building at 1280 Fifth Avenue

I think I already saw a few moves ( http://www.divinemoving.com ) booked for 1280 Fifth...
It's funny, I live in the upper west and I cut to the west thru 97th street so I drive on fifth daily and watch the building come to life!
Soon I'll need to watch a different site as this one is near its final days.

Insanely overpriced.

I heard its opening late 2010, possibly early 2011.

The prices at 1280 fifth avenue are way over priced. its in harlem and they have no units in contract.

In East Harlem, yes with park views, not many services (stores or restaurants) nearby, in a recession and one that includes the European investor, to ask $1.500 psf is certifiably insane. But there are suckers out there that just might mortgage their futures on it. At least that's what the developers hope.

bronxboy, have you seen it? I heard its very nice (ehh kitchen), better than 5oP, not sure about 111CPN. agreed on the services/neighborhood - sounds like the question is, whats the nicest building in the best location of east harlem worth..

I'm sure it's been nicely done and it has Central Park views. But it's where it is during an economic downturn. 111CPN got their prices because it went up during the heart of the Harlem boom. No one can resell those apartments now for anything close to what they paid. It's worth more than the average Harlem Condo that has gone up in Harlem the past two years but nothing close to the ridiculous prices psf they are asking now...in my opinion.

Shoudl be worth $900-$1000 / SQFT

These are 116 units and all but 9 are sold.
Once the building is occupied, delis and stores will follow. The new Target, Costco, BestBuy and Marshals just moved a few blocks away.
The rest will follow quickly.

According to Streeteasy, nine units are on the market. None have sold yet. They'll sit for a long time.

Streeteasy Experts: What does everyone think of this building ? The prices are so high for the neighborhood, but the building is quite nice. Hard to believe they can get $3 million for this block. Anyone ????

i

Buyers will need cash, patience, and vision. Within 3-7 years this investment may prove to be a steal. Just a few blocks down on 5th Ave there are some beautiful buildings (ie. 1200 5th Ave. on 101st St) that have been rehabilitated and successful. I think the penthouse at 1200 5th Ave. sold for $15 million.

1200 is at the corner of 102nd street and those 8 blocks make a world of difference in day to day living. Don't think it is really comparable. Beautiful apartments at 1280. North facing units will be impossible to sell. Anyone else have opinion on what the price per square foot should be ? It seems high for the current marketplace and locale.

I guess there really are people stupid enough to pay *millions* to live in East Harlem.

I actually visited the models at 1280 yesterday. The finishes are very nice, floor layouts are good with the 2 br plus home office very nicely done. However the "value" in the building is 100% based on Central Park views and only a percentage of the units actually have the direct-park facing views. The others face the surrounding tall apartment buildings to the North and South (did not see East facing units). We paid $900/sq ft for another highend Harlem condo 2 1/2 years ago. Not sure if these are worth much more than that but the environment with the new African History Museum will create excitement and ongoing free marketing for the development

Tim,

2 1/2 years ago was a world away. That was before everything changed in the fall of 2008. It will be a very long time before we see that world of inflated real estate again. For what you paid, you can deduct about $200 psf today as opposed to two and half years ago.

last non-penthouse sale at 111 CPN was 10B--traded appx 950 psf--this bldg will sit for a long time at current prices--note not ONE apt yet in contract--woops

this building is now allowing pre-closing occupancy. thoughts?

Great. Now all they have to do is lower their prices to around $600 psf and they will sell.

we purchased 3 bed on park, concerned about aspects of area but view and overall building won us over.

Looks like they are combining 2brs as 4brs, problems @ current prices for 1280? shocking

I know. Love the apartments, but they are priced too high. We would bite if they were a bit lower.

CSun- When did you sign?

Can you buy these units out of foreclosure yet?

is it in 4clsr?

No, but you better be getting a Wall St. Bonus to even consider living in East Harlem at 1280 Fifth near no services.

Does anyone have any news on this building. Streeteasy doesn't list any units as "in contract" or "sold", yet I believe they have sold several... Prices seem Way too high to me...

Not only are the prices very high. The common charges & taxes are very high as well. The views from most apartments are mediocre at best.

I went for a 1 bedroom in 1280. UWS27, i received a good deal. did you place offer?

Taxes are very low. There is a 421a abatement in place

NYC68, facing the park? what was the ppsqft?

NYC68,

If you signed a contract to buy at 1280 Fifth, why isn't that information posted on SE? Given the rate of (no) sales at the property, if the brokers had even one signed contract, you can be sure they'd have posted it by now. I, for one, am skeptical about your claim to have signed a contract at such a "good deal."

I dont think so. Multiple contracts have been signed. Just not showing up in SE.

I may be wrong, but I thought that SE relies on conscientious brokers to plug in information about signed contracts. That information is not public, like the info about closed sales available on ACRIS. I can't see why SE would refuse to update information about signed contracts if brokers provided it. Maybe the moderator of the SE can explain how that works.

I call stinky BS on Yola. Its in borkers best interest to state "in contract" on their own websites and on SE.

I am aware of multiple contracts signed - brokers may be waiting for a certain level before posting

We are in contract for a 2 bedroom with home office and absolutely love it. They are not withholding information from ACRIS. It's just that none of the units have closed yet. If you are interested in the building and want to put in an offer, the sales office is very open with giving you exactly what units are in contract for per sq ft.

Its in borkers best interest to state "in contract" on their own websites and on SE. Again. Its utter BS for them to withold such information.

Im not sure how the posting works, but my husband and I have visited the property 3 or 4 times and loved it.We found the sales staff to be very helpful and forthcoming about the units under contract (I believe there are four?). We were going to make an offer on a 2 bdr with den largely because it seemed like they were willing to negotiate and the posters above seem happy with their purchase prices. When we were about to make offer they told us with the other unit of the same model was under contract for. We then realized that we were sooo far apart on our thinking about prices, that there was no point in putting in an offer.

I was very upset, because I loved the building, and our backup was 1485 Fifth. ( We know that we want to be in East Harlem b/c of the proximity to Metro North station). We are now having cold feet about 1485, so have decided to rent in the area for a bit and see how things pan out.

I was also interested in this building in the past, but they are asking way too much. I also liked the building a lot. I have decided to rent too & wait another year. It is an excellent building, but really overpriced.

As of 4-19-11, according to the on-site sales staff, 4 units are occupied, 7 have contracts and 4 units are in contract negotiations.

We went to see the building last week and were impressed by how nice it is. Some of the floor plans work better that others. The two bedroom with den was also our favorite. Nevertheless, it is still ghost-town there with only a few apartments occupied. They have not met the AG required 15% minimum sales yet (about 17 apartments) that's why no one was able to close as of now. They allowed pre-closing move-ins. They are also not approved for the tax abatement yet. Prices were dropped about 4% for many units last week. Based on our RE attorney's and broker's advice we decided to wait and see what develops over the next year or so. It is simply too much risk for us to take into uncharted territory. We also checked what happened further up 5th Avenue at Fifth on the Park (read up on it here on SE) and got scared.

prices are still WAY to high, that is a good move

east harlem is going nowhere fast

Anyone know if 11B is in contract?

Fail - East Harlem is gentrifying fast but at the LOW end and on the rental side. I.e. people who would have done Wburg 5 years ago and EVil 10 ago. This and 5thonthePark are way too high end.

Lots of cons to this building and few pros. Lots of small units not facing the park - likely to end up as rentals. Poor neighborhood. Low ceilings, PTAC units in every window. Hard to see families wanting to live here - although the best bargains are probably combination apartments.

I wonder how 1212 Fifth will go - its about to be released, and those 9 blocks make all the difference...

Until they face reality and lower prices, no one will bite but suckers.

A couple more tidbits that I learned about the building:
- Strook, Strook and Lavin prepared the offering plan. They are known to make them tough and extensive.
- The sponsor keeps control of the condo board for the first five years and then it remains optional to admit others.
- The condo comprises of 3 units: the museum, the residential tower and the parking garage.
- Electrical bills are estimated at about $.20 per sf. Gas and heat are included in the common charges.

For newbies to new developments:
- After the sponsor sells 15% of the units he can close on apartments as he has fulfilled the AG's minimum requirements. If the building sells too slowly, he can then also decide to turn the remaining units into rentals which makes any purchased apartment tough to resell because financing will be very difficult and values usually decrease.
- Until at least 51% of the units are sold, financing is usually limited to a "preferred lender". This might result in unfavorable rates because there is no competition. Lenders also sometimes pull out of a building leaving purchasers high and dry. If asking prices are way above bank-appraised values, much larger down payments might be required.
- In new condo developments common charges can increase dramatically if the sponsor low-balled them to attract buyers. In an relatively empty building, the sponsor can also decide to cut back on services as he is in control of the board.
- Sometimes tax abatements are not granted if the developer did not meet deadlines for filing the required paperwork. Tax abatements are phased out in steps over their duration.
- Any construction deficiencies usually manifest themselves over the first couple of years. Fixing them can be disruptive (i.e. leaking windows).
- With very few apartments occupied in the building, you will not know who your neighbors will be. If they become mostly renters, it will change the "feel" of the building.

In conclusion: This a beautiful building in an interesting part of town. You have the Park at your door step and are close to subways. Yet, you have to be slightly adventurou and have deep pockets to absorb potential monthly cost increases. You should also be able to "survive" a difficult resell of the apartment, possibly at a substantial loss.
If all of that is no problem for you, then you should go for it.

Great post Saabster, I completely agree with your analysis. I would just like to add a bit more from my experience with the building. We talked to their preferred broker. After one conversation with him, I immediately felt uncomfortable. He was incredibly patronizing and was so eager to close " a deal" that he would overlook basic consumer protections to do so. Whereas I told him quite clearly that my husband and I are both willing to provide full documentation of our incomes, he tried to get me to apply for a no-doc loan because that "would be faster." When I said I was in no rush, and wanted the most favorable rate and terms which are generally not offered with "no-doc" loans, he gave me a BS speech about how the lowest rate wasn't always the best one and that I shouldn't believe what I read in the papers. I didnt think this reflected well on the building and I told them. I think they have now added HSBC as a preferred lender.

I think that the building was largely privately financed. When we told them that the building was out of our budget, they offered to bridge the gap with a loan from the sponsor, which we declined.

I predict that, unless they drop the prices substantially these will turn rental. Nothwithstanding the high quality of the building, there are simply not enough people looking to spend north of 1.5M who want to live in East Harlem without a view (in most cases). At much less than that (20% or more less), it becomes a much more reasonable proposition.

I too, am interested to see how 1212 will o.

"This a beautiful building in an interesting part of town."

LOL that's the diplomatic way of putting it.

Here's the reality: It's an overpriced building in a shitty part of town.

Add to that the fact that there is a New York state jail a mere 150 feet from the building on 110th street which is not going anywhere else anytime soon

Although there may be some good news on the jail - Cuomo is considering closing it. That should help this building if it does occur

overpriced

I'm thinking about purchasing a flat here because of Central Park. Apparently, the building will begin closings in the summer, I'm curious to see the actual prices. I found this link on the jail.

http://bestplaces.nydailynews.com/stories/closer-flips-and-splits-new-yorks-real-estate-community-1

Perhaps one of the most ill conceived developments in NYC. Go into a lower socio-economic area, build luxury housing & charge luxury prices. If they'd lower the prices by like 50%, maybe some units would sell.

wife and i are considering this building, does anyone know what this closing means?

"10/28/2010 #MUS (Commercial Unit) $43,750,000*"

probably the purchase for the museum.

50% sounds about right, dwell. This place will go down as the best rental option in E Harlem in 2012/2013.

Agree, brooksvale.

"Once the building is occupied, delis and stores will follow. The new Target, Costco, BestBuy and Marshals just moved a few blocks away."

Oh yes, Target, Costco, BestBuy and Marshals are types of stores where $2m-$3m buyers love to shop! It's brilliant!!

Found this blurb on the jail...

http://bestplaces.nydailynews.com/stories/closer-flips-and-splits-new-yorks-real-estate-community-1

Daily News:

"Rumors are swirling about the Lincoln Correctional Facility, a minimum-security prison at 31-33 110th St. near Lenox Ave. From what we hear, a private school is interested in the property. So are developers who think it would provide great lofts overlooking Central Park. And someone said it could be a wonderful site for a museum or cultural institution. Right now we hear it is officially owned by the state of New York, which, as we know, could use some revenue from a real estate deal.

We hear the number of guards is almost double the number of inmates, some of whom work at jobs outside the facility. The structure was built in 1914 as the Young Women's Hebrew Association, a home for female Jewish immigrants. The state bought it in 1976 for $550,000. It's worth a good deal more today, as in at least 10 times that."

The building is gorgeous inside--the apartments are fantastic. I have looked at two apartments and am considering a purchase. Also, FYI many (15-20) are in contract--they cannot post details until the offering plan is effective. The rooftop pool is fantastic and the gym is first rate. It is enough to make a long time Carnegie Hiller seriously consider a move to this new building.

"they cannot post details until the offering plan is effective."

People keep saying that, and I keep calling bullshit.

There are fabulous views on south west corner, 25 year tax abatement. My husband and I are seriously considering a combination unit in this building. It's worth looking into. It will take a long time for the neighborhood to get better, but we feel that we would like living there and this will be an wise investment in the long run for us should we choose to move forward.

these units are overpriced for the location, it will take 20 years for the neighborhood to get better and has a low ceiling given all the projects around east harlem i.e. 1 block east of this building.

If you are planning to stay for at least a decade, you might...maybe, show a profit when you resell. Otherwise, forget it at these starting prices.

Does anyone have any idea how much these are selling for (as several have contracts out)? What ppsf?

I find it hard to believe people are buying at these prices.

Quick Information about This Place:

1) No doubt, the building is gorgeous and high-end quality.
2) Price range PSF 900-1300+ from studio-4 bedrooms
3) Common charges range from 1000-1700+
4) 10 Year 421-A Tax Abatement
5) Outdoor pool – close during winter
6) All Studio apartments are staring at a big and ugly orange building taller than this luxury apartment. I can imagine the people from the ugly building looking in your window laughing at you for buying an overpriced unit when they have the better view.

Neighborhood:
1) Lincoln Correctional Facility in proximity.

2) North of Central Park does not attract the same type of crowd as the middle and south end. I actually don’t like going there although it’s very pretty with the pond full of algae.

3) Series of grant houses in proximity so no matter how much you try to clean up the buildings around here, you cannot get away from the grant house crowd flooding the streets.

4) The crowd in this area is loud and they love to yell a lot. More yelling during the summer time.

5) Lots of annoying motorcycles that are incredibly loud with piercing noise…one just went by as I am writing this part. :)

6) The neighborhood is infested with bed-bugs. You will see lots of furniture on the street which gives the little bloodsuckers to travel to a different building.

7) There are no pretty stores around here since people that can afford the pretty stores typically don’t reside in this area, which is fine.

In conclusion, I highly suggest that people thinking about buying a unit in this place to do their research because they will be living in an ivory tower in the middle of ghetto-hood.

I wonder how long they will be able to hold their prices high.

I live next door at 1255 Fifth Avenue and I disagree with the post above about our neighborhood. We have raised our daugther here and find that the positives far outweigh the negtatives. The northeast corner of the park is beautiful and the Central Park Conservancy gives it alot of attention. There is a also a new supermarket opening called NYC Market at 110th and Madison. Come visit the neighborhood and see for yourself.

Neighbor12 - You are definitely entitled to your own subjective opinion. I was simply stating verifiable facts as I have lived on 110th street for 5 years. You can verify the bed-bug infestations if you're a good researcher, noise-level, observe the crowd on the top of the park and the streets, and so on.

That's great that there is another supermarket opening around here. I hope that is not used as a significant factor to justify the price tag of the 1280 Fifth units. I fall into a newly renovated grocery store as I climb out of the 2/3 train exit on 111th/Lenox. There is another new and nice grocery store around 113th and Madison.

To add to the mix, there is a fire station a few blocks away on Fifth Avenue (114-113st @ 5th Ave) so that's a constant loud siren through-out the day and NIGHT!

Don't get me wrong, I do like my ghetto-hood, but I do invite others to do a very good research before buying an overpriced unit in 1280 Fifth. It would also serve the potential buyers well to hang out in the park all day so that they can get a feel of this hood.

If the price comes down to $590-625 PSF max, I would say, "Take it"! At that point, there would be a fire sale in 1485 Fifth Avenue, another luxury building with an indoor pool.

Harlem73 - 1485 Fifth is our back-up too, but we are having second thoughts about the area. May I ask why you are having cold feet purchasing a unit there?

i recently signed a contract at 1280. i viewed 1485 too but preferred Central Park location. i appreciated the quality of construction, architecture and layout of the 2 bedroom with home office. the area does need more retail and i certainly factored that into my offer price. i also felt more comfortable after checking seamless web and seeing that many restaurants from the Upper East Side and Upper West Side deliver there. There is a supermarket opening right behind the building and when it opens, the Museum will have a restaurant. my attorney confirmed that the tax benefits were approved.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/dcce/20101006/12/real_estate/122/deals_active/2513911

We bought and have moved in. We love the building and all of its amenities, having Central Park at our front door. There are lots of nice people and families in the neighbourhood. We got a bargain for a Fifth Avenue address!

NewYorker08--re: 1485 We had cold feet mostly around the building retaining its value, less about the quality of the building itself. The declaration that it is over 60% sold is simply not true, which concerned us given the length of time the building has been on the market. Yes, it was marketed during the downturn--but other buildings in Harlem have sold out during this time. We live here now (we are renting from an owner) and really like the building. The doorman are fantastic, amenites are great, and we've had no problem with the unit itself. But I think that the prices are inevitably going to go down further. We re paying $3500 in rent for a unit that is selling for over a million dollars. And thats the at-market rent-- Its really works for us as a rental, but I just cant justify the numbers from a purchase perspective...

Harlem73--Thanks for the information. I get the same impression that it is overpriced for the area. It seems that potential buyers feel the same way and they pull out.

How did you get the information that they are not even 60% sold? Halstead keeps insisting that they are 60% sold.

@slt Which unit did you buy?

I am in contract at 1280. It is much nicer (and better value, though admittedly worse location) than 1212, which I also looked at.

Which apartments did you look at? What are you in contract for? I have also looked at 1280 and 1212 and felt comparing size for size 1212 had better floor plans. 1280 I thought had better bathrooms but otherwise felt 1212 was better overall, though did not justify the disproportionate cost. In terms of value for money I agree 1280 trumps 1212, but that said the asking prices for 1212 are not much different from what was being asked at 1280 a year ago.

When are the first closings anticipated to occur?

How many additional units need to sell for the plan to go effective? Once this number is reached, will the apartments listed here as no longer offered for sale show up in the "In Contract" list? Why is it that everything surrounding the sales at this building is so secretive?

>>Skeeter23 - Why is it that everything surrounding the sales at this building is so secretive?

I worry those are signs of things to come as seems a pattern with new deveopments, especially if in less desirable location. Read thread on the Azure - the first 100 posts seem to be in same direction as 1280 is going. http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/14968-azure-intelligence-new-construction-on-91st-1st I suspect in 12 months time such questions will still be asked.

Upper Carnegie Hill? Really? Brokers trying to make East Harlem sound better. Yes, there's a difference between 5th and 109th and Madison and 109th, but this seems a little over the top, creating a new neighborhood.

1280 is NICE. Azure is not on CP. The closings will start as soon as the plan goes effective--I hear 2 more apts have to sell.

Re 1212: looked at open models (saw three apts). It has a much less open and a darker feel than 1280, though the finishes (floors, bathrooms, kitchen) are top-quality and beautiful. Kitchen in 1280 better because despite high end everything, 1212 kitchen is still a dark NYC galley. Park views from 1280 are better, but agree that both buildings have significantly less desireable apts w/ no park views. At least 1280's "bad views" are of light and sky and rooftops, while 1212's are of the hulking mt sinai buidlings which at least in rear feel an airshaft away.

Re realtors inventing "Upper Carnegie Hill"--think SoHo, NoHo, NoLiTa, and, come to think of it, Carnegie Hill...

Its not upper Carnegie Hill, though, because its well past where the hill is (was). Its flat.

lrc: My analogy with Azure is because it seems to be the same story with most of these new developments when one looks at the streeteasy threads. Fifth on the Park not doing too good either. 1212 we have to wait and see.

Although, you may hear there are two more apartments to sell, such statements were heard one or two years before at several new developments that still have only closed a handful of apartments or remain largely unoccupied. It has been on market for over a year now and no contracts closed. That is to me the concern with several of these new developments. 1280 may be on CP but it is still in Harlem and located atop a museum.

Time will tell, but wont surprise me if this thread is still going two years later and many units remain unsold. If I were a betting man, I would bet on 1212 doing better than 1280, and that we will see a susbtantial part of 1280 ultimately going to rentals.

Yeah, 5thonthePark is a good example. Started at 1100 PSF, but actual sales averaged more like 750, and now the "ask" is 700. With still like 30 units for sale and always 2-3 for rent by owner.

1280 is in Harlem when it comes to getting CABS or delivery, trust me.

"...Carnegie Hill is a neighborhood within the Upper East Side, in the borough of Manhattan in New York City. Its boundaries extend from 86th Street on the south to 96th Street to the north, between Fifth Avenue (Central Park) on the west and Third Avenue on the east, and up to 98th Street from Fifth to Park avenues. The neighborhood is part of Manhattan Community Board 8. Carnegie Hill is widely considered one of the most prestigious residential areas of the Upper East Side...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Hill

I am not so sure 1212 is going to do so well at $1500 psf either- also in harlem just 7 blocks south of 1280

So it looks like 15 units are in contract (i.e. about 10% of total), including the 8BC combo that was hyped on Curbed. Seems to be going slowly?

Wondering what kind of discounts to ask people are getting / they are giving? Where do you all think prices will end up.... $1000 / sq ft, 900, 800? How do we comp this? Top recent sales in SoHa 118 were around $850/sq ft - so perhaps that is a floor price for sales here, with park-view units getting more...? There are always a handful of folks prepared to pay "fool" prices for the best units they fall in love with - question is, what is the depth of that pool...

I think 110 CPN is a better comp, though entirely imperfect.

Rob360>>>I am not so sure 1212 is going to do so well at $1500 psf either- also in harlem just 7 blocks south of 1280

Seven blocks can make a big difference. Afterall 94th steeet is seven blocks south of 1212 fifth avenue. and we cant say there is no difference between 94th and 101st. Just trying catching a cab outside 1280 and then trying catching one outside 1212 - that alone can tell you the difference.

I used their in contract prices and 111 CPN as guides and then I made adjustments for my view of the market and purchasing early in the sales process to establish my bottom line.

Intersting article in WSJ today about the developments in upper fifth avenue

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204618704576643022038133998.html?mod=WSJ_NY_RealEstate_LEFTTopStories

BHS was fired last night as the brokers for 1280 Fifth, but the sponsor is simply shooting the messenger. Just look at what happened at the other new development disaster nearby, Azure on East 91st. After 4 years on the market Azure is between 30% and 40% sold. A failure by any measure. But at least Azure has finally reduced prices and are negotiating on top of that. They didn't sell before because they WERE ASKING TOO MUCH MONEY! Case Closed. No amount of marketing is going to change that and Azure is a textbook case. Core (the new brokers at 1280) will have the same result unless prices are significantly lowered. This building, though beautiful in some respects has low ceilings and most of the apartments have mediocre views at best. The rooftop outdoor pool is kind of useless as it is available just a few months a year and is more of a lap pool. The area is East Harlem plain and simple and the forest of public housing units a block away will never be going anywhere.

^^^Amen. Its EAST HARLEM.

jason, is there a point you are making re east vs central vs west??
pls elucidate for the unknowing

New restaurants (lexington social at 104/lex and agua frwsca at 117/3rd) might be signs of things to come in east harlem. Agree that projects on madison are a problem but if cpn develops this can still be a great building. Apartments are very nice--in my opinion much nicer than 1212. Will see if new broker can do anything. Some of those in contract have moved in. Others have contingencies like rt to withdraw if they don't sell x% by a certain date.