Why is there so much public housing in NYC?

Alanhart When society can tell you what percentage of your income you are allowed to keep than you are no better than a slave. Society owns you, they are your master. I know socialism is an ideal utopia for you and you fear liberty and individual responsibility.

"...You probably would not want to be told that you should commute 90 minutes each way to work for minimum wage to serve higher-paid people, and virtually never see your children; or that you shouldn't even have children because your minimum wage income is enough for you to share a bedroom with other adults on a fairly permanent basis, but not more...."

Jason: Hmmmm...Alan you have just described....PARIS. Paris France. Where the poor and minorities mostly live in the suburbs and the wealthy live in the city. Funny that Julia wants us to be more like FRANCE.

you still haven't explained what happens to everyone besides you. you can say free market capitalism 5,000 times but what happens to everyone else? as alan asks, who will stick around to wait on you?

and by the way, if you really are in the top income bracket or any income bracket for that matter and you think that's akin to slavery, you're certifiable. are you being degraded, beaten, starved and traded like cattle? get over your nonsense.

> And my point is that you want to live in a "desirable" neighborhood, presumably with lots of
> services (restaurants, drug stores, upscale groceries, etc.), staffed by the very same low-income
> people who you say have no right to live in those desirable neighborhoods, and imply that there's a
> magic place a hop skip and a jump away in the outer boroughs where they can live affordably at
> market rate ... but there isn't.

But there likely would be if not for rent stabilization. Nothign pushed yuppies to the outer boroughs than a housing market strangled by government regulation, rent regulation, and the union building "tax".

Btw, we did have a system like that just a few years ago... again, it was called the outer boroughs!

> You had the benefit of coming from a working-class family, while others come from families that are
> far below that that -- the "working poor".

My folks were below the poverty line when I was young. Want to try that one again???

"If you went to public school your entire education was paid for by others -- taxpayers. If you went to private or parochial school, much of your education was subsidized by others -- philanthropists and/or tithers."

Agreed. And I'm in favor of public education. So, not sure what your point is.
Btw, I've paid the education back in spades in taxes since.

"If you attend higher education (private or public, college or advanced degrees) your tuition represented a very small fraction of the cost of education, the rest paid for by others (taxpayers and donors)"

Donors. And I became one of those donors. Haven't fully paid it back but I'm getting there.

> Yet instead of being appreciative of the things you've gotten and the things you have

I am VERY appreciative of these things... and I want them to continue. I want GREAT public education. I like subsidizing small business that create jobs. I LOVE the hand up (not hand-out) ideal.

I am not complaining that my wealth goes to pay for those things. I complain when it goes to crap that doesn't work.

> you focus on what others have (and you've decided they don't deserve).

I certainly never said what folks "deserve".

> The next step down the ladder of depravity and reptilian self-pity is to become like julialg:

To me, extreme liberalism is just as bad as what you're accusing juliag of.

completely unable to focus happily on the 50% of her nominal earnings, and obsessive over the part that she's told she's earned, but really hasn't --
> it belongs to the society that maintains the matrix in which she works.

Well, now thats a load of crap.

It doesn't "belong" to society. If we make a social contract to share it in tradeoff, fine. But this crap that someone else "owns" what they did not produce.

Wasn't my intention to be "snotty". Sorry if I offended anybody with that comment.

"Jason: Hmmmm...Alan you have just described....PARIS. Paris France. Where the poor and minorities mostly live in the suburbs and the wealthy live in the city. Funny that Julia wants us to be more like FRANCE."

Well, do we want the other way around? Does Detroit look pretty good to you?

"Jason: Hmmmm...Alan you have just described....PARIS. Paris France. Where the poor and minorities mostly live in the suburbs and the wealthy live in the city. Funny that Julia wants us to be more like FRANCE."

Well, do you want the other way around? Does Detroit look good to you?

BTW, its a strawman if anyone is claiming I don't think there should be public housing. But these minicities of projects are just eternal failures.... with subsidized parking lots! (absolutely batty when you look at the manhattan ones)

When somebody believes in the philosophy "that she's told she's earned, but really hasn't-- it belongs to the society that maintains the matrix in which she works." run like hell away from that person. They will control you, own you, smother you and eventually destroy you for their own needs. People like alanhart are very dangerous. He betrays his true intentions with his own words.

still waiting to hear your plan for all the people who will have no way to support themselves.

and...while you're at it---tell us again how a taxpayer is just like a slave.

Hey cc... Lets just stop the pretense. Why doesn't the government by force take the wealth from the "rich" and give it to the poor.

all you do is exaggerate and distort. no one is advocating changing the status quo other than you. still waiting on your plan for the people who get cut out.

Nobody gets "cut" out, everyone has the same opportunity. Work hard and you will succeed . Stop waiting around for the nanny to take care of you.

but what happens to people who are living on transfer payments from the government when the transfer stops?

They work and support themselves.

more slogans. they work where? doing what? remember we are short 15 million plus jobs?

> still waiting to hear your plan for all the people who will have no way to support themselves.

Work toward a system that you know, uh, REWARDS job creation and economic development, not just tax it to death.

Any "plan" requires folks to PAY FOR IT. Any system that destroys that class of people is doomed.

So, what's your plan to pay for a social net if you don't have private job creation? You and alpo have the magical system where the government pays for everything?

i think you need to re-read your friend julia's comments. according to her, the gov't shouldn't tax anybody so....tell me, without taxes, how would the gov't reward job creation?

and, i think, we've certainly seen the results (or more properly lack thereof) of indiscriminate lowering of taxes.

i'm still waiting to hear her plan for avoiding rioting in the streets when she removes all transfer payments.

I lived in the projects, until the age of 6. My father worked 2 jobs, and my mom had to stay home and take care of us 2 kids.

I think that I turned out O.K.

"and, i think, we've certainly seen the results (or more properly lack thereof) of indiscriminate lowering of taxes."

Well, lowering taxes from the crazy liberal highs certainly worked in terms of feeding the economic engine. So much so that even the Democrats got on the train.... starting with Clinton.

"I lived in the projects, until the age of 6. My father worked 2 jobs, and my mom had to stay home and take care of us 2 kids.
I think that I turned out O.K."

Night and day. The projects now vs. projects 20-30 years ago are completely different. I grew up across the street from the projects, and the open enrollment changed them dramatically.

CC... "how would the gov't reward job creation" What an idiotic comment.The government should get out of the way.

help us out...how would that work? what exactly are you proposing. no more slogans.

by the way, i thought clinton raised taxes, not lowered them. care to clarify that point?

just to help you out....

CLINTON TAX BILL; CLINTON PROPOSAL FOR TAX INCREASES PASSES FIRST TEST

The legislation would raise taxes for individuals and businesses by a total of nearly $250 billion over the next five years, one of the largest tax increases in American history.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/14/us/the-clinton-tax-bill-clinton-proposal-for-tax-increases-passes-first-test.html?pagewanted=1

cc... End of the cold war. (peace dividend)
A complete new industry (internet)
A republican congress(The era of big government is over--clinton)

The economy was going to boom even if bozo the clown was president. The tax increase was a drag on the economy. The economy would have grown even faster without the tax increase. Only the foolish believe the economy grew because clinton raised taxes.

do you know how to read?

i was responding to your friend's comment above: "Well, lowering taxes from the crazy liberal highs certainly worked in terms of feeding the economic engine. So much so that even the Democrats got on the train.... starting with Clinton."

still waiting on the specifics of your ideas. starting to think that you have no specifics and no ideas other than endless vapid slogans. prove me wrong.

Hey cc I told you what i would do. How about you.. Higher taxes more government spending and a exploding debt... Great job..

help me out...i completely missed your plan...please re-post.

Lets here your plan.. Oh, I know, Tax the rich, more government spending, icrease government programs and exploding debt that your children and grandchildren will bear...Brilliant.

talk about answering a question with a question....you answer a question with an answer (from me supposedly). you go first, please repost your plan and then i'll be happy to give you my take. but...i still don't understand you plan.

free market capitalism

ok...

but....that's a slogan, not a plan.

what does it mean? what happens to the people who are getting the benefit of gov't transfers?

Free market capitalism is a slogan? You are sad. Read Free to Choose and educate your liberal brain.

so...your plan is that i should read your book? perhaps you might be able to summarize the high points.

Well, somewhereelse: Guess what? The people that I know who live in the projects now; have honor student kids in public schools.

In 20-30 years,I hope they continue to be good people and do something productive with their lives. I guess if it were up to you... they wouldn't stand a chance. Just because they grew up in the projects.

julialg: If you want to help the poor, I will not stop you.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The clerk, in letting Scrooge’s nephew out, had let two other people in. They were portly gentlemen, pleasant to behold, and now stood, with their hats off, in Scrooge’s office. They had books and papers in their hands, and bowed to him. ’Scrooge and Marley’s, I believe,’ said one of the gentlemen, referring to his list. ‘Have I the pleasure of addressing Mr Scrooge, or Mr Marley?’

‘Mr Marley has been dead these seven years,’ Scrooge replied. ‘He died seven years ago, this very night.’

‘We have no doubt his liberality is well represented by his surviving partner,’ said the gentleman, presenting his credentials.

It certainly was, for they had been two kindred spirits. At the ominous word liberality, Scrooge frowned, and shook his head, and handed the credentials back.

‘At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge,’ said the gentleman, taking up a pen, ‘it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.’

‘Are there no prisons?’ asked Scrooge.

‘Plenty of prisons,’ said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

‘And the Union workhouses.’ demanded Scrooge. ‘Are they still in operation?’

‘They are. Still,’ returned the gentleman,’ I wish I could say they were not.’

‘The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?’ said Scrooge.

‘Both very busy, sir.’

‘Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,’ said Scrooge. ‘I’m very glad to hear it.’

‘Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,’ returned the gentleman, ‘a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?’

‘Nothing!’ Scrooge replied.

‘You wish to be anonymous?’

‘I wish to be left alone,’ said Scrooge. ‘Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don’t make merry myself at Christmas and I can’t afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned-they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.’

‘Many can’t go there; and many would rather die.’

‘If they would rather die,’ said Scrooge, ‘they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides-excuse me-I don’t know that.’

‘But you might know it,’ observed the gentleman.

‘It’s not my business,’ Scrooge returned. ‘It’s enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people’s. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!’

Seeing clearly that it would be useless to pursue their point, the gentlemen withdrew. Scrooge resumed his labours with an improved opinion of himself, and in a more facetious temper than was usual with him.

"i was responding to your friend's comment above: "Well, lowering taxes from the crazy liberal highs certainly worked in terms of feeding the economic engine. So much so that even the Democrats got on the train.... starting with Clinton.""

CC, you obviously don't have a clue about tax rates pre-Reagan.... event he clinton rates were waaaaay on the other side of the fence.

not to mention, you should also check your history.

In '97, Clinton signed a reduction of the capital gains tax frmo 28 to 20!

(doesn't sound like much of an increase to me)

ust to help you out....

CLINTON TAX BILL; CLINTON PROPOSAL FOR TAX INCREASES PASSES FIRST TEST

The legislation would raise taxes for individuals and businesses by a total of nearly $250 billion over the next five years, one of the largest tax increases in American history.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/14/us/the-clinton-tax-bill-clinton-proposal-for-tax-increases-passes-first-test.html?pagewanted=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdRpyfEmBE cc and alanhurt and all you so called liberals, watch this to see pure genius.

What to do about the poor folks living in public housing in this town, then?

Hey! Why don't they:
#1 Go back where they came from.

#2 Get sent to "work camps". The wealthy can first pay them to build "work camps" somewhere else. Upstate New York maybe. Then ship them to the "work camps", and send the elderly and frail to take a nice "shower". The others get dorm-style housing.

Why don't we all just go back to whereever our families originally came from?
Then, the native Americans can get their land back.

hey falsehood Read this and learn..........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdRpyfEmBE

if you have something to say...say it...no one has time to watch your stupid tubes.

Who is "falsehood"?

cc spoken like a true intellictual

cc spoken like a true intellectual

still waiting on your explanation of how free market capitalism will actually work for all the people who currently are living in part or completely on transfer payments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdRpyfEmBE THAT IS MY ANSWER... WATCH LOVE AND LEARN

so...you can't explain it?

why is that not a surprise? fun to criticize and let loose with your slogans but when it comes to solutions?

Seeing our friend julia speaks only in soundbites and slogans and loves to refer folks to books and now youtube links(argh)...here are a few quotes that this discussion

Be careful of your thoughts; they may become words at any moment. ~Ira Gassen

Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument an exchange of ignorance. ~Robert Quillen

The trouble with her is that she lacks the power of conversation but not the power of speech. ~George Bernard Shaw

and perhaps the best......

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. ~Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain

"here are a few quotes that this discussion brings to mind..."

Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. -George Bernard Shaw

still waiting to see if you have any thoughts of your own. time to prove me wrong.

julia = smart. however julia; you might want to be careful to not think in the absolute. i do not think that reasonable people would object to taxation that funds the legitimate activities of government. i'd like to know if that is an acceptable view to you. if that is acceptable to you then we're talking about what is legitimate and what is not.

if that is not acceptable to you then how do you guard against the inevitable anarchy and despotism that results from little-to-no-government? it's just that i'm not seeing where you limit the minimization of government you know? i agree with you in principle and have my own thoughts on the topic but am interested in your view.

oh...also do you object to a very basic social safety net ala social security and medicare/caid? if you do, how would you propose addressing them going forward?

Julia -- Milton Friedman?? Discredited by a cottage industry of economists and ethicists that arose to point out the deficiencies in his theories.

I'm wondering whether you pave your own street, provide your own private police force for yourself and in all other ways allow government to get out of your way. Will you decline Medicare and Social Security when you're 65?

In the course of a lifetime, there are many ups and downs. Fortunately, we have a government safety net these days so we don't have to go to the poorhouse or work the treadmill or decrease the surplus population. I hope you will never need to avail yourself of government assistance, but you never know. You might be happy someday when it saves your life.

selected quotes from julia:

"The poor get subsidized housing, food stamps, free education. free health care. social security disability and welfare. There is no need for the poor to improve themselves. They live in a nanny state with no desire for liberty."

"I do have a solution cc. It is called free market capitalism."

"The people who have no money have to get jobs and work hard and save money."

"There are no jobs because the government is taxing the producers to death."

"no income tax which is immoral and get the government the hell out of the way."

"When society can tell you what percentage of your income you are allowed to keep than you are no better than a slave. Society owns you, they are your master."

"Why doesn't the government by force take the wealth from the "rich" and give it to the poor."

You think this is smart?

looks like julia needs a little help.

here you go---http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/milton_friedman.html

660incontract..... I believe in an extremely limited federal government... Military and court system to protect against the criminals. Absolutely no income tax witch is immoral. Other taxes are fine, for example real-estate and user taxes preferably on a state and local level.(for schools and road etc.) Social Security and Medicare I completely reject for all the reasons described in the Friedman utube video.

so who pays for:

interstate highways
meat inspectors
FDA
FDIC
SEC

just to name a few.

and, as I've endlessly asked, who covers the people who are currently living on and expecting to live on social security and medicare?

If Julia hates the govt. so much, maybe she should not use it anymore. Instead of police, she should hire her own Blackwater guards. Instead of the fire dept. she should get a garden hose. Instead of using the streets and sidewalks, she should go everywhere by jet pack. And instead of getting Medicare at 65, she should go see a witch doctor.

I'm just curious, can someone here think of a single industrialized country that has free market capitalism? I've thought about this question last night, but I could not think of a single country. So come on, if free market capitalism is so great, you must be able to name at least 1 modern country that currently has it.

Here is the latest lunacy in the libertarian movement: Appraently people should not be required to wear seat belts. I guess seat belts are socialist. So yes, let's do away with seat belts. Maybe that is the GOP plan to fix Social Security: Let everyoen die in car accidnts before they turn 65.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/rand-paul-seatbelts-shoul_n_520761.html

Watch the Friedman utube video for Friedman's explanation of free market capitalism throughout history. Brilliant el presidente, brilliant

but....you never answer any questions, do you? just slogans, and now youtube. can you not think for yourself?

so who pays for:

interstate highways
meat inspectors
FDA
FDIC
SEC

just to name a few.

and, as I've endlessly asked, who covers the people who are currently living on and expecting to live on social security and medicare?

from julia:

"THAT IS MY ANSWER... WATCH LOVE AND LEARN"

sounds a lot like a groupie....sorry, you are obviously in love but no one else is.

Why can't you explain free market capitalism in your own words Julia? You did pass high school English, right?

"Absolutely no income tax witch is immoral."

So it's immoral to have absolutely no income tax witch? Would the morally-required income tax witch have a pointy hat and ride around on a broom? You could press Ann Coulter into service for that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdRpyfEmBE... Watch and learn alan. It not as simple as krugmans 2 +2=5 theory, but I think you can handle it.

more watch and learn? what happened to WATCH LOVE AND LEARN? no more love?

how come you can't tell us what happens? getting a little embarrassing?

columbiacounty, I'm disappointed. I press the unignore button then I enlarge your font then I make it a readable color, and I get ... that?

Can you at least offer a point of view? Saying nothing but merely expressing anger doesn't tell us you have any intellect, point of view, opinion, or purpose for existence in this world.

hfscomm1... AMEN

ut....you never answer any questions, do you? just slogans, and now youtube. can you not think for yourself?

so who pays for:

interstate highways
meat inspectors
FDA
FDIC
SEC

just to name a few.

and, as I've endlessly asked, who covers the people who are currently living on and expecting to live on social security and medicare?

ATTENTION CITIZENS OF N.Y.C.:

The income tax witch was just spotted landing her broom in Central Park.

What is she doing there, so late at night?

When somebody believes in the philosophy "that she's told she's earned, but really hasn't-- it belongs to the society that maintains the matrix in which she works." run like hell away from that person. They will control you, own you, smother you and eventually destroy you for their own needs. People like alanhart are very dangerous. He betrays his true intentions with his own words.

but....you never answer any questions, do you? just slogans, and now youtube. can you not think for yourself?

so who pays for:

interstate highways
meat inspectors
FDA
FDIC
SEC

just to name a few.

and, as I've endlessly asked, who covers the people who are currently living on and expecting to live on social security and medicare?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdRpyfEmBE.. cc

When somebody believes in the philosophy "that she's told she's earned, but really hasn't-- it belongs to the society that maintains the matrix in which she works." run like hell away from that person. They will control you, own you, smother you and eventually destroy you for their own needs. People like alanhart are very dangerous. He betrays his true intentions with his own words

what about people like you---spouting slogans with no idea of the implications. when challenged, you send people to youtube?

you have no explanations because there are none. friedman was a glib opportunist who also liked to slide past facts that contradicted his thesis. he has apparently attracted simpletons like you to worship at his altar. you have no idea of what you are talking about so either provide some back-up or spare us your endless sloganeering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdRpyfEmBE. CC

Thanks Truth for pointing out that you lived in a project, that your dad worked 2 jobs and that you know great students living in them (as i do too).

the poor in USA often work the hardest. julialg is the type that blames poverty on their inability to "work hard" and "save". yet, doesn't really understand that the system she would love to be implemented without any safety net whatsoever creates persistent poverty. the worst part, is that for sure julialg has contact with people living in poverty while working (for her) con a constant basis (do you have a maid? a nanny? how is your delivery guy doing?) but she just simply disregard them as "people", prefers to moralize their condition instead of understanding it.

here is a worthy exercise for julialg: imagine you work 2 full time jobs on minimum wage, and see how you make do. USA is a country in which if a couple of big things go bad, chances are you end up homeless... this is not a great safety net what you want to see destroyed. most of the "blame" for homelessness and poverty is just luck, not how hard you work... so if you are so unhappy paying so much taxes, work less and be grateful you don't know yet what homelessness is (not my case either, it's somehow easier for me to imagine it though than for you). keep in mind you might end up homeless too.

imho you sound to me like you NEED more leisure (and more SEX by the way). life is not a treadmill, the rat race is for idiots, RELAX lady!

I find it most humorous that the person who proclaims she is an advocate of "personal liberty" can't put together one independent thought. Having the "freedom" to be a sheep is a beautiful thing. It is folks like Julia that make all political and religious allegiances truly frightening. Don't worry about exploring or reasoning on your own just rely on others to represent your views. YIKES. Now everybody repeat after me.
Free Market Capitalism
Free Market Capitalism
Free Market Capitalism
Ra Ra Ra

Julia -- You haven't yet convinced anyone of your philosophy because you can't argue it yourself. Your dire warnings carry no weight because they are not backed by logic or sense. My experience with Friedman's ideas is that they can't be sustained logically or ethically. I had the opportunity to argue it out with The Great Man himself several times and was never impressed. Let's pretend the Friedman Youtube interview clip doesn't exist so you can't refer us to it. Pick one Friedman point and explain to me why it is universally true and applicable and will either create more good for more people or is inherently morally correct. I await your answer with interest. .

The philosophical disagreement of the individual or the collective is extremely important. The more powerful the government, the more we lose individual liberty. We are currently at a very dangerous point in this country. People who have absolutely no concept, understanding or knowledge of the history of socialism and dictatorship are complete embracing government control. You are so willing to give up your individuality and liberty for security.... I find that pathetic and abhorrent.

groupies worship their god and are speechless when asked for any explanation.

extremely important

more powerful

dangerous point

absolutely no concept

pathetic and abhorrent

more slogans without meaning.

>> julia said: ... extremely limited federal government... Absolutely no income tax witch is immoral.

ok and i agree mostly. but we better get started on that 16th amendment repeal huh?. imagine the power shift back to states and individuals if there were no individual or corporate income taxes. of course you'd have to be watchful of the tax cheat (swiss and cayman bank accounts et al)

>> Social Security and Medicare I completely reject

completely? you sure about that? i mean good for you...at least you are consistent. however i think as a reasonable person you'd want to make allowances for those that cannot care for themselves...and i'm not talking about the lazy; i'm talking about the mentally retarded and infirm elderly who have means to pay. so i'm saying minimize the systems and means-test them. is that reasonable?

I agree 660incontract that society must provide for the 2 or 3 percent that cannot care for themselves.... preferably by private means. However, to enslave the other 97% just for the 3% is madness.

how long before there is rioting in the streets? this is all so a small, privileged segment of our society can avoid paying income taxes? Or is this some abstract statement of righteousness? or is this about returning to the bucolic society of the 1700's when the population of the country was tiny and everything was different?

will this help us as a society to compete in the world? and, by the way, once we eliminate all taxes, are we going to default on our outstanding debt as well?

more talk of slavery?

you might want to ask slaves how they would feel about being in the top income bracket in the US in 2010 and how that compares to being a real slave.

>> generalogoun said "Julia -- You haven't yet convinced anyone of your philosophy because you can't argue it yourself."

let me stop you there... i agree w/julia in principle although i do see a major gap in terms of a basic social security net for the truly needy. and the basic need for a social safety net is where we agree general.

however where we depart and i go to julia's side is *where* those systems execute...federally or locally. i think if you focus on that for a moment you'll see the value in what julia is trying to convey in terms of concentration of federal power and federal taxation. it's important to recognize that these taxes which are supposed to go towards all of our futures are actually spent on *other* government programs. there is very little accountability of these funds which do not actually exist at the moment if you've been following the news :)

for one i would be inclined to have those social programs be minimized and localized such that power is diffuse around the country instead of centralized federally. i think that's reasonable and addresses many of the concerns all around. or no?

and be fair...just because she likes uncle Milty doesn't invalidate her argument. ad hominem attacks against uncle milty don't really state a case at all. you know?

and be fair(-er) :) yes, there are many smart folks that disagree with uncle milty. but that doesn't invalidate his point of view either.

"The more powerful the government, the more we lose individual liberty."

ok julialg, if you pay so much taxes it means that you are earning way and beyond what's absolutely needed for survival. why on earth don't you just work part time and claim your FREE time as yours? you more taxes you pay, the cheaper it is for you to buy LEISURE time for yourself. wise up girl!

step 1: work less, hold on to your high productivity, paying less taxes and "buying" more leisure time for yourself
step 2: get a life that fully satisfies you. that's the problem as i see it, you are just not happy with your life as it is and believe (wrongly imho) that it's due to high taxation.

people in USA work more than average amount of time, for less than average salary (within the OECD). the willingness of putting huge hours drives other's wages lower... so it wouldn't be antisocial julialg to say "f*ck you" to the labor market and begin to exercise your freedom in terms of how you interact with it.

660: hey, it all sounds good but how can it be done? that's the problem with all this. localizing (i.e. decentralizing) social programs simply creates more overhead, bureaucracy and most likely unfairness.

as a trivial example, wouldn't we be better off with one motor vehicle department rather than 50? why should the speed limit arbitrarily change on the same road for the same conditions when you go over a state line?

there are so many municipalities in new york state alone, that its tough to get an accurate count.

is practicality not an issue?

>> more talk of slavery?

as a descendant of slaves i'll get this one :) oh and hi CC; hope all is well. of course no one is talking about slavery or indentured servitude. (and julia i will not speak for you if you do...i'd like to hear your view).

but try to be fair and see the general idea... we live for 75 years or so and work for most of it. work is this commitment of one's lifetime towards activities for which you get compensated. without regard to politics it's easy to see that as taxes go up you aren't really living and working for yourself; you are living and working for the state. so is that slavery or no? whatever...

if anything it does support support personal liberty. and we haven't even discussed the negative impact confiscatory taxation has on productivity when one removes the natural human incentives to work: survival, enrichment, support of one's *own* family and interests...whatever they may be.

does that make sense?

nope...lets cut to the chase. are you in any way, shape or form living in conditions similar to your descendants who were slaves? or is this more rhetoric and sloganeering?

whoops antecedants.

and..by the way...its not easy to see that as taxes go up you aren't working for yourself. that implies that you get no benefit from the government. absurd. what do you think would happen if 10's of millions of people were suddenly cut off from all funds? can you protect yourself from them? doesn't it occur to you that the limited social net not only protects those who are without the means to support themselves but also protects the rest of us?

and...it sounds from everything that you and julia have done quite well for yourselves despite the removal of natural human incentives. how much more do you think lloyd blankfein would work if he didn't have to pay income taxes?

>> or is this more rhetoric and sloganeering?

yep CC, sloganeering...but not much rhetoric :) i do find it interesting being non-white and being on this side of the conversation.

and i agree with you (i think); my present living conditions have nothing to do with whether what i'm saying has validity or not. just trying to make humor, sorry. but really, if what i'm saying doesn't make sense then how?

cc At what tax rate do you think the "rich" will stop working ..50% 60% 70& 100% When you tax income you are taxing someone life.