The Livmor - impressions and thoughts?

It has potential. Finishes are okay...not as nice as The Kalahari. Lower floors facing FDB are loud and not so nice. Higher floors have nicer views. There will be a church in the beginning which is a wildcard in terms of how that affects living in the building. Again, the prices are just too high. They need to lower to around $450 to $500 psf, in my opinion. Also, new developments will be opening soon creating more inventory. No rush on The Livmor.

I have no idea how relevant this will be to your decision, but I recall awhile back that the blog Manhattan Kids (which is apparently only open by invitation only now) wrote about the developers shady past of another development project.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/30/nyregion/owner-of-collapsed-building-got-city-renovation-deals.html?pagewanted=1

Regardless- since most new construction in this town is built poorly, I would negotiate 5% below whatever prevailing market prices to account for the costs of dealing with poor quality construction and needing to rectify it later on.

I think 5% is conservative. I might negotiate lower than that. I'm sure they won't budge now. But unless you are in a rush, I would hold off.

you should go ahead and buy at the Livmor. I visited this building a week ago and it is awesome! The finishes, the lobby, the parking, the subway on the block, the 2 parks at less than 3 minutes walking, etc... $600 psf is the right price, you will not find anything in the city at $450/500 in the city. Harlen is getting nicer each day, it is a great investment.

uos sounds like a broker. I own a condo in Harlem, and long term I feel Harlem is getting nicer, but when you consider the oversupply of new developments, I expect prices to decline quite a bit in the short/intermediate term. I re-read what I wrote earlier, and I am not sure if I was clear. I feel prices need to come down significantly in Harlem because of the the large number of new condos coming online right now. The discount for poor construction I discussed earlier, was on top of the discount I would expect because of oversupply. I think bronxboy is right that the developers probably won't budge now...but wait 6 months, it might be a very different story. The peak sales season will have ended, quantitative easing just ended last week, the home buyer tax credit will be over soon, there will probably be additional units on the market from other buildings that will be ready to be marketed, and perhaps we might still have an unemployment issue in the market- that is a lot to chew on. Add to that the construction quality (it might look good- but it's likely not). If you don't believe me, make some phone calls to real estate attorneys, roofers and engineering firms- they will tell you about all the business they are getting due to all the new condos that are built like crap. I am not saying don't buy new construction- just understand what you are buying and price that into your offer.

Of course uosguy is a broker. I agree with semerun. Nothing wrong with buying now if that's what you really want. But you will get better deals six months down the line in Harlem.

I live in Harlem and have watched these buildings go up. Believe me, the boards in these buildings will be levying assessments for repairs within six months after the sponsors hand over control of the condo. (BTW, the claims about the high quality construction in the Kalahari are wildly overblown. I know from personal experience.) I wouldn't even think about buying in one of them until after the summer selling season. They'd have to come down at least another 25-30%.

Uosguy is not a broker. I am a private owner in the area of the UOS. I disagree to a large extend to what has been said above. The Livmor is one of the Top 5 building in the lower Harlem. I understand that some of had bad experiences in this neighborhood but you have to admit that FDB looks so much better now than it looked 5 years ago and it will continue improving significantly. As far as the high inventory of condos that will bring prices down, it sounds right in theory but it is very unlikely to happen. On one hand because prices already went down by at least 15 to 20% compared to April 2008 and today Harlem sqf is already the cheapest in Manhattan. On the other hand, a high inventory of condos also means that more middle class people will continue moving into Harlem, spending their money in Harlem which will accelerate the "renaissance" of the area. Just as an example, you all should go visit the City Market supermarket that opened a couple of weeks ago on 118 and FDB (8th av). Its quality is breathtaking. I understand we all have different experiences and different opinions but if you have the chance to buy at the Livmor (or another new construction that you like), I strongly encourage you to do so. The level of amenities for the asking price (in the $580 - $600 range) is great. If you don't buy now, chances are that you will not be able to afford it anymore in 5 years from now. The idea that prices will go down to $500 and/or below is pure imagination or wishful thinking at this point, unless another major financial crisis hits again the economy.

Empty and bankrupt luxury monolith on Fifth and 120th. Another bankrupt building on Lenox and 130th. An empty new development on 123rd between ACP and Lenox. There are more I'm not even mentioning that are practically uninhabited. New developments opening throughout the neighborhood.Quality public schools have not caught up with the development. All mean lower prices in the next six to eight months. Harlem is getting better. Unfortunately, it's growth has been stalled a bit because of the recession. I visited the Livmor. It's an "okay" building. The amenities and finishes are nothing special and as Cherrywood can attest to first hand, some of the recent construction in Harlem has been cheap to shoddy. Also, there is the wildcard of having a church in the building. Will that be good or bad. It's a gamble. Though if you find what you think is right at this time at a price that works for you, go for it.

Just walked by the Livmor. Does not show well on a sunny afternoon. I spent five minutes looking at the building a half hour a go with a friend who is in construction who explained to me all the corners they cut. Look at the unevenness of the exterior brickwork, the metal finishes on the south and east corners of the building, the gaps in the floors of the Juliette balconies (won't even speculate about the quality of the concrete used to construct those balconies) . . . and the list goes on. I suspect the amenities uos1 is making so much of will be drastically cut back once buyers in the building realize how much it's going to cost them to do necessary repairs, or to pay the cost of a lawsuit against the developer. The "middle class" (a euphemism for white people who can't afford to buy downtown) can pay asking prices on these new condos if they want to, but it would be a shame to buy thinking that the only costs you'll incur in the near- to mid-term is for the mortgage and taxes. BTW, we have seen this before. Ask buyers in some of "first wave" condos downtown about the assessments they had to pay once they realized developers had bribed Building Department inspectors to certify that hollow core bathroom doors were solid wood, that electricity and plumbing exceeded code, etc. I've come to the conclusion that developers bank on people making decisions to buy based on emotions instead of rational calculations about the likely direction of the market and the basic quality of the product.

I am not sure how UOS comes to name the Livmore as a top 5 building. What are the 4 others in the top 5? I know the Kalahari is often named as a terrific building- but here we have someone with first hand experience telling us that that the quality of the building is not what is advertised. The problem is not limited to Harlem either- my advice about discounting for construction quality is for virtually every new building in NYC. There have been plenty of articles written about it- even with supposed high end developers with famous names. You can have a great developer, but if your subcontractors cut corners- it could cause all sorts of problems. As I said earlier, don't take my word on the issue (or anyone else on this board)- do some of your own homework and call roofers, engineers, and law firms to confirm. Once you do that, then you have an idea of who is giving quality advice on this board. Just like the SEC was asleep at the wheel with Maddoff, you have the Department of Buildings asleep at the wheel for new construction condos.

I bought for less than $500/sq foot in 2006- and unfortunately I do believe prices will go below what I paid. I am not happy about it, but I also realize it's more of a short to intermediate term issue- and I won't lose sleep over it. Long term, I am very bullish on the future of Harlem, and these short term pricing issues will seem like a distant memory.

I went back to visit the Livmor yesterday. The only problem that I see with this building is that the sponsor claims that there is a Gym, which is true, but there are almost no machines. A Gym with no equipment (only 2 treadmills) is clearly an overstatement! Besides that, the building is awesome, in particular the children room, the common area and the quality/design of the common areas and full time doorman which is a good amenity to have.

usoguy,

If you are not a broker, are you interested in purchasing a unit? Your enthusiasm for the building must be for something. According to Streeteasy, they have one unit in contract since they began marketing the building in January.You should have your pick at your price.

Morningside
Just in case the only fact holding you back is the pace of selling: Livmor is selling out rather fast, just hit 30%. For some reason they are not updating SE.
I do not think it is the best building ever built, but in comparison to other new developments it is a very decent one, and the apt. layouts are certainly some of the best ones.

Question for wee: I am curious. Where did you get the information that the building just hit 30%? Also why would they not update SE? Seems rather counter-intuitive but maybe it is a new sales tactic.

I overheard it while I was waiting for my cinnamon Dolce frapuccino in a nearby Starbucks. Two gentlemen were discussing it with bated breath, both of them wore raincoats and sunglasses, the taller one had a mustache.

If you are not willing to make phone calls you could still find some info on the web, just 2 days ago:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/realestate/residential/better_off_fred_fHlUA89yCFqIk1UcfFIX5K
http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/04/08/harlem_market_heat_check_gold_coast_still_shining.php

I do not know why they do not update SE, but suddenly they did move 7 more apts into "contract" just about when I posted. If you call them you could ask about it.

I checked out the Livmor condos about a month back and I had mixed views of the quality of the finishes.

I liked the living room and bedroom layouts (my personal preference is having a large squarish LR, rather than a long narrow LR, as I like having friends over for parties and watching sports). I also liked the finishes in the bathrooms, the additional sink is a great addition. The kitchen quality left me with a bit more to desire for, didn’t quite like the island+breakfast bar in the 1BR units, I felt they could have just left it as at counter height instead of trying to do both and making it look ugly (but I guess this is fixable).

I liked the common outdoors space but I was a bit concerned about the noise on the lower floors. I could hear the traffic on the FDB, pretty loud and clear, from a unit facing 115th Street.

And yeah, the gym was empty, the broker said they have plans to add two treadmills and a stationary bike with some free weights. They also had a kids play room and some sort of conference room.

And the prices the broker quoted were around $600 psf, a bit unrealistic in this market I thought, especially when we have new inventories hitting the n'hood in the next few months and existing inventory not moving as fast as the developers would like.

My 2 newbie cents !!

Very, very noisy on the lower floors. Finishes are ho hum. They need to drop prices in my opinion. Also the wild card of a church in the building. Bad or good? We don't know.

I think the Livmor is the best of the new constructions on FDB in terms of pricing and location. I thought (more like hoped) prices would go to 500psf along the corridor but it never really happened...prices have stayed slightly above 600psf. Anyone know when the abatement will go into effect?

If you want 500 psf you have to go to 5th on the Park but it sucks.