Chicago and NYC were 2 of the 3 largest price decline cities in the most recent Case Shiller report...

price declines?

Finance?

pizza?
hot dogs?

Rufus.

one is actually the alias of the other?

I never understood Chicago's relationship to pizza. Isn't it on a lake?

Third cousin, twice removed.
Pizza is their name for a casserole -- it's not actual pizza.

I think the answer is they have too much in common for NYC residential to still be priced 3-4x Chicago.

for starters...both have RE markets that were built around a core of finance jobs which has been shattered...granted chicago's much more so than NYC's...

for starters...both have RE markets that were built around a core of finance jobs which has been shattered...granted chicago's much more so than NYC's...

for starters...both have RE markets that were built around a core of finance jobs which has been shattered...granted chicago's much more so than NYC's...

Here is the most recent report. Says -7.1% YOY for NY which would be around the average. Where do you get top 3?

http://www.standardandpoors.com/indices/sp-case-shiller-home-price-indices/en/us/?indexId=spusa-cashpidff--p-us----

Do we have to debate the details of the NYC metro decline when it was always the bulls/apologists/dreamers who never wanted to accept the data as relevant to Manhattan and LI City.

Chicago's been much harder hit and it started before Lehman.
In '07 I remember some nice new construction high rises having difficulties available at 350-400 psft.
Some really good and abundant restaurants, variety of venues (but substancially less than NYC though all other cities as well)
Even more a union town than NYC, and a lot more corruption believe it or not.
Unbearably cold though, november thru march is a ghost town.
Unparalleled chopped salads, but godawful pizza.
And since Michael Jordan's retirement, an absolutely miserable place to be a home team sports fan.

Chicago's waterfront is unbelievably impressive. Lake shore drive is full of modern luxury highrise apartments. And once it wins the 2016 olympics bid, there will be even more new buildings.

But what about NYC's waterfront? To say the least, it's downright pathetic. There are massive housing projects in lower east side, next to the east river. and the rest of the waterfront isn't as nearly as nice as Chicago's.

Again, Chicago has proven itself to be a superior city through innovative urban planning and architecture. NYC has a lot to learn from Chicago.

juiceman..look in the nov/ oct column. thanks for the link though.

the cbot / cme dirves chigago RE. i was talkin to treasury trader yesterday and he told the floors have dropped more than 60% employment and those jobs are gone permanently. only a tine percentage has moved "up stairs". and they also have a msssive condo oversupply of inventory. just like fidi and the ues. again I make my statement that the RE market is gonna get crushed.

Chances are homes may just be places to live for 15 years. The American Dream was a big pump and dump.

"Do we have to debate the details of the NYC metro decline"

Only when people make up numbers, mislead conclusions, and fabricate truths but other than that no.

"juiceman..look in the nov/ oct column."

So your conclusion drawn from the nov / oct delta is what? Think hard before you answer (or just look at the sept / oct column for a hint).

Alanhart, go back to Chitroit!

Although Chicago does have better-looking women. NYC girls are ugly and annoying. Chicago also has better street fairs.

Juice, in the last couple of months, we've had confirmations that values are down 25%-30% from industry players...as well as confirmation that rents are back to 2000 levels.

I am sure sure about this Chicago debate. Don't the markets tell you which more people on average find more appealing?

The waterfront is valuable and should be utilized effectively. I hate how ugly the east river waterfront is, with views of housing projects and other ugly eyesores. Chicago has successfully developed its long waterfront, so now it's full of luxury condos, navy pier, etc.

It would be nice to see NYC follow Chicago's leadership in this area. Don't hold your breath though.

alanhart

Agree with a lot of what you say, though the waterfronts are apples and oranges. I think following Hong Kong's lead is more likekind and comparable.

kspeak
Agreed, especially if you like blondes. Black women are much prettier there as well.
But Chitroit? Nah, Chicago and Detroit do not belong in the same sentence, let alone the same word.

NYC is disgusting. Garbage piles up in front of so called luxury condos, meanwhile Chicago continues to dominate architecture and new skyscrapers.

Chicago has put up more skyscrapers than NYC and has overtaken NYC.

New Yorkers feels like they are the world's most enlightened citizens who enjoy paying $5000 a month for a 3 bedroom in Murray Hill.

What a joke. And NY's public transportation system is mediocre at best compared to Chicago.

Posted this on another Chicago thread;

truthskr10
about 3 months ago
ignore this person
THe Chicago Tribune building is one of my favorites. I do love the bi level streets as well,something New York sorely needs. And the chop salads in most of their restaurants are great.

But it is so unbelievably cold, the cops are most certainly the mafia,and the unions run everything else. That thing they do to the water on St Paddy's Day is quite creepy too."

However, the vibe from the volume of people that live here is unparalleled in any city in this country. Chicago, LA, Miami, you may get it in bits and pieces over 5 ten blocks in an area but that's it.
Only other place that compare to NYC that you get that same vibe that I've been to are Paris, London, Hong Kong, and Rio.

juiceman..ur scaring me now. for NY..sept/ oct was -.2..then oct/nov is -1...a full 80 bps worse. you have a very bad case of black knight syndrome

Right its always funny when cities like Chicago or Boston are compared to New York...compare New York to global cities...however, for some of the same reasons, it seems like New York pales when it moves up to that bracket.

When I look at the plethora of new developments that have sprung up in the city in the last few years, I am thoroughly embarrassed. The condos are mostly bland, ugly, and dull. Instead of majestic works of architecture, most of these condos are low and mid-rise boxes, conversions, and even the highrises are lacking in aesthetics.

NYC is about a decade behind cities like Hong Kong and Chicago when it comes to innovation and originality. Those cities are building superior condos. Just compare Chicago's elysian hotel condos, aqua, park hyatt, or lincoln park 2520, to NYC's new condos. It's not even close. Chicago just blows NYC away.

Seems like everyone forgets why all the projects are clustered around the East River. I do not think anyone wanted to build and/or live in luxury high rises on the East River waterfront when it was an inaccessible wall of piers with 24/7 activity.

alanhart
The skyline is pretty but there is also more space between the buildings to admire or put attention to the facades.
Cost of land and air is a factor, at least 3x as much in NY vs Chicago. Squeezing out every drop of livable square feet makes the outside of the building suffer.

Of course not every Chicago building is perfect, that building by wacker drive on the opposite side of the water with the open 8 or 10 stories of parking is still crooked. The one that was in the movie where the car goes over the edge (Sharky's Machine maybe?). I think the architect commited suicide over that.

ah, rufus isn't a good look for you. kind of like pastel polka dots.

All real estate is local, very very local. Although it make for an interesting national data discussion, Case-Shiller does not count/consider/track coops, condos or new developments in NYC. So perhaps it is not a very valuable sales indicator for apartments in our area. http://bit.ly/cRjEWh

In my opinion, a better indicator of 4Q 2009 residential apartment sales for these types of properties can be found for Manhattan, Queens and Brooklyn http://bit.ly/ape3nE.

To fully disclose, I am a buyer's broker for Prudential Douglas Elliman. Other reports you may want to consider are: Corcoran and Brown, Harris, Stevens for Manhattan and Brooklyn and Halstead Properties for the Q4 Manhattan data. ( I attempted to give links for these but was not allowed to because "You probably included too many links in your comment."

And since Sales and Rentals are inextricably linked, you may want to examine the Elliman rental report as well as the City Habitats report (Ditto for these links

PS. I like NYC pizza better!

Bob

I was kind of hoping others would post their own very favorite ever rufus (et alia) moldy oldies. Oh well.

i'll confess i had a good one in mind, but i became frustrated trying to find it.

very nice compilation. but sadly those responding to it weren't capable of enjoying it fully.

i do miss the guy.

> Rufus.

You beat me to it...

Alan, I was going to post some rufus, but I got thrown by you appropriating my chicago pizza line... (although my original was lasagna)

"Here is the most recent report. Says -7.1% YOY for NY which would be around the average. Where do you get top 3?"

NYC was one of the top 3 for month-over-month declines. For year over year declines, NYC is no where near the top 3. Prices in NYC have fallen much less than in most parts of the country, especially compared to FL, CA, NV, and AZ.

what was the mom decline in new york?

It was -1% overall and -1.2% in the "high tier" of the market. The following site has the data under the "Data Downloads" section. Just hit cancel when prompted for a username/password:

http://www.macromarkets.com/csi_housing/sp_caseshiller.asp

chicago and NY continue to lead the decline for december as well..down .6 and .5 respectively.

gayle is here and oprah is there

> NYC was one of the top 3 for month-over-month declines.

Funny, just 3 days ago you were denying the severity...

"NYC girls are ugly and annoying."

I resent that scandalous remark! NYC women may be annoying, and they are disease-ridden sluts, but they aren't ugly. I won't have it!

Just standing up for your honor, ladies.

Cordially,

Hugh G. Rection

By the way, YOU'RE WELCOME!

NYC girls are annoying, yes. But thats part of what makes 'em so hot.

"NYC girls are annoying, yes. But thats part of what makes 'em so hot."

Indeed. So WHAT if one-in-four of 'em have herpes? Of course, when you consider that the rate of STD infection in those gals over 60 or under 17 is probably nil, and its more like one in two of women of datable age. :@/

Annoying, disease-ridden sluts indeed. But not particularly ugly.

(Hugh still observes a strking lack of GRATITUDE on the part of the NYC wimmen whom he staunchly defended}

nyc girls are great..let get some focus back here. nyc and chicago continued the lead down for december

If you think NYC women are bad, you should see the men. Sounds like everything about Chicago is better...except the location. I'll leave that to you non-coastal types.