Downtown Brooklyn vs. Long Island City

My bet is on Downtown Brooklyn. All the infrastructure is already in place.

Agreed on downtown brooklyn. LIC is a little too industrial and could much more easily backslide/fail to materialize.

I was in LIC for the day/evening of July 4th last week. My friend bought at some place called the Gantry. I was able to walk around the neighborhood a bit. From what I could tell, there is a lot of building/planned building going on there. I could see it turning into Hoboken in a decade or so. But as of now, it reminds me of war-torn Beruit. I admit, that's an exaggeration. Still too rough around th edges, though.

I live in Clinton Hill... I don't know that much about Downtown Brooklyn--I always associate it with the Fulton Mall and just a place I go to pay my parking tix--but from what I hear, it'll be a totally different place in a few years. Luxury condos, hotels, high-end retailers, etc. I'm not a big fan of gentrification, but I guess that's progress to some people's eyes.

This is a tough call... I think both nabes will thrive.

Hey #2, what "infrastructure" is already in place? If by that you mean dilapidated buildings and over-extended subway lines, then yeah, you're right.

One more for Downtown Brooklyn.

--It borders affluent and well established neighborhoods (Brooklyn Heights, Boerum Hill, Fort Greene, etc) and is spitting distance to other pricey areas like DUMBO and Cobble Hill.

--Transportation options are superior to LIC.

--5 minutes to lower Manhattan.

--The city is pumping quite a bit of money into the area, lots of $$$ earmarked for physical improvement like landscaping, lighting, sidewalks, parks, etc.

--Insane amount of private development ($3 BILLION on a mile stretch of Flatbush alone, $10 billion overall).

--As mentioned, infrastructure is already in place.

My 2 cents.

Downtown Brooklyn.

I agree with poster #4 about LIC looking "a bit rough" right now, which I'm sure will change, but most of the development there sucks. It's starting to look like downtown Atlanta or Houston, which isn't a good thing.

I had been considering 5th St. Lofts in LIC (actually was in contract there, though nothing was official), but a broker friend of mine convinced me to look at 110 Livingston in Downtown Brooklyn before I signed anything. I changed my mind on the spot. Far superior building, location, amenities.

'Nuff said.

Downtown Brooklyn. No doubt about it.

No brainer. DoBro--see it already has it's very own abbreviated name :)

I think that area doesn't even need 5 years to reach it's potential. it has already arrived.

#7, I am surprised to hear Fort Greene described as 'affluent'. I was walking around north of Fort Greene Park last weekend. While the facade of the buildings did look like they were in pretty good condition, for the most part, the area still seemed on the seedy side. (Garbage, people hanging around on corners, crumbing sidewalks, etc.) Am I mis-judging it? One hour in a neighborhood is probably insufficient to make a critical evaluation.

#17, Fort Greene is (unfortunately?) becoming more and more gentrified, so I hazard to guess it is becoming more and more affluent.

To answer the OPs question: while both neighborhoods are being hyped, DoBro seems to be the one that can actually pull it off. Price per sq ft in LIC is too high for what's (not) there. DoBro is hundreds less p.s.f. for an already established neighborhood. Condos are sprouting up in both places, but DoBro is the one with Trader Joe's coming. The City seems more interested in turning DoBro into a business district. There are a dozen subway lines servicing DoBro. Fulton Mall will become a preeminient shopping destination (or so they say). There's more cultural institutions in DoBro's vicinity. More churches. More schools (perhaps). More of an interesting mix of people in DoBro.

#17,

Agree with your assessment of the neighborhood north of Fort Greene park. Unfortunately, it seems that the nearby housing projects and lack of transit options north of Myrtle have kept that area depressed. It's changing though, albeit slowly--witness the recent spate of development just west of the projects on Flatbush in Downtown.

I was referring to the part of Fort Greene south of the park, say between Dekalb/Willoughby and Atlantic, closer to the heart of Downtown Brooklyn. Completely different vibe, like a 1990's era Park Slope IMO (before Park Slope got the Kennedy clan and turned into the UWS). It's not uber-expensive yet, but the Greene House condos on the south side of the park are trading for $1000psf, and while brownstones are much cheaper than Boerum Hill or Park Slope, it's probably safe to say that whoever can afford $1.5-$2.5 million for a home isn't the struggling artist type.

#18,

Actually, I think the prices for the new luxury condo's in Downtown Brooklyn are in line with the new lux condos in LIC. Units at 110 Livingston, for example, have sold for ~$800/$900psf, as have units at Oro and resales at 53 Boerum Place.

Existing stock of downtown housing, like 96 Schermerhorn, is indeed much cheaper--but you can't really compare new luxury condos with older stock.

The main difference though, as you've pointed out, is that Downtown Brooklyn is already a fully functioning, developed neighborhood that's improving everyday by leaps and bounds (and what you can't get in Downtown yet, you can easily walk 5-10 minutes into Brooklyn Heights, Boerum Hill, etc for), while LIC doesn't even have a proper grocery store yet. I'm certainly not knocking LIC--I have a couple of friends who purchased there who seem happy--but it's at least 5 years behind Downtown Brooklyn for the same price.

Unfortunately, I don't think Fulton Mall is going to become a preeminent shopping district (probably end up with something closer to Herald Square than 5th Avenue), but a huge improvement from the current blah shopping that's there now, especially with the city planned park, the upcoming W hotel, condos, apartments, etc.

School situation is fine, from private Saint Anns in the Heights to the public magnet school at PS261 (apparently one of the best in BK).

And of course, TRADER JOE'S!!

I'd short LIC, long Downtown Brooklyn.

Hasn't LIC been the "next big neighborhood" for that last 10 years?

Downtown Brooklyn will become an extension of Manhattan... the good, the bad and the ugly (but mostly the good).

LIC will probably remain just what it always has been... the next big thing.

Know what I mean?

I will respond in a purely self-serving manner:

I love to ride my bicycle. Downtown Brooklyn and its surrounding vicinity offer much more to see and do. It's a breeze to get into Manhattan via the Brooklyn or Manhattan Bridge. There are bike lanes more or less.

I wouldn't want to be riding around LIC at night.

what's all this talk about trader joe's??!! that would be a coup d'etat for the downtown brooklyn area!

#24, here's a link to an article about Trader Joe's coming to Brooklyn:

http://www.observer.com/2007/its-official-trader-joes-coming-brooklyn

It's technically the northeast corner of Cobble Hill, but very close (a 5 minute walk) from Downtown Brooklyn.

The location's ideal--it's at the nexus of Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill, and Downtown. Should go over like gangbusters.

thanx #25!

from,
#24

p.s. do you live in the area? i'm thinking about moving to downtown blyn. this thread has been helpful.

#24, I live in TriBeCa now, but I grew up in Brooklyn Heights. I go back to the old neighborhood fairly often to see the folks.

They recently bought a condo in Downtown Brooklyn as an investment, so I've kept up with news and developments in the area out of interest (the changes in downtown have been pretty amazing).

We're kinda getting off topic, so if you have any questions/concerns about the nabe, feel free to email me at Streeteasyguy25@yahoo.com.

LIC has been missing those vital services and amenities to push it into another stratosphere. DoBro already has them, with more to come. It will be a real 24-hour, livable downtown of a great American city.

I'd put my money down on Downtown Brooklyn. LIC's not my cup of tea, but some people seem to like the way it's developing (maybe transplants from Houston, #8?).

Luckily, it's not a zero sum game--hope both areas do well.

Downtown BK has the rich history, architecture, and soul that LIC is lacking. Put me down for DoBro :)

I agree with #29... both nabes will come out for the better and the City will benefit. But I think Downtown Brooklyn (DB) will reap (and give back) the better of the rewards. Businesses looking to move out of Manhattan or set up back office operations will take a long hard look at DB rather than Jersey City or Connecticut. DB will attract creative studios such as architects and graphic designers because of the relatively low p.s.f. to set up shop. The 15,000 planned apartments over the next several years will bring in an influx of new residents who will demand (and get) the services and amenities they desire. I can go on and on...

DoBro has more going for it than LIC.

Downtown Brooklyn wins this one hands down.

Considering all the hype about LIC, I'm surprised it hasn't received a single vote.

Here's a vote for LIC. I love the "feel" there and prefer its location to DoBro (note that LIC has a nice short name, too!). Granted, my views are very subjective, though I think the market is reflective of many others' similar views. LIC is more raw and does not have the amenities (or proximity to amenities) as described above for DoBro, though I see this as an opportunity for LIC - it has much more of a clean slate to work with that almost any other "up and coming" neighborhood that I have seen. It is clear that the residential development is finally happening/to a great extent has happened and the stores/commerce will follow to add to a nice array of restaurants/shops that are there now (clearly, supermarket, drugs stores, etc., are needed!). The city is also committed to developing the parks in LIC on the waterfront, Queensboro Plaza, etc. And I ask, can you beat the views for an outer borough? In my opinion, no. Clearly I am outnumbered, though!

They will both be nice places to live/work in 5 years. I hope residents and visitors alike will come to enjoy both neighborhoods in time.

... but as of now, DoBro is a more established nabe.

I'm thinking about buying in LIC, regardless.

what is LIC?

nevermind DoH

Just a quick note. The words affluent or decent cannot be associated with Forte Green as an ex Brooklyn-Tech student I believe I have a great deal of experience with this area. I still remember when the students would leave the school and we would require police escorts to leave the school. The region that is being rebuilt with 3 billion is not going to change the fact that it is a seedy and dangerous neighborhood where local attacks are common. So, the next time someone thinks that the atlantic project in brooklyn is going to be the next big thing should really consider the neighborhood. But, this is the present state of things. I'm sure in the coming years after the completion of the project the area would improve but it is definitely not a pleasurable area to be or live in at the moment.

Brooklyn is stronger... If only for the name... Most people don't know how to get to LIC, but anyone can make it to Atlantic Avenue... The Lords of Flatbush and every New York movie afterwards glorifies Brooklyn and not Queens... Thousands of college grads move to this city every summer... At first the straight ones try to find something on the Upper East Side (because it is seen as "safe") the gay ones shoot for Chelsea or Clinton- the spillover seems to gravitate towards Brooklyn... (Plus the Target is really cool!)
I know, I'll get shot down for dealing in steriotypes.... but remember, steriotypes are usually based in some form of the the truth...

Hey GayBreezyPointFan - I agree that Brooklyn in General is more popular real estate than Queens, but that does not mean Queens is dead by any means. Brooklyn also had to overcome a major stigma from its economically depressed era, which relatively speaking wasn't really that long ago. The mass exodus out of Manhattan, specifically lower Manhattan, was the catalyst for Brooklyn's escalation on the real estate ladder. That being said, it's not that Brooklyn didn't have great living communities before that. And it's the same with Queens. We may not be as 'popular' as Brooklyn, but Queens in general (not just LIC) has a lot to offer. There are plenty of neighborhoods that have affordable housing with great communities and amenities.

I live in LIC and agree with the commentary here that the amenities are not really in line with asking price/SF for the lux new condos, and also agree that movement is a lot slower than the hype would lead you to believe. BUT the change that's happening is overall positive and it's good actually that the pace is nice and slow. If LIC remains 'the next big thing' for the next 10 years actually, as a current resident, I am more than fine with that. I will lament about the lack of grocery store until we have one, but every neighborhood is different and has to overcome unique obstacles. DUMBO also cried for a grocery store for a long time, and still people paid crazy money to live there. Astoria has about 500 grocery stores and a lower asking $/SF than LIC (yes LIC is mostly new condos and that's why).

All of that being said - Downtown Brooklyn does win if you're looking for amenities. But LIC is not a neighborhood about amenities. It's a transitioning industrial neighborhood and a thriving arts community. Someday the amenities will meet the needs of the new and growing residential community. So for now I have to lug my groceries...even with all my own complaining, it's not really a big deal.