Brooklyn Heights 2br and prices?

I can see why the last one went quickly. The layout is generous, the location is very good and it's priced at the same level as OBBP. I know it's a coop, but in a much better location then OBBP, so it deserves the premium.

The Henry Street place will sit on the market for a while. The bedrooms are small and badly layed out for the same price as the Orange St place.

I find the Poplar St place to have the best layout and getting a parking space would be wonderful. Depending on where it looks out, it could be nice or very noisy. At this price, it beats OBBP by a mile and has a better location. Knowing that the taxes are not tax abated is also a huge plus. I would expect this place not to stay on the market long considering the other 2.

I was wondering about this myself. There is quite a range for 2 bedrooms in the Heights now.

Here is a new one that is priced low for a 2 bed 2 bath- 695K.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/494734-coop-35-pierrepont-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

There are no pictures so it might need to be totally redone.

Here is another for 750K, maintenance is high though.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/494139-coop-111-hicks-st-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

Then there is this one just under 800K
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/492523-coop-45-pineapple-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

I have also seen quite a few around 1 million that recently went into contract.

I am curious as to what a 2 bedroom in the Heights is worth now and what they will go for in the future.

these 3 listing are significantly smaller then the first 3. what i find strange is that the bedrooms are all very nice size, but the living rooms are rather small. with the highish maintenance on all of them, St George being very high, on per sq ft basis, they will be on the market for a while. i would expect that the apartments around $1M most likely had much larger living spaces and similar bedroom with better maintenance per sq ft.

Yes, I agree the others are a bit smaller. However do you think that justifies spending 1 to even 3 hundred thousand more in some cases?
I am thinking of buying but am concerned about overpaying, especially when I am seeing this kind of price range.

The St. George maintenance is very high. I have seen apartments in the building and while some have nice views, I do not think the maintenance is worth it. I do not know what would cause the maintenance to be that high.

Looking back at the Poplar street building I see the price range for 2brs from the 2006 to 2009 time frame fluctuating between 790K (on the small side) to more than 950K. The seller is asking 872K and it looks like the apartment has been updated since the last purchase. Also looks like it has views of the Brooklyn Bridge.

The others do not appear to have views and there is no option to get a parking space (which I guess is most places in BRooklyn heights).

One Brooklyn Bridge Park still seems high, 166 Montegue has several 2br in contract for in excess of seven figures with a pretty high maintenance and taxes. It can only go up from there.

The question still remains, what does the Brooklyn Heights 2br now go for in this market?

there are always many different 2 Brs on the market in all areas and the prices usually match the size and layout of the unit. i've seen differences of as much as 70%. typically, the units that are larger and more expensive move faster.

brooklyn heights is a small neighborhood and there's no place to do any additional construction. because of that, it did not take a hit as bad as manhattan or places like park slope. this is why OBBP will be stuck while BH will sell like hot cakes for similar sized apartments and prices.

That brings up another interesting question. What impact do you think OBBP will have on sale prices in Brooklyn Heights? I read on another thread that some of the sales at OBBP are around 550 psf. 166 Montague appears to be doing farily well and holding their prices firm. I know there are a few other developments in the works, "Love Lane Mews" and one on Pineapple street. I haven't heard anything about 20 Henry street continuing its work.

I would say that new construction will stabilize at a certain price and then if the building does not sell, the investors and banks come in and slash prices like the Forte. I would think that may have an impact on psf prices but ab_ makes a good point that Brooklyn Heights is a small neighborhood that is also a historic district.

I have not heard alot about Love Lane Mews but I know the work is ongoing. 20 Henry has stopped all construction and I heard a rumor that there is litigation behind the finance arm of AIG and the owner.

ab_11218 what do you mean by a difference of as much as 70%? That sounds like a huge swing. I mean is there just a standard price psf for 2brs in brooklyn heights? Of course w/d, bathrooms, size, etc. would add to that average price.

The apartments you note are all very different. Poplar is large, but is far north; still nice, but not "prime" BH. 111 Hicks feels like a Days Inn. 66 Orange is quite large, but I think they overpaid. 35 Pierrepont is in a nice building in a great location--I think they've intentionally underpriced it to get buyers in. 45 Pineapple is a nice apartment, but there is a dry cleaner on the bottom of the building, which may bother some people. Not familiar with the townhouse, but it does seem pricey for a walk-up (and it really isn't 2 full bedrooms--80 sq ft). As for 166 Montague the apartments are nice, but the street is loud and maintenance is high.

The thing about BH if you look at sale prices is that they are all over the place and don't always make sense. Sometimes even looking at comps in the same building makes you wonder if some people even looked at past sale prices before they bought. That said, most decent two bedrooms start at about $750K and go up to about $950K.

BH "all over the place" is an interesting point. Looking at comps it does appear to range from mid 750K range up to and back in 2007/2008 over the 1 million mark.

Any opinion as to whether Brooklyn Heights has lagged in price decreases or because of the limited inventory it has stabilized or something else?

I am having trouble going back into the 1990s to see how much appreciation occured in the build up and what the current trend may be. I read a post from Jonathan Miller in another discussion and maybe he will weigh in over here. I know Broolyn is not his main topic of research but I believe he may publish data on this topic.

there's always a consideration of how much you pay per sq ft for an apartment the right size and the wrong size. take 2 two bedroom apartments in similar condition, a 900 sq ft and a 1200 sq ft. i would expect the 1200 sq ft apartment going for closer to 50% more in price rather then the 30% in terms of sq ft. this is due to having a more reasonable space that will appeal to an increased amount of buyers.

i'll say that the last thing that you want to do is look at the appreciation from the 1990s to today. you'll faint. i'll just give you an example. i was looking in 2000/2001 to purchase an 850 sq ft condo in Carroll Gardens West, some may call it Red Hook, but it doesn't feel like it. i was outbid on this 2 tiny bedroom apartment with a parking spot at $175K. these apartments are currently trading at $500K without spots. i would expect similar appreciation occured in BH.

wow ab. That is a huge run up. Is the 500K a 2007/2008 peak or is that what they are at now. I think I see what you are saying. Take the 75 Poplar building and the 55 Poplar building.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/75-poplar-street-brooklyn

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/55-poplar-street-brooklyn

at 75 Poplar 2brs ranging from below 1,000 sq ft to around 1,200 sq ft. The prices over the last three years have ranged from 695K to 895K

At 55 Poplar 2brs range from 795K to 835K. Your point is that depending upon the layout, work that needs to be done, bathrooms, etc. there could be a large swing.

just to show you what i mean... i could not find a 2 br for sale in those townhouse condos, but a 1 br is going for $399K. http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/489198-condo-36-carroll-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

as far as the units in 55 Poplar, my theory shot itself in the foot when it comes to sq footage. as you can see, the 697 sq ft 2 br are selling for much more. that is because the layout is great for such small space and the people who are looking for a large 1 br will be happy with this unit and pay a premium to get the extra bedroom/office.

whoever saw those buildings, why is 65/75 Poplar units going for much less than 55 Poplar with 55 having higher maintenance charges?

I have seen apartments in both buildings. The units in 55 Poplar seem to sit on the market for along time. The 75 Poplar units seem to sell eventually. Both buildings had a washer and dryer in the unit and central air, with a shared outdoor space. In both buildings some of the apartments had great views of the city and Brooklyn Bridge but faced the BQE.

Many of the 75 Poplar units have fireplaces which is a nice feature. I also liked that some of the apartments at 75 Poplar were a duplex. I think the prices at 55 Poplar are going to have to come down in order to sell.

I do not know why 55 Poplar prices are higher but that was part of the reason for the original post (i.e. whether there is some stability in price range or whether the swings in price can be justified by whether a renovation is needed or sqf or apartment specifics (W/D, fire place, bathrooms, etc.). One would hope that in this "new market" the banks and apprasiers are doing their due dilligence and getting real numbers. I do not want to start a long conversation about appraisers and their close relationships with RE brokers and "closing the deal", but has anything changed in their business? Isn't better for the general public to have them start giving accurate numbers so that the price swings start to narrow. Isn't better for the banks that have underwater problems in most of the country and for that to happen in NYC metro area would not help their bottom line.

So with these numbers in Brooklyn Heights, are we seeing stabilization, or at least a slowing of the downward pressure?

"it beats OBBP by a mile "

What's OBBP?

One Brooklyn Bridge Park. It is a "new" condo (on the market circa mid 2007) less than 30 percent sold.

at least from my perspective, BH is a very stable neighborhood where not too many people overextended themselves. now i could be wrong here. it's not like Downtown Brooklyn/Williamsburg/Bushwick where the young and the hip wanted to break into the next hot neighborhood and were paying through their noses. with little new construction, not too much movement and sellers who are stable enough not to have a fire sale, i don't think that the prices will "drop". moving slowly down with the rest of the market, could be. BH may prop the downward % up from the real figures in Brooklyn.

Here are two new 2brs. Clearly one is right off the Promenade which may explain the price of 1.2. The other seems to have a really small second bedroom. 2brs in Brooklyn Heights are now ranging from 690K to 1.2 million. Large difference in price?

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/495590-coop-10-montague-terrace-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/495583-coop-80-pierrepont-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

1.2M seems steep. Ceilings are low, but apartment is large.
The 80 Pierrepont seems a bit high too. The same apartment sold in April of 2006 for 925K so hard to believe it should be worth any more than that now.
That said, the pattern has been in BH to ask for a lot initially (in hopes of attracting a clueless buyer--and NYC is full of them) and then lower after a month or so if they can't sell.

ab_11218 thinks everything beats OBBP by a mile. I've actually seen the 66 Orange apt and several of the 65 Popular apts and neither beats OBBP by a mile. 66 Orange is a very nice apt. but the maintenance is very high for a building without a doorman and only real amenity is a basic roof deck. 65 Popular is a duplex which is hardly a desired floorplan by most buyers. As for price, OBBP has large 2 bedrooms with great floorplans available for significantly less than either apartment to in-line with those apartments (full disclosure, I am in contract at OBBP). As with anything, you have to see the apts to make good comparisons or at least look at all the information (nice try ab_11218). And not to bring up an old debate but OBBP is Brooklyn Heights.

Brooklyn1,

I would call the first new listing a 3 Br. that study is more than 100 sq ft, has a window and a closet. the apartment layout seems great as well with large rooms. being on the top floor with attic storage adds a lot, at least in my book. the maintenance is high though.

The second listing's room sizes are small, especially the livingroom at 15X19. I expect that this is an error or the floor plan was prepared incorrectly. the layout all in all is ackward. going into the dining room and one of the bedrooms is not something that anyone wants to do. having the bathrooms that opens up into the kitchen is also less desirable.

with these 2 units being close in size (first one being approx 150 sq ft larger), the layout makes a huge difference. if only the maintenance would be closer, the first unit would go for more and quicker.

based on these 2 new listings, the Poplar duplex is even more appealing. i think that it's location is keeping it back. for me, having kids and all, i would love to have a reverse duplex. this way, there will not be any upstairs neighbors waking the littles ones up when they do to nap/sleep. having the separation of living space and bedrooms on different levels makes it feel more of a house then an apartment.

now just to appease gator, Brooklyn1/BrooklynHeights, since you seem to be interested in BH...
1 - Would you consider OBBP being part of BH?
2 - Do you think that OBBP is worth while crossing the highway for?
3 - Would you consider, at current pricing, to purchase an apartment in OBBP?

ab

I do consider OBBP Brooklyn Heights. I have lived in Brooklyn Heights for more than twelve years and I have read the ongoing debates about whether OBBP is in Brooklyn Heights. In my opinion it is. With that said, and I have gone to OBBP, crossing under the BQE is a little much. Not bad, but a little much.

As for pricing, I would like gatornyc to please provide listing information for 2brs in OBBP that are less than Poplar and Orange. I would like to see the pricing for apartments that face the Brooklyn Bridge or face out over the water. The OBBP links always have different pricing, floor plans that do not appear correct, and it is just difficult to get accurate information. I hear this talk of $500 a foot but I do not see it online (not that I do not believe the previous posters on other discussions)

Gator, is OBBP still negotiating prices? At times, the sales team seems more mortivated (I have been there twice). Are the price cuts only facing redhook or over the BQE or do they extend througout the building. Is the building covering transfer costs? If we are going to compare these different apartments we need to discuss the fact the closing costs are a typical new contruction Condo can be very high (in my opinion).

At the current prices (when I see them from Gato), my concern would be the percentage of the building sold. Therefore, I do not think I would buy at this point there.

I hear that BofA, Wells Fargo, and another lender are lending at the OBBP. But the common charges appear high and with all of the different things being offered in the building the charges will likely go up. If a certain percentage of units are not sold and sponsor runs into financing trouble, I do not want to imagine what happens, nor do I wish anything bad on people that bought there. It may turn out to be a great investment (higher risk/higher reward), but I need more information to make a true and fair comparision.

Brooklyn, Orange was listed at $965,000 and Poplar is listed at $872,000. At OBBP all of the following units are listed less than or equal to these listings: Unit 543 is listed at $850,000 and 643 at $865,000 (the 43 line is courtyard view); Unit 605 is listed at $905,000 (harbor/brooklyn view); Unit 722 is listed at $965,000 (courtyard/harbor view). One thing to consider when comparing these prices is that all of the OBBP units are between 200-300 sq/ft larger (though I appreciate it can be difficult to compare sq/ft listing from one building to another; I have been in the Orange apt though and there is no question that it is smaller than my unit at OBBP). The harbor units start at a list of $1.25.

These are just list prices however. It is my understanding that OBBP is negotiating from list on most units in the building. The list on the unit I am in contract for was $815,000 or about $570 sq/ft. I was able to negotiate this down such that OBBP is paying most of the closing costs (including transfer tax) or the equivalent of $548 sq/ft.

As for the percentage sold, that was a concern of ours as well. The fact is that the best units tend to sell first and this was the case with the units we were interested in at OBBP. We bought the last of the units in the line that we were interested in. So for us it was buy now or don't buy in OBBP. Given the loan extension, current sales traction, the imminent opening of Piers 1 and 6 of the Park, etc., we are confident that the building will succeed.

Regarding the common charges, and I've discussed this on other threads, I don't understand why people think that they are high at OBBP. The maintenance for the 66 Orange apt is $1,635 which is virtually identical to the CCs and taxes (albeit with exemption/abatement) as my unit at OBBP and 66 Orange doesn't even have a doorman! At Poplar, the maintenance and taxes are $1200 and again not even a doorman. With all the amenities offered by OBBP -- full time doorman, gym, children's art and play rooms etc. -- I think OBBPs CCs are quite fair. My attorney and I have been through the offering plan and it appears to us that the CCs are now appropriately estimated (they have been adjusted upwards twice I believe).

As for having to cross under the BQE, I don't find it a big deal now and once the uplands of Pier 5 are finished (early 2011) it will be a complete non-issue.

Gator thanks for the response.

As for Poplar, the current ask does not include the parking space. If it did, I think it would be well priced in this market. With a deeded parking space (outdoor or indoor) in the Heights, to me, also without children YET, I think it would go for a little above the current ask for both. Also, fire place and view is nice.

Orange street is too small, poor lay out, and the building leaves much to be desired. I read from another one of your posts that you also live in the Heights so you/we know the buildings are across a wide range of quality.

I hear your points about OBBP. If you do not mind me aksing, a) do you recomend someone in the sales office to speak with? OBBP's "new" website leaves alot to be desired (difficult to find or non existent floor plan) b) did you entertain purchasing a parking space? I believe monthly rentals are still in the $160 range.

If we are talking about the same courtyard view apartments (building is large) I believe those had a small living room/dinning room. They were also a little dark for my tastes. Does your apartment have the full second bedroom or is it off the living room?

Brooklyn, sorry for the delayed response, but I got away from my computer for awhile. I certainly agree that there is a wide range of buildings in the Heights. One thing that gets frustrating is that people just look at listings and assume that buildings are comparable without ever seeing them. Orange is a nice building, but certainly nothing special. Popular is much the same. Very basic amenities and while well-kept. I would have and did entertain both buildings but not at those prices.

At OBBP I would speak with Rachel Poggi; she is the Director of Sales. She was very forthright and a pleasure to deal with. I actually like OBBP's new website (the look and feel at least), which seems to have gone live only within the past few days, so floorplans and the like probably will be up shortly.

As for a parking space at OBBP, we did consider it but elected to defer for the time being. The monthly rate on the garage is simply too good currently at about $180/month. As I understand it, there are plenty of deeded parking spaces still available so I'm in no rush, but I'll be keeping an eye on it. Hard to determine what the fair market value of a parking space is but I would agree that the Poplar apt would be more competitive if it included the parking space. But even at $50,000 for the space I think Poplar is overpriced.

My wife and I are in contract for a 2bed/2bath with a Brooklyn view. We looked at the courtyard view units and we would agree that they were a little dark and the Brooklyn view makes the unit feel larger. We personally think the Brooklyn view is outstanding; it may not be a Manhattan view or harbor view, but it is also much less expensive. Our unit has the smaller 2nd bedroom off of the living room. That floor plan works better for us than the units with the bedrooms across from each other as it will be easier to convert to a three bedroom in the future if we choose to do that.

Good luck with your search. Look forward to hearing what you decide.