The Last Downturn..

I think you need to add: ONLY reply if you experienced it!... Too many newbie investors just don't "believe" such a downturn can happen EVER again.

it happened over night IMHO, slowdown for 1-2 years then market went completly illiquid.

early to mid-90's:
- high crime/murder rates in NYC (poor eco-socital conditions)
- effects of stock market crash in late 1980's (Oct 1987, etc) hurt the city's economic base
- national economy was hurt by S&L crisis
- more people moving out of the NYC then moving in

In 1996(bottom of the market in last 10 years), 1 bedroom apts were selling for 120k and studios were selling for 60k or less......it slowly crept up and then skyrocketed...stalled a bit after 9/11 and then skyrocketed again....now 1 bedrooms are 600k and studios are 350-40k.......and maintenance costs have gone up as well...too bad i didnt buy in 96....i was in contract and deal fell thru and then lost my mojo for real estate and never got it back...

#5 price quotes fully accurate, as far as I have been told.

For us to understand extent of downturn - #5, what was the drop in price during that time. For example, the one bedroom which was 120k - what was it before the downturn? Otherwise, we have no perspective on a price drop/change that got us there.

What goes up always comes down...those who overspent are very nervous and I don't blame them..time to get out of Manhattan real estate and rent.

The market will flatline for a few years and then just keep going up. 5 years everything will be higher and today's prices will seem like deals.

I don't recall anyone clamoring to buy in NYC before the 80's compared to the past 10 years. The RE market was viewed as cyclical and prob not the best long term investment due to high crime rates. Typically people would move to the city after college, rent, then get married and move to the burbs. Unless you were very wealthy and lived in Park Ave.

Also, in the 80's many rental buildings went co-op, which may have been a factor in supply and got more people buying instead of renting. So there were lots of changes affecting the NYC RE market before the downturn.

I didnt follow real estate prior to 1996 and so dont really know what the price drop was ....but im sure it wasnt really huge....i think the real issue was the unprecedented price increases from 96 to 07........

It was huge.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE1DB1531F93AA1575AC0A967958260&sec=&pagewanted=print

In the 90s there was a recession. It wasn't very safe to live in many parts of New York. There was rampant crime and quality of life issues (homeless people begging all over, graffiti, window washers attacking people's cars, drugs, etc). Giuliani totally turned it around and made the property values skyrocket. Manhattan used to be very un kid friendly but now everyone is staying to raise families here.

#13, Giuliani did nothing but grandstand, which he continued to do on and after 9/11, and is in high gear for now. The drop in crime in NYC was lockstep with the national drop in crime. Local BIDs cleaned up certain areas, while the others remain filthy. Giuliani took credit for things that were put in the pipeline by Dinkins -- the Times Square/Disney redevelopment deal, the federally-funded increase in cops -- while he put absolutely nothing in the pipeline for NY's future (unless you count little league stadiums in Coney Island and Staten Island). Nothing. Zero.

Dinkins was the worst mayor in history. Dinkins left NY crime ridden and unsafe. Giuliani cleaned up the smut from Times Square and made it safe to walk the streets without getting mugged.

"Nobody knows anything." Famous proverb. Even the past is up for debate, clearly.

whats funny, is all the people talking about NYC, who didnt live here. I grew up, in what was once called "Needle Park" now known as the very fashionable upper westside. NYC was a great place to grow up, and if you lived in a normal area it was realativly safe. The market in NYC was very strong in late 80's way before gulianni cleaned the place up. NYC, has had cyclical boughts of crime and safty throuout its history. The big difference now vs then, is that empty nesters(those who left after marriage and kids) are returning to live and desserting the suburbs. This along with Europeans, has insulated NYC market, thus far.

If interest rates continue to rise and when and if the dollar regains strength, i believe that prices will start coming down in nyc......much of what we are seeing is due to low interest rates and foreign investments.....

"..much of what we are seeing is due to low interest rates and foreign investments....."

#18, actually only a small portion of current and recent sales can be attributed to foreign investments; there are no reliable records on this but many RE agents estimate it's about 10%. These are mostly condos, which comprise about 25% of residential buildings (the rest - majority - are coops). The weak $ definitely helps but it's not as major a factor as people think.

Low interest rates may have driven part of the upswing, but what we're 'currently seeing' is pent-up demand, empty nesters and more families opting to stay in the city.

What has insulated NYC from a downturn is the fact that most buildings are coops, which have higher financial standards for residents than mortgage lenders.

#14, Guliani did enforce 'quality of life' ordinances by having cops arrest kids for jumping turnstiles and squeegee people. He also cleaned up corruption in the police force. That has to count for something whether or not you like the guy.

as others have already said, the last downturn was early to mid 90's. (and if anyone else here remembers even futher back, coops lost half their value from the early 60's to the early 70's, and climbed again from the time of ed koch to the late 80's.) my building went coop in 86 (as buildings were trying to cash in on the peak), with studios starting at 60k outsider price, 30k insider price. i bought my studio in 93, and the outsider price had dropped to 30k. banks were not even lending for studios, so i bought mine for cash. poor woman who sold me her studio, after paying everything off she only made $500.

prices then moved up gradually for the rest of the 90's. by about 97 i was looking at a 1br for 165k and studios around 60-75k. i bought another studio in 99 for 83k. then came 9/11 and i thought the whole thing was going to crash, but thanks to the fed "printing money", the opposite happened, and i sold my 83k studio for 185k in end 03, and my 30k studio for 250k in mid 05. the nice thing about my 30k studio was that my maintenance never went up! my timing was off for the peak (summer 06), but i know people now who are trying to unload their studio for almost 300k that has alredy sat for almost a year.

who knows when the downturn will finally hit nyc? but as sure as night follows day it will happen somehow one of these days, especially with subprime defaults now going through the roof. there's only so much that the rich europeans and asians will want to buy here. the only people who will bamboozle you into believing that there will never be a downturn are the corrupt major re brokers (like corcoran, elliman, etc.) who work hand in glove with developers to be "exclusive" marketing agents for overpriced and overbuilt condos. subways are getting more crowded but the service isn't keeping up. it's already taking more and more money just to keep things running as they are. and it's the "regular" people who are paying these ever increasing costs and taxes. there's no reason that more people won't want or have to move out of nyc than move in, like last time. keep your money out of nyc re for now, watch the trends, and rent...

(#18, i also believe interest rates will continue to rise to finally catch up with the fed's inflation of it, but it would not necessarily lead to the us dollar strengthening. you don't necessarily need a strong dollar abroad for re prices to come down at home. just look at all the property in the midwest that is as cheap as it's ever been, and you still don't see any europeans and asians lining up outside the doors!...)

I'm no Guliani fan but the most important thing he did in the police force was to make precinct commanders directly accountable for their crime numbers which were tracked on Compstat. Each commander had to explain their compstat numbers in a weekly meeting (I think it was weekly) with Guliani so the incentive or rather the stick was big.

It has to be said though that this was not Guliani's idea, not even Bratton's but rather the late Jack Maple's.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/anniversary/35th/n_8551/

Dinkins cannot take credit for the vast reduction in crime and other cities cannot claim that they also had similar declines because crime stats are now climbing for other cities but continue to go down for nyc.

Some housing bubble blog had a list of all relevant NYtimes articles frmo the late 80's, through the climb, crash and the subsequent trough. It gave an nice commentary on how this was preceived at the time.
I can't find it but did find this for the west coast
http://marinrealestatebubble.blogspot.com/2005/09/of-bubbles-past-chronological-listing.html

#21 - what neighborhood were you buying in? your studios even in 03 and 05 sound pretty reasonably priced.

My 1 bedroom was original purchased for about $150k by original owner but that was in 1983 (625 sqft)! Anyway I am curious of the locations of your studios? Prime neighborhoods?

#21 Thoughtful and informative post.
Thanks for the perspective.
I think you may be right about the future. Sure as night follows day...

#24, yes, a prime neighborhood, more specifically, west of the #1 subway at 103rd st. during 03 coop studios in my building rose from about 150k to 200k. i listed for 190k and took 185k in a week. cleared somewhere over 170k. i listed the 250k one in late 04, and the whole thing took so long, that i could have tried to squeeze another 50k out of it. the peak in my building started around summer 05 going towards 300k, with people trying to stretch it into the mid 300s all through 06. i think people are only now starting to price down into the hi 200s, but they are still pretty stubborn.

if you bought your 1br in 83 for 150k, then i'm sure you also must have seen the value go up, then down, then up again.

#25, thanks, good luck to you and everyone!

Thanks for your insight #26. I appreciate your feedback. I am wondering about someone who bought in manhattan, ideally south of 96th street.

I wasn't the original buyer of my 1bedroom in 1983 - only wish! It is a condo though which was purchased and it is right near columbus circle. So there should be some variances due to neighborhood dynamics and coop vs condo.

#27 you can look up comps on www.propertyshark.com for historic prices for your neighborhood and/or building.

#28 I will check property shark - but last time I looked it pretty much only has as far back as 2004 for prices. It will list the sale date etc. for the earlier years, but not the price (at least per unit).

#27, i know what you mean about below 96th street. as you know, back in the 80's it was still a little dicey to walk down broadway from 110th to 96th. so prices were considerably lower above 96th, but the building infrastructure was just as solid. one coop on 102/bway was agressively promoting their sponsor apts around 1994-95 in the upper 40's for studios and 60's-70's for 1brs. people were even reluctant to buy "so far uptown" at the time! i still remember the summer of 93 walking on the side streets btw wea and rsd and there were used crack vials all over the sidewalks! but ever since around 2000, fuggedaboudit! the price differentials are gone, and they're just about finishing building these 2 way-too-tall condo buildings on either side of bway btw 99/100. there was such a community uproar over it at the time, but it couldn't be stopped or resized. so now there is rezoning pending for bway that is meant to prevent this in future...

From the article #12 posted...

"...Another owner in the Christadora House bought her 1,100-square-foot, two-bedroom apartment for $270,000 in 1986 has been trying to sell it for 14 months. She first asked $305,000 and has lowered her price to $260,000. Her only offer so far, which she rejected six months ago, was for $220,000...."

The last unit like hers in Christadora House sold for $1,200,000 (according to our friends at streeteasy.com) in 2006, for about $1,700+ per square foot. The unit referenced above cost about $245 per square foot twenty years earlier, in 1986. That means the unit incresed in value by about 11% per year compounded, for twenty years. And remember, the first $500,000 is totally tax free, if you're married. If not, $250,000 is tax free.

And how much did all the bitter renters manage to save and make with their genius financial manueverings during the same twenty years' time? Did they earn 11% on their savings, compounded year after year for twenty years? And was the first $500,000 of their profit tax free?

If the market droppd TOMORROW by 20% - BOOM! OVERNIGHT! - then the $1,700(+) p.s.f. Christadora House unit would only be worth $1,360 p.s.f. - OVERNIGHT! And the investment return (compunded annullly, year after year, for 20 years) would STILL be almost a 9% return.

Gosh, even with an immediate 20% downturn overnight, my investment only returned (almost) 9% per annum compounded for 20 years - and in my case, the first %500,000 of that profit would be totally tax free! Plus, I had to live somewhere, and pay for that privilege, regardless. Such a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE investment real estate is!!

#31....aren't you smart...does it make you sleep better to put other people down.

#32 - wow - the truth burns, doesn't it?

#31 - The last 5 yrs is was has been largely responsible for the 11% return over 20 yrs. Over the last 5 years prices have essentially doubled for most places in manhattan if not more - but even if you assume just doubling then the place would have sold for 600K in 2001 which is barely over 4% over 15 yrs. Plenty of other places where you can get a better return.

Past history means nothing for people who are looking to buy now. If I buy a place tomorrow, are you saying I have to stay in it for 20 yrs before I can get that return? Do you plan to stay in your place that long? What is the likelihood over the next 5 yrs we're going to see the same type of appreciation that we have over the last 5??

#31, so what? big deal...

just because you made out like bandits in christadora house doesn't prove much else than that you made a certain decision that happened to work out at the right place and at the right time.

other investments also did just as well or better than nyc real estate during that period. and just like they say: "Past Performance Does Not Guarantee Future Results".

i think nyc real estate is at the end of the cycle, and i'm putting my money far away from it for now...

http://www.millersamuel.com/data/

Although it won't give you any of the context, the link above will give you quarterly psf, avg sales, and median sales data by neighborhood dating back to 1989.

CUT TO: #31, still staring into their self-affirmation mirror, seeing only their own, hideously-tanned self, while Little Black Arrows continue to hail down across the entire landscape.

#31: time to renew your shopping cart headshot. Oh, and your Lexus lease is up, too. And last: you need to send the NJDOT $50 if you want to renew your "LEREAH1" vanity tags.

CUT TO: #39, still the bitter renter, whilst Little Red Rental Arrows continue to fly endlessley, endlessly upwards to the sky and blanket the heavens...

And #40 - god, is the very best ammunition you can muster endlessly repeating the name of David Lereah anytime somebody makes you feel stupid and insecure? Have you no better game than continously isolating the same name in every one of your sad, sorry little posts? We ALL know Lereah is a lamebrain. So what? Big whoop.

My math is very simple. Bought in Christadora House in 1986 for $245 p.s.f. Twenty years later in 1986, comparable unit sells (according to this website) for $1,700(+) p.s.f. 11% per annum compounded over the twenty year period. Period. Have you compounded 11% per annum over the past twenty years on your (*ahem*) savings combined with your razor-sharp-no-margin-for-error financial wizadry (remembering the first $250,000 or $500,000 is tax free money)? I'll bet the answer to that question is...............NO!

The math is factual. Your repetitive invocation of Lereah's name reminds us all a bit of that lovable scamp Dustin Hoffman character in the movie "Rainman." I can see you now, in your bitter renter crapshack, repeating the name to yourself over and over, mantra-like, spittle slowly sliding out the side of your mouth "...Lereah...Lereah....Lereah...yup....Lereah...yup...Lereah...Lereah....yup...Lereah..."

Oh - so now you *also* bought in a building that happened to be posted further up in yet another thread at (of course) the lowest psf price in years. [Sheesh...how many properites can one failed broker claim to own?] Um: can I remind you how it was discovered that Joe Klein was "Anonymous"? Diction. Word choices. Writing style. Your horrible, repetitive posts...your continued aping of others' points and original creative goofiness...your unoriginality. It's all so repetitive and unvaried that it's clear you are the SAME PERSON who claims to have been so savvy about so many properties on threads ALL OVER Street Easy. Sorry, friend. You are played.

Who said I bought in Christadora?!? I NEVER said or even INTIMATED that was the fact. i'm just running the simple number s that other slackjacked no-nothing bitter renters like yourself love to throw out without doing their homework.

I would never live in that particular building. I happen to think it's icky. But in all your name calling, accusatory (nope, sorry, I'm not a broker, nor do I even have a job remotely related to the real estate industry), ranting, posts, I see you STILL couldn't argue with the math -

1986 - $245 per square foot
2006 - $1,700(+) per square foot

hold time = 20 years

per annum compounded rate of return = about 11% (first $250,000 or $500,000 TAX FREE, BABY!).

The only person who's played are bitter renters like your self - Um: can I remind you how it was discovered that "David Lereah" was "Anonymous"? Diction. Word choices. Writing style. Your horrible, repetitive posts...your continued aping of others' points...your unoriginality. It's all so repetitive and unvaried that it's clear you are the SAME PERSON who claims to have been so savvy ALL OVER Street Easy. Sorry, friend. The numbers are tthe numbers, and the facts are the facts. You can call people names all day long (sticks and stones, you know...), continue to flog Lereah's name, and rant as you did in your previous post until you're blue in the face - but it still won't change the numbers or the facts. SNAP!

#43 = Lereah. SNAP!

#43 - still no arguing with the facts, huh? Sticks and stones, sticks and stones....

1986 - $245 per square foot
2006 - $1,700(+) per square foot

hold time = 20 years

per annum compounded rate of return = about 11% (first $250,000 or $500,000 TAX FREE, BABY!).

Don't worry - I'll follow you with the real numbers until you give up and cry like the lil' bitch you are. Allow me the pleaseure of repeating...

1986 - $245 per square foot
2006 - $1,700(+) per square foot

hold time = 20 years

per annum compounded rate of return = about 11% (first $250,000 or $500,000 TAX FREE, BABY!).

1986 - 1990 -- enjoy four years of a vibrant, cutting edge neighborhood

1990 - 2006 -- suffer a miserable, crowded shell of a neighborhood that's dominated by sniveling NYU undergrads and worse.

You do the math.

#46

Are you retarded? Did you LIVE in that area from 1986 - 1990? Did you even live ANYWHERE in NYC from 1986 - 1990? Are you just an recent poseur, nostalgically pining for the 'good ole days' that you never exprienced personally first hand and have only read about in books somewhere?

At the end of the 80's, the area was very dangerous at night, crack vial filled the streetcurbs, HIV+ hookers roamed after dark, there were near riots in Tompkins Square Park which had turned into a tent city, crime was RAMPANT (including very violent crime like rape), and homeless people were everywhere. Yes, of course there were some good galleries (International With Monument, Fun, Pat Hearn). But that was really more 1981 - 1985. All the artists decamped for SoHo in 1985, and the galleries were closing down by 86. The East Village, between 1986 and 1990, was at its absolute nadir.

Yeahhhhhh - it's SO much worse now.

YOU DO THE MATH.

MillerSamuels link very interesting.
All the info you've ever needed is out there....

#41/#43/#45, what's the point of your diatribe, anyway?

i (see #21) was able to turn 113k into 435k in 12 years (so what's my "per annum compounded rate of return"?) and i don't consider myself anyone special. didn't know squat about where the re cycle was in 93, just coming back to nyc after some years away. in fact, i thought my studio might even go to nothing if only because rents were not that much higher than my maint, which was $500 vs. $650 (1brs in the area were around $850), rationale being, why would i spend 30k just to save $150/mo?

but i learned and studied along the way, and now i consider myself to have had a good combo of luck and diligence to make the whole thing work for me. right now my proceeds pay part of my rent (in the same bldg i was a shareholder in...), and i feel great in being able to help a few needy causes along the way...

there's a time to be in it, and a time to be out of it. this is the time to be out of it...

#49:

I think the difference between the two is not so pronounced as you would think -

One flipped studios, while the other flipped a two bedroom unit. It's no wonder the studio guy's return was so much lower on a dollar based basis. No surprise there.

But since you asked, if you do the math, the return on studio guy's 12 year flip is a little over 12% per annum compounded, actually a touch better than the Christadora House two bed unit at 11%. Have you earned 11% or 12% on your investments (on a compounded basis) over the past 12 - 20 years?

There's a time to be in it, and a time to be out of it. I guess you missed the time to be in it....

But we've been reading threads on streeteasy and other blogs like it that

2004 was the time to GET OUT.

and

2005 was the time to GET OUT.

and

2006 was the time to GET OUT.

and

2007 is the time to GET OUT.

and.....

(yawwwwn......)

"Who said I bought in Christadora?"

SFX: rewinding cassette tape.

V.O.: "My math is very simple. Bought in Christadora House in 1986 for $245 p.s.f. Twenty years later in 1986, comparable unit sells (according to this website) for $1,700(+) p.s.f. 11% per annum compounded over the twenty year period. Period. Have you compounded 11% per annum over the past twenty years on your (*ahem*) savings combined with your razor-sharp-no-margin-for-error financial wizadry (remembering the first $250,000 or $500,000 is tax free money)? I'll bet the answer to that question is...............NO! The math is factual."

ME: Um. I guess *you* said you did. Or were, as usual, sloppy enough to be so vague that one would surmise you were just lying again after another box of wine.

CROWD: OOF!

Oh, man, #47 does a callback to his art tirade of a few weeks ago *AND* adds the visual of "HIV+ hookers roam[ing] after dark." Get George Romero on the blower: this kid is a KLASSIQ!

Uhhhh, #51 - yes - let's rewind that tape together, shall we? Hmmmm?

If you actually read my post #31 (you can read, can't you? I'm not so sure after seeing how you interpret data), you'll see I QUOTED from the article that #12 referred to. In fact, I actually state before repeating the actual quote "From the article #12 posted..." That's why the quote is in "QUOTATION MARKS."

("these" "are" "quotation" "marks" "number" "51") (...sigh....)

CROWD: OOF!

Sadly, as all you can resort to is name calling and trying to confuse the issue, allow me to "QUOTE" from my post #50 (better for me to quote myself than for you, as you seem so easily confused)....

"...One flipped studios, while the other flipped a two bedroom unit. It's no wonder the studio guy's return was so much lower on a dollar based basis. No surprise there. But since you asked, if you do the math, the return on studio guy's 12 year flip is a little over 12% per annum compounded, actually a touch better than the Christadora House two bed unit at 11%...."

And the math is still SOOOOOOOOOOO very simple, thankyouverymuch! I know it's so very hard for you to deal with the true issue at hand, so all you can resort to is calling people names. But you still can't change the math. The math is STILL factual. And you're STILL not. So very sad.

And to #52, what can I say? I was there. In the East Village. In the 80's. Personally. Were you?

#50, if you're talking about me (#21/#49), 12 years is not a "flip". 1 day is a flip, 12 years is not. i bought my studio to live in, and then another one for office space, and just happened to be riding an uptrend in the meantime.

my point was that there was no use to berate people who couldn't or didn't participate in the last upswing. likewise if you think current nyc re is so great while someone else does not. so what if i cashed out because i got offers i "couldn't refuse"? and like i said way before, i know a studio owner in my bldg who's had it on the mkt for just under 300k and still hasn't sold it for almost a year. 2 more studios in my bldg were just listed this week, 1 for 275k and another for 325k. i honestly think they won't sell at these prices, unless a "last fool standing" comes along...

sure, i could be totally wrong about current nyc re, and would be the first to admit it, but any thoughtful investor knows at least these 2 principles: 1: opportunities abound everywhere, if you know where to look; and, 2: it's much easier to make up lost opportunity than to make up lost money...

#55:

Point well made and well taken - I did not mean to infer that your units were bought to 'flip,' per se, but more to illustrate the investment return. I apologize if my remark was perceived otherwise.

I think that most specifically, I agree with your assertion that "...opportunities abound everywhere, if you know where to look...," and I believe that there are still many terrific opportunities in Manhattan real estate, if one is VERY, VERY careful, and does one's OWN research (I'm not super big on brokers, myself - sorry). With the same breath, however, I would also agree that their are as many or MORE opportunities to get badly burned right now. It's almost like there's no 'middleground' to the Manhattan real estate market - it's all 'shit or masterpieces,' with nothing in between.

But when I see fools continually holding up Lereah in effigy (agreed, Lereah's a total wingnut, but using him as a tool to flog other posters with repeatedly is puerile), or mindlessly reposting their 'little black arrows' nonsense (again, after a while, it's just super-immature), well, these people should be flamed mercilessly IMHO.

#56, i've only just gotten back here after a few days...

i didn't remember who lereah was until i researched it; and, while i really have no opinion of him one way or the other, i would be hard pressed to consider the advice of a person whose very job it is to be a shill for an entire industry, much like the auto and tobacco lobbyists (at least until he quit that job earlier this year).

btw, i consider it fortunate to have used a broker only once in the four times i have gone through a purchase or a sale. believe me, i would have rather had the $15k or so commission in my own pocket! even now, i still get my broker's firm's "manhattan market report", and it makes for interesting reading, to say the least!

finally, as for well reasoned prognostications of where good investments are going internationally as well as locally, my list of people is exceedingly short, and at the top of that list i don't think you can do any better than Jim Rogers, someone with real hard experience to back up his assertions...

#57:

Easy there, sport.

First off, I was AGREEING with you regarding Lereah (please reread post 56 again if required). I think he's nutty. But every time someone seemingly has the temerity to say on this site that the NYC real estate market isn't going to crash into flames tomorrow, the naysayers pull out Lerah's name and flog him about like either you should think market WILL crash tomorrow, or you're a disciple of Lereah - and there's no other possible position. And that's just stupid.

And BTW I've been buying and selling Manhattan (mostly Village) real setate for over twenty years now, and have bought/sold approximately 85%+ of that property FSBO as well. So I don't know what the second paragraph in your post was referring to at all.

And goody-goody for you if Mr.Rogers' neighborhood is who you like to listen to for your real estate prognostications. I listen to myself, because I've been putting up my own hard earned money for the past twenty years buying and selling real estate in the Village through booms AND busts. In twenty years I've bought or sold almost 100 properties on my own (mostly 1 bed and 2 bed units, but also a number of townhouses), and I don't need to listen to Jim Rogers, David Lerah, or anybody else who talks in sweeping generalities and has probably never bought or sold a home in Manhattan in their life. I've got twenty years' experience, about 100 deals under my belt, and have managed to make a great deal of money on Manhattan real estate in good times and bad - I'll trust my own POV, thank you very much.

#58
I always wonder how people who sell FSBO evaluate qualified candidates?
Buyers don't come with a REBNY form in their hand.
Please inform...

I require a basic list of information:

Last two months consecutive paystubs.
Last three years' tax returns and 401K.
Last three months statements for all checkings, savings, brokerage, 401K, IRA, etc. accounts.
Employment verification letters stating length of employ, salary, and bonus history.
If renting, letter from current property manager stating term of rental and attesting to the applicants' financial veracity.
A statement complied and signed by a CPA of the applicants' assets and liabilities.
A waver to allow my real estate attorney to do a full credit history through three major credit verification sources.

In addition, I have my real estate attorney do a background check for past lawsuits, felony charges, bankruptcies, or any other verifiable issues that would be of obvious concern. My accountant reviews all financial statements, as well as double checks credit history reports for any red flags.

That's the basic nuts and bolts of it, plus a few additional checks and balances.

we did a FSBO for the very first time 2 years ago when we sold my husband's bachelor pad. granted it was a LOT of work and soooo disheartening (2 failed deals), we eventually got our asking price and a qualified buyer. is it doable...TOTALLY. is it easy...NO. luckily, my husband's pad was in a very "well known" building so it was not difficult to get an audience for the open houses. by the way, #58: you are my idol. I want to be like you when I grow up...unfortunately, we only have 2 properties under our belt and our family keeps on gowing so our extra income is going somewhere else....

#58 here again - I (obviously) forgot to include in my list posted at #60 that I would also require appropriate financing to be in place (no contingencies allowed) before accepting an offer.

To #61: FSBO deals can certainly go awry. Having an EXCELLENT attorney who specializes in Manhattan real estate and is a known quantity in that field goes a loooong way to smoothing over the transaction and minimizing problems. But I must also say that it's been my experience that working with brokers ALSO can provide for a number of difficult issues as well (and I might add that failed deals occur with and without brokers). You have to do what is most comfortable, I suppose. But having handled so many FSBO situations, at a certain point, one becomes a defacto 'pro' and can pretty much head off any trouble well ahead of any problem (particularly with a sharp real estate attorney). I prefer to use brokers for lower dollar value deals, and handle higher dollar value deals myself.

And I'll add, for what it's worth, that I did it with a family as well, but times (and prices with their inherent risks) are very different now. But stick with it - I can only say from experience that it's been very rewarding monetarily, but in othr ways as well - I exposed my kids when they were young to buying and selling real estate (obviously in a very abbreviated way, of course), and as they've gotten older, it's provided them with a number of very useful life experiences and education. Sharing this avocation with them has been the best aspect of the entire situation!

#58, a little bit of explanation on my part: i took your #56 agreement exactly the way you meant it, i'm sorry that didn't come out clearly. thing is, buying and selling nyc isn't my game, as it is yours, so the whole david lereah thing doesn't mean very much to me. i was merely analyzing the logical consequences of someone in his position.

as for my 2nd paragraph, i was chiming in with your comment, "I'm not super big on brokers, myself - sorry..." i'm not assuming that you are or are not a broker, but you also must like the idea of commissionless FSBO's, don't you?

and i mentioned Jim only because i'm not expert in everything, and i need help and good ideas from time to time. (he's also still living in my neighborhood, last time i checked, and i've had occasion to chat with him casually) and i certainly didn't mean to say that he makes any specific re recommendations worth listening to. rather that he (and everyone else) will give their opinions as to where american re is generally vis-a-vis commodities, chinese stocks, whatever. i'm not averse to taking in all the opinion givers out there, but i do try to filter it through my own logical devices. like i said, nyc re isn't my game; i just happened to benefit from it modestly well by being at the right place and right time, and now i'm looking to invest some of it out of the country...

This was my experience in purchasing condos in Battery Park City in the 90's:

Bought in 1993 1bed-1bath 750sf for $190,000 / Sold in 1996 for $263,000
Now valued at $700,000

Bought in 1994 2bed-1bath 814sf for $264,000 - Now valued at $900,000+

Bought in 1995 2bed-2bath 1090sf for $463,000 - On esplanade of BPC full Hudson River view with terrace
This apt. originally sold for $463,000 when the building was built (now 20yrs old). It sold 4 years later for $730,000 then DROPPED in the early 90's in price to where I bought it.
Loss was huge and had been rented for a few yrs.
Sold this apt. in 2002 for $930,000.

This shows you that prices do drop in Manhattan too, all depends on the NYSE etc.
Everything is great when you can make a profit BUT, you just never know!
Good luck to everyone.

This was my experience in purchasing condos in Battery Park City in the 90's:

Bought in 1993 1bed-1bath 750sf for $190,000 / Sold in 1996 for $263,000
Now valued at $700,000

Bought in 1994 2bed-1bath 814sf for $264,000 - Now valued at $900,000+

Bought in 1995 2bed-2bath 1090sf for $463,000 - On esplanade of BPC full Hudson River view with terrace
This apt. originally sold for $463,000 when the building was built (now 20yrs old). It sold 4 years later for $730,000 then DROPPED in the early 90's in price to where I bought it.
Loss was huge and had been rented for a few yrs.
Sold this apt. in 2002 for $930,000.

This shows you that prices do drop in Manhattan too, all depends on the NYSE etc.
Everything is great when you can make a profit BUT, you just never know!
Good luck to everyone.

BPC sucks and maintenance is too high. Never buy there as you will be competeing against other apts in Tribeca that have similar views and non-land lease maintenance rates.

BPC is the only part of the city that I would equate with the suburbs, and any real estate malaise which they carry . . .

#66, we who live in BPC live here for the VIEWS and yes, it is like living in the suburbs and you can go to the CITY in a matter of minutes. What a life and how lucky can you get!