sorta 2002 college grad went to Goldman got into commodities....so by 27 he could afford a $1.4mm one bed condo and wanted it...so he bought it. You need to be young enough to actually see yourself in a one bed...maybe you tack on a girlfriend or wife...but not kids....for 7-8 years.

I don't know how the interiors compare but I never thought 302 was as nice as 299 (which btw is to the west of 302 go figure) probably because 299 looks directly over Abingdon Square and 302 looks across 8th Avenue. And $1.8MM for 800 sq ft with no amenities save a doorman (no balcony, not even a w/d in unit)...that's a bit much.