About Toren

I guess that the actual interior area is only about 75% of the floor plan (or less). For instance, the unit is 1000 sf in the floor plan but the actual interior area is only 750 sf. If taking into this discount, the price per sf will be about $800 per sf. It sounds that the common charge is high and the price per sf is also quite high. I am considering this new building. Could anyone may share with your view. Many thanks!

$800/sq ft, are you out of your mind?

oro sells around 600/sqft, and forte closed around 500/sqft.
You tell me why are you willing to pay 800/sqft?

Indeed, Toren is selling at around $600 /sqft. Such $800 /sqft is based on the actual area (i.e. after the 25% discount on the area shown in the floor plan (marketing material?!). I am curious whether Toren is overpriced if taking into a ratio of actual to disclosed area. As I have not been at ORO and Forte. I have no idea whether the similar ratio (< 75%) is applied to those buildings. If so, Toren is priced in line with the current market. Otherwise, it sounds that it is overpriced.

I have visited all of these buildings. Oro and Toren have much much much better interiors than Forte. Forte is not in the same league.

Between Toren and Oro, I'd have to say it's a matter of taste. Toren uses a darker color palate (dark wood cabinets and doors) vs Oro (all white everything). Quality wise, again, very close. Toren's kitchens are a bit more advanced/space saving with more advanced cupboards, etc.

However, Toren layouts are smaller. As you have noticed, they exaggerate their sq ft more than most other condos.

I think both Oro and Toren are hard to price due to their location. Their location is a BIG deterrent to buyers because it is right next to so much traffic, causing poor air quality and lots of extra noise.

Add in the high common charges, I think prices are finally coming down to where they should have been in the first place.

"Their location is a BIG deterrent to buyers because it is right next to so much traffic, causing poor air quality and lots of extra noise."

Actually,t he traffic is a positive. It helps drown out the noise from what's on the other side of you, some of the biggest projects in the city.

$800 psf to be literally adjacent to the projects.... not good.

No wonder it bombed.

200K (24%) price drop. Wow!

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/487035-condo-150-myrtle-ave-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn

Maybe it's no surprise.

kaboom!

Hi Jabra, you mentioned, "However, Toren layouts are smaller. As you have noticed, they exaggerate their sq ft more than most other condos."

That's means the actual size is substantially smaller than the listed floor area?
Do you know what's the approximate ratio of actual to listed floor area for Oro and Forte?
For Toren, do you think the recent adjusted price is still overpriced?

I am concerned about how many area I will be getting!!!! @@"

I've also visited both Oro and Toren. Oro for their better units is selling between 630 and 650/sqf. I feel that Toren is much better quality though. Bathrooms have floor to ceiling tiles in Toren, not in Oro. If you close the windows at Toren, there's virtually no noise from the street, contrary to Oro. Kitchens at Oro are all GE, which is nice but not top notch. Toren has Electrolux and a more upscale feel to it. It's now also getting the supermarket. Regarding the recent chops: Toren had to come down to be competitive with Oro. At he current price I think they are. The best units got less of a chop. For instance the 06 line has brooklyn views only and faces the citypoint site. Also the layout is weird. The 01 and 03 lines only got 10-15% chop, simply because of the more economic floorplans and manhattan views. I'm over Oro but still considering Toren...

Skir, since you have visited both Oro and Toren, may I ask if you think that Toren's actual size is relatively smaller than listed as compared to Oro? Thx for your sharing!

Yes I think that's fair to say. But at the end of the day it's about how you feel about the space. To me Toren feels more high-end and better constructed then Oro.Toren's amenities are just great (pool with skylight, library, great gym). And it's two blocks closer to the park and the subway and has a huge common outdoor space. On the flipside Oro's views are still a little better then Toren's. However, there are three empty lots right next to Oro (east,north,northwest) which could have a huge impact on both Brooklyn and midtown views.

Yes I think that's fair to say. But at the end of the day it's about how you feel about the space. - agreed.

I also agreed that Toren has better finish, and feels more high-end and better constructed.

Oro has the view tho.

Skir, thx for your reply!
Considering that there are many projects under development nearby, expecting ? % additional price cut?

dewyagi~ Thx for your feedback too!

The traffic, the noise, the pollution...I guess that's why Toren has designd for residents not to open the windows too often! Toren will be surrounded by other new buildings, base on the cost of the price, high costs of maintenance, plus the upcoming competitions in the neighborhood, rental return is really low! Therefore, I suspect most buyers are users!

As for my case, the price matters most! Hope I can find a good deal with sufficient space! :)

Whether the building would be able to sell is a big question.

I really like the fact it's pushing fresh air to the unit, but still concerned about the window won't open big.

Common charge is actually ok, given the 25 year 421A

But space is a problem for Toren.

is electricity included in the common charges, given the cogen plant?

still overpriced...don't buy until closer to $500/sqft

$500 psf listed, or $500 psf when you factor in the incorrect square footage.

Yes the 25-year 421A is a big plus. Oro only has 15 years. I did the math - assuming taxes are about $900 per month the extra 10 years is worth over $60K is today's dollars on a 2BR . This already takes into account higher maintenance.

TO 499_and_rising
No, electricity is not included in the common charge :(

> the extra 10 years is worth over $60K is today's dollars on a 2BR

Of course, most of these places padded the price probably more than that because of it. And on a resale 20 years later, you don't get it back.

It's better you talk to people who actually LIVE in the building rather than the negative speculators who live on this board. Hang outside the building and ask - many of the people here are nice and will talk about it with prospective buyers.

Toren has the better finishes, amenities, slightly better location, sexier building. Oro's rooms are bigger, and closet space is better but I was severely turned off by the finishes in kitchen and bathroom. Toren is a much cleaner look. Square footage in apts is NOT grossly exaggerated...under 10% off what is stated on the floorplan is normal for new construction (mine was 20 sqft off, for those curious). You DON'T hear noise from the projects..I find all of the talk and concern about them quite amusing. It's as if people expect a constant roar of gunshots, music and screaming to come from there. Not true. The windows at Oro and Toren are quite good at masking the sound of traffic from Flatbush. Biggest complaint about noise has been the recent construction on Myrtle & Flatbush - everyone who lives in Avalon, Toren and Oro has complained to 311 about it. Windows don't open much but you do get a surprising amount of air in (coming from someone who likes to have the windows open most of the time). Pollution concerns in NYC? Are you serious? At least it's not LA..

Common charges aren't that bad, and I noticed Oro lowered their common charges by about 50%...

I heard through someone who just bought in Oro, they lowered the common charges recently to make sales attractive.
Toren's common chargers are much higher, but they do have 421A.
Oro, the lower floors were noisy when you open the window, Toren the way its constructed, for some reason it was not quieter when you open the windows. Toren's finish is nicer just better feel throughout the building. I also like the out door space area at Toren, its' like having a park in the middle of a congested area.

To sundae,

Thx very much for your sharing. :)

Since Toren is located on the busy traffic Flatbush Avenue, quite some noise if windows are opened?
I used to live in highrise surrounded with flyovers...situated on a very high floor, the noise on the road passing by in the middle of the night was disturbing!

About space issue, paying for how much per real squarefoot is definitelyh most buyer's concern. I guess I am ready to check that in detail when visitng, thx again. Another reason being people moving from Manhattan to Brooklyn is to find a bigger place to live!

To Looking555,

Thanks for your feedback. =)

Totally agree Toren's common charges are very high!
Will check out the outdoor space area when visiting, but isn't Prospect Park the best place to be during weekend? XD

>

>but isn't Prospect Park the best place to be during weekend?

Or rather Fort Greene park??

Oro didn't lower common charges by 50% but 15%

Sundae are you saying you live in Toren? I totally see you point on the finishes and bathroom at Oro...

Circlesky,
Prospect Park is great, yes nice place on weekends.
But Toren is closer to the promenade and the Bridge Park, about 10 blocks. Walkable.
What I mean is the outdoor space at Toren is like having a backyard, sort of. It's two floors of outdoor space.

Also on my post before, I meant to say, when you open the windows at Toren, its quieter, it has to do with the way the building is constructed, I did this at both Oro and Toren.

These buildings with lot of amenities will cost you in common charges. Oro had their common charges lowered, but you know that will increase in a year. So then Toren's common charge seems not that bad in long run if you factor in the tax abatement for 25 years( as to 15 at Oro), if you are looking in that area. And the building design is stunning, iconic.

ANyway this is what I was thinking...

I just heard from the sales agent, after the slash, Toren's price is firm as is.

"It's better you talk to people who actually LIVE in the building rather than the negative speculators who live on this board. Hang outside the building and ask - many of the people here are nice and will talk about it with prospective buyers."

Yes, it there is one thing we've learned, its that folks who bought in and have a vested interest in prices remaining high give only qualified, unbiased information on that building... particularly when their name is Junkman.

Funny.

To ALL above, thanks for participating in the discussion.

I checked the latest zesimate (market value)of this 2 bedroom which is only USD540,500 as at May19, 2010:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/150-Myrtle-Ave-1706-Brooklyn-NY-11201/89074616_zpid/

Despite the 24% slash in price, the above indication shows the worth as at to date, and realistically affects % of mortgage general individual can be subject to, and how much overstatement the listing price deviates from the current Market price.

Some objective observations:
1) I believe that Toren physically is attractive
2) For sure rental return is unattractive subject to its high common charges + new vancanies in the neighbourhood
3) The noise needs to be tested on site
4) Actual space definitely needs to be checked on site

Toren can stay firm on the price but have to wait until the economy picks up while global economy is tumbling.
In that case, I definitely need to check out 500 4th Avenue, The Arglye, Oro, Forte and some other condos in Williamsburg, Fort Greene, Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope as well since more price changes appear lately! =)

I saw some of those smaller constructions on 4th Ave,
I worry about the quality of construction.

Junkman couldn't buy in the building due to the recession and is currently posting on Streeteasy under another moniker criticizing Toren (funny how people change).

Anyway, I am a big fan of other areas of Brooklyn, and this building isn't for everybody. But for me, the location, size, cost, etc of this apt at Toren was the right fit at this point in my life.

Just FYI, Forte is sold out long ago.

The Arglye -> too far, at least for me, location is even worse than that of Toren & Oro

Oro -> honestly, finish sux. And there's no roof acess/garden, no children's play room and is very next to many busy roads (not very walkable if u have kids).

"Junkman couldn't buy in the building due to the recession and is currently posting on Streeteasy under another moniker criticizing Toren (funny how people change)."

Which one?

He was such a shill before.

My husband and I went through a similar conundrum between the Oro and the Toren, eventually the two started melding in our minds into the "Toro" and the "Oren". After some consideration we were swayed by the 25 year tax abatement and the sales momentum the Toren is enjoying. Other considerations for us were it's slightly closer to public transportation, and it's a green building, on track to be Gold LEED certified.

But our broker actually gave us the best advice, "you'll be living there for awhile, where do you want to wake up?" and put that way the answer was unequivocal. More details on our decision making process: http://www.joshandmarie.us/2010/04/18/nesting-v-the-oren-or-the-toro/

Hi Chai, thanks so much for dropping by and share your comments and latest findings with us! Congrats for finding your home as well! BTW, I left u some messages thru Twitter, hope u find it & ttyl, cheers! :)

They're both in the ghetto. There's no way I'd buy a condo in a neighborhood where I'd be afraid to walk outside at night. No thanks. For a few extra dollars, you can buy in a safer neighborhood of Brooklyn.

Bob_d,
Im not afraid to walk there at night?

The area has changed a lot in last two years, and will continue to change-there's new shopping mall going up near by , and NYU is coming to that area, as well as couple of grocery stores, Sheraton is building a hotel, all the residential buildngs going up will eventually add to that area. NYT just did a story on upscale stores are coming to Brooklyn, Cobble Hill area, and its a walking distance to that.

I agree wth Chai's comments..
Toren is a better investment in long term, unique looking building, just felt better constructed than Oro.

welcome to the neighborhood :)

Hi Bob_d --- wow said with a lot of conviction there. I encourage you to open your mind, you might be surprised. Well established neighborhoods doesn't always mean crime free. Boerum Hill -- a neighborhood that often gets those extra few dollars of yours just had two shootings (that's two more than Downtown Brooklyn) one of those tragic victims was shot AND stabbed. Geebus

http://spotcrime.com/crimealert/10460044-68fef355a4ca9ed72314b75788d8d917
http://spotcrime.com/crimealert/10460019-e2d565bec80f7b256c7a70e9f9c9c840

Being a pioneer has its benefits. It's worked out pretty well for us in the past, and this may be the best adventure yet! I've blogged some of our greatest hits on pioneering: http://www.joshandmarie.us/2010/05/20/pioneers/ it does require a taste for the road less taken, but I highly recommend it.

Whatever... when people walk out of the subway and see housing project residents staring at them, they will not buy there. The area will not be gentrified. Bad investment.

Buy south of Atlantic Avenue, or in Williamsburg (which has a bunch of new condo towers going up).

If you want to hope for gentrification, I think that 8th ave north of central park has a better chance of being gentrified than downtown Brooklyn. But I still wouldn't buy there either--too many poor people milling around the neighborhood.

Having a little trouble understanding your investment analysis... Williamsburg has its own issues with all this supply hitting the market.

This particular point in time is probably a bad time to buy in Williamsburg if you plan on selling in a year. As you correctly point out, there are a lot of units to be sold at Northside Piers 2 an The Edge. And there's no need to rush in there, it will take a long time to sell all those condos.

But in the long run, Williamsburg is a SAFE neighborhood with no ghetto people walking around, and it even has a cool cachet about it, and I think the future of Williamsburg as one of Brooklyn's most desirable neighborhoods is pretty secure.

I really don't see downtown across the street from massively huge housing projects ever being a desirable neighborhood.

Of course, no part of Brooklyn will will never be as desirable as the good areas of Manhattan.

"The area has changed a lot in last two years, and will continue to change-there's new shopping mall going up near by , and NYU is coming to that area, as well as couple of grocery stores, Sheraton is building a hotel, all the residential buildngs going up will eventually add to that area. NYT just did a story on upscale stores are coming to Brooklyn, Cobble Hill area, and its a walking distance to that"

Red Herring.

Looking, all true, but not really relevant. You're talking what can be blocks and blocks away.

We're talking about the projects ACROSS THE STREET. What you can walk to is in no way going to define your neighborhoor anywhere near what is RIGHT OUTSIDE YOUR DOOR.

You can put up anything you want 5 blocks away... the projects are your neighbor and will define the neighborhood for you more than anything else.

" NYT just did a story on upscale stores are coming to Brooklyn, Cobble Hill area, and its a walking distance to that. "

Again, looking at what is 10 blocks away when your direct neighbor is the ultimate neighborhood-killer is a bit insane.

Like it or not, the neighborhood, and very likely the economy, will only get better. The nearby projects are no news, or, maybe you think the projects are expanding?

According to Streeteasy, both Toren and Oro are selling at, on average, $720+ psf. Some units at Toren were even sold higher than listing recently (#1505 for example). I agree it's not a good neighborhood for families with children, but it defenitely is attractive to many young professionals. If Avalon can rent at those prices, so can Toren/ Oro owners.

By the way, Flatbush avenue streetscape is the most recent awarded contract. The construction is taking off this month and will be completed in approximately 2 years.
http://www.nycedc.com/PROJECTSOPPORTUNITIES/RFPSRFQSRFEIS/Pages/rfpindex.aspx

Flatbush avenue in 2012 will look something like this
http://www.dbpartnership.org/utils/imgshow.aspx?id=43

I would like it just fine if the neighborhood got better. I get no joy out of seeing people get ripped off who bought there. But the reality is that housing projects are forever, and the ratio of housing project people to upper middle class people is just too great for this neighborhood to get better. Just the opposite, there will probably be "white flight" in a few years.

People said the exact same thing about Dumbo just 10 years ago. And look where that neighborhood is right now. Manhattan prices for the better apts. Fact of the matter is that DoBro is really close to FiDi so I agree, it's an attractive spot for young professionals that want more value for their money, just one subway stop away. Fort Greene park is very nice and just two blocks away - spent some time there the past weekend.

"Like it or not, the neighborhood, and very likely the economy, will only get better. The nearby projects are no news, or, maybe you think the projects are expanding?"

You are contradicting yourself.

The economy will get better, sure. The projects will always be projects. Gentrification won't undo projects.

At least some neighborhoods can create buffers from projects, with a less good section. Buyers here are unfortunately living IN THAT SECTION.

The economy won't make the projects go away.

Nor will fancy mockups.

> People said the exact same thing about Dumbo just 10 years ago.

No, they didn't. DUMBO isn't next to the projects. There is an ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD buffer, Vinegar Hill. Which, btw, is still signficantly cheaper than DUMBO. BTW, people say "it" about a lot of neighborhoods, many of which still suck.

DUMBO sold well. 99 gold, a block from the projects FAILED and went rental.

You're proving the opposite case!

BTW, I just checked the video from bkapt, thx so much!
Just wondering what will be the highrise and the "3 level" buildings right next to Toren????
Are they Commercial? Residential? or others????

The CityPoint is definitely gonna blocked a significant part of Toren's view...

> You're proving the opposite case!
The point is that neighborhoods DO change. It's hard to tell how and when but the signs are good.

CityPoint will be kittycorner from Toren, so it won't block too much other than the one or two lines that have a glorious view of Fulton Mall, and even then, I think I'd rather see CityPoint. Most units also have a view up Flatbush, so the entire thing would not be obscured.

The 3 level building is supposed to be artistic office space according to an Avalon broker.

Heavy sarcasm aside, there are some great neighborhoods with projects. The UWS has many projects and low income housing locations winding through the UWS in the 80s and 90s. I don't think it has stopped this neighborhood from thriving or being a desirable place to live. Is it as swank as the UWS in the 60s and low 70s? No, but still a nice place to live and quite frankly, it was nice to have people from different backgrounds and communities around when I lived there. West Chelsea also has quite a few. DoBro will never be the UWS, and it's definitely not for everyone, but projects alone wouldn't prevent it from being homey or an interesting neighborhood.

"A doorman co-op in DUMBO has become the mugging capital of brownstone Brooklyn - 10 residents have been held up by thugs since August, neighbors said."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/regional/item_M08lOWx3opztVpL6x0Ty2M;jsessionid=8884ABABC2F90395B07CA1B7A06D88BE

DUMBO, DoBro, I'm staying away from housing projects.

"My husband and I went through a similar conundrum between the Oro and the Toren, eventually the two started melding in our minds into the "Toro" and the "Oren". "

hahahaha i like that!

my thots: oro feels and is HUGE inside in comparison to same # bedroom apts at Oro, bigger rooms, living space, and the views of manhattan/brooklyn also give it a larger "feel"

Toren's finishes are far superior than Oro, muuuuuch superior

Gym/pool/etc.: tie on both. Honestly, i doubt many people take advantage of those; i almost wish they would cut down on those to lower commmon charges; dont buy it for the pool- on both buildings it's only open a few hours a day, when lifeguard is present (another reason for high maintenance!), and it is only 1-2 lanes for swiming laps on a short 20foot pool! that's like 2 strokes for me and i have to turn around... why bother putting a pool in then??

Parking: Toren has it in the building which is a big plus

The oro folks seemed very confident about their pricing; i gave them a soft offer 2 months ago, putting the apt price close to where toren just cut their 2bdrms to today, and they laughed at me and wished me good luck. maybe oro will call me back!

what line at what floor did you look at? they were pretty open for negotiation a month ago...

> You're proving the opposite case!

> The point is that neighborhoods DO change. It's hard to tell how and when but the signs are good.

Yes, and some change for the worse.

The the point you keep missing is that buildings next to the projects will always be challenged.

That is NOT a good sign... not sure why you are inferring it is.

"That is NOT a good sign... not sure why you are inferring it is."

I don't think anyone thinks the projects are one of the attractions of the neighborhood. People just don't see them as a huge deterrent. There are many perfectly fine neighborhoods with projects in them. At the moment, the rest of Downtown Brooklyn is growing and starting to have its own identity. Some people will like it, some won't.

> People just don't see them as a huge deterrent.

Agreed... and thats a huge mistake. Thats the point.

> At the moment, the rest of Downtown Brooklyn is growing and starting
> to have its own identity.

Its got some time, but I'm generally in agreement.

And there are MUCH better parts of Downtown Brooklyn, not next to the projects.

> There are many perfectly fine neighborhoods with projects in them.

Again, we're not talking about a neighborhood. Yes, you can have projects and do ok (but not great, see above examples).

What you keep ignoring is... the issue is a specific couple of buildings next to the projects.
You are talking about what might be the worst spot in a "fine" neightborhood...

Relative to most other areas of DoBro, you gain proximity to Fort Greene, retain proximity to all transportation, but pay in being a block from the projects. Frankly that's a trade-off I can lve with. I'm not saying proximity to the projects is a good thing, but I am saying its offset by other advantages.

Other areas of DoBro have their own disadvantages (e.g. being close to the BHOD).

Once they fix-up Flatbush and put in the planted median, I think it will do a lot to cure the image issues in some people's minds.

Projects didn't stop them from building luxury condos around 92nd / 1st or in any number of locations on the UWS.

"Relative to most other areas of DoBro, you gain proximity to Fort Greene, retain proximity to all transportation, but pay in being a block from the projects. "

There are other areas that have those pros without living next to the projects. If its a price tradeoff, understood... but I personally wouldn't made that tradeoff, and certainly wouldn't try and use the word "investment" in doing so.

"Other areas of DoBro have their own disadvantages (e.g. being close to the BHOD)."

Difference is, the BHOD folks don't come out at night.... ;-) But, yes, its not a positive.

"Projects didn't stop them from building luxury condos around 92nd / 1st or in any number of locations on the UWS. "

Yes, but the ones next to the projects suffer in comparison to the ones that aren't. And UWS is a much better neighborhood to start.

"Difference is, the BHOD folks don't come out at night.... ;-) But, yes, its not a positive."

That is harsh, and frankly unfounded. The incidence of violent crime around BHOD is actually very high. It is much lower around the Oro/Avalon/Toren core. A major thoroughfare and the naerby police station actually make the area as safe as any in the city.

Of course, if you have statistics to prove otherwise (and not just innuendo and assumption), would love to see it.

"Yes, but the ones next to the projects suffer in comparison to the ones that aren't. And UWS is a much better neighborhood to start."

Um..recently sure. It certainly wasn't always what it is now. It's had its low points as well, especially that area in the 80s and 90s.

Also I'd hate to point this out, but most of the crime in DoBro isn't in the projects, or that close to it (recently there has been one exception that was obviously a personal crime). A lot of it in the area has been in Boerum Hill or closer to that side. Thank you for trying to save our lost souls, but the truth is I don't have the same abhorrence for poor people. I also do not assume that people who live there are out to ruin their own neighborhood, in fact, to the contrary, they have a vibrant community.

Also if you want to get technical, there's a good chance if the neighborhood keeps going as it has been that there will be more buildings buffering Toren and Oro from the projects in the near future. (There was a plan for one next to Toren that fell through, but it may come back), and there's the community center in between. We get it, you don't like projects, but it's really not the same issue for everyone.

"Um..recently sure. It certainly wasn't always what it is now. It's had its low points as well, especially that area in the 80s and 90s. "

Because of the projects!

Exactly as I said!

"Also I'd hate to point this out, but most of the crime in DoBro isn't in the projects, or that close to it (recently there has been one exception that was obviously a personal crime). A lot of it in the area has been in Boerum Hill or closer to that side."

Uh, because there aren't projects near BH? Seriously, do you own a map?

> We get it, you don't like projects, but it's really not the same issue for everyone.

If this is about picking a neighborhood due to quality and potential, it certainly is.
Yes, to certain people it matters less.

Instead, we've got folks arguing it won't matter to the neighborhood. If value of what you buy doesn't matter, if the people int he neighborhood doesn't matter, sure.

But there is a HUGE difference between "there is no effect" and "I can put up with the effect"

If there was a crime-spree in Boreum Hill, no doubt it came from the Gowanus Houses. Yet another reason to avoid projects

All you have to do is look at what housing costs in various neighborhoods, and you can see that hardly anyone wants to live near poor people. If you don't mind it, then great, save a lot of money and buy yourself huge pad in Bedford Stuyvesant for the same price as a tiny studio in Manhattan. That's what I would do if I were Rambo.

"But there is a HUGE difference between "there is no effect" and "I can put up with the effect"

What exactly do you have to put up with other than ugly brick buildings? If there is no threat to you, why do you care? The buildings aren't touching you, so concerns over poor city maintenance leading to pest infestation isn't a concern, and actually, I wish nicer buildings would put the kind of care into their gardens that these residents too.

Also,I do own a map of Brooklyn, my point was simply some projects have more crime than others. The ones near Toren and Oro, for the moment anyway, are pretty peaceful. The only reason I personally would ever be concerned about lower income areas would be crime. As long as people are pleasant, I don't care how much money they have. You don't like projects or what they stand for, you would never live there, so you don't understand why other people would and think they are worth less for that reason. You've made your point. You don't want to understand where others are coming from. Why are you posting the same thing repeatedly on bored for people who have obviously taken these things into account?

*board sorry and "so concerns over poor city maintenance aren't an issue" - I shouldn't post for at least a couple hours after happy hour

Let's not mince words, you're complaining about poor black people lowering property values and basically saying they're the root of all crime in the city.

Fine nyguy, if you'd like to describe the situation that way, then I'm sure that if you look at the prices of real estate in New York City, you will see that white people are willing to pay a HUGE premium to live near other white people and not next to any black people.

If you think that situation is going to go away in the future because white people will become less concerned about the race of their neighbors (maybe because older "racist" New Yorkers will die off), then it would be an excellent investment to purchase in neighborhoods like DoBro or Harlem.

I don't think I have anything else to add to this topic; there's no point to just saying the same thing again, and maybe you shouldn't base a huge decision such as where to purchase your home based on some anonymous internet poster anyway.

"maybe you shouldn't base a huge decision such as where to purchase your home based on some anonymous internet poster anyway"

Smartest comment uttered on this board today (maybe ever).

Ok everyone, calm down.

I think everyone has valid points, there are just two different topics being disucssed:

1) One side is talking about personal willingness to live next to projects
2) The other side is talking about macro level property value trends.

These are two different things. So really, ya'll don't need to be fighting.

<<>>

Have y'all seen this? How desperate are they to sell right now? Are these people for real residents, or just actors?

http://mylifeattoren.com/

"Let's not mince words, you're complaining about poor black people lowering property values and basically saying they're the root of all crime in the city."

No, I'm talking about ALL poor people. Don't be a racist.
If you don't think poverty breeds crime, then you are ignorant.

> What exactly do you have to put up with other than ugly brick buildings? If there is no threat to you, why do you
> care? The buildings aren't touching you, so concerns over poor city maintenance leading to pest infestation isn't
> a concern, and actually, I wish nicer buildings would put the kind of care into their gardens that these residents
> too.

Its not just the buildings themselves and the crime... its the services and the property values and everything else that comes with it.

Some of us prefer to live in better neighborhoods. If you can't think of a reason to live in a better neighborhood, then I really can't help you.

> You don't like projects or what they stand for, you would never live there, so you don't understand why other
> people would and think they are worth less for that reason. You've made your point.

No, I don't think they are worth less... its a fact. Projects lower property values (or keep them down AOTBE) and inhibit influx of quality services.

> You don't want to understand where others are coming from.
No, you're simply missing the point. I've said several times that yes, some people might want to make that tradeoff, that is their choice. But when it comes to investment and expecting certain things to happen, we're not talking about preference anymore, we're talking about folks just misunderstanding the effect.

If someone says "there are projects and I don't care", great. But we have folks trying to argue that there will be gentrification similar to comparative neighborhoods, blocks, and that is just counter to what actually happens.

> Why are you posting the same thing repeatedly on bored for people who have obviously
> taken these things into account?

I'm not. I'm NOT talking to the people who factor it in and are ok with it. I'm talking to folks who are trying to pretend the effect isn't there.

HUGE difference.

"maybe you shouldn't base a huge decision such as where to purchase your home based on some anonymous internet poster anyway"

> Smartest comment uttered on this board today (maybe ever).

Yes, better to base them off one's own personal uninformed opinion.
;-)

"Fine nyguy, if you'd like to describe the situation that way, then I'm sure that if you look at the prices of real estate in New York City, you will see that white people are willing to pay a HUGE premium to live near other white people and not next to any black people.

If you think that situation is going to go away in the future because white people will become less concerned about the race of their neighbors (maybe because older "racist" New Yorkers will die off), then it would be an excellent investment to purchase in neighborhoods like DoBro or Harlem."

Well put and to the point. And, unfortunately, its the former... and if that was the only impact, fine... but it also means an impact on services and such. Poor black folk don't get the same access to produce or quality supermarkets, for instance (and thats just one clear example, we're talking about an overall effect on services). There is an impact beyond just who lives in the buildings.

And, in the end, folks are talking about gentrification.

The ones not getting it are the ones who are NOT ok with the current scenario, they're just looking to buy and wait for it to change and get all white.

Those are the folks who my posts were addressed to.

"Yes, better to base them off one's own personal uninformed opinion.
;-)"

And what makes you more informed than the average poster? From your comments it's hard to tell where it is that you're adding value, so I would say that your opinion is just as informed as anyone elses.

"All you have to do is look at what housing costs in various neighborhoods, and you can see that hardly anyone wants to live near poor people. If you don't mind it, then great, save a lot of money and buy yourself huge pad in Bedford Stuyvesant for the same price as a tiny studio in Manhattan. That's what I would do if I were Rambo."

Funny, but true. If the tradeoff works for you, go for it. But don't take the tradeoff expecting to get the best of both worlds for no additional cost. Its cheaper for a reason.

Alright people, calm down. We've all made our points about the 'hood.

Now, what do these videos say about Toren's desperation to sell?

Are these people actually residents buyers, or actors?

http://mylifeattoren.com/

so noone over 12 lives in the building?

To Jabra,

I checked that 22nd floor people are real owners of the house based on the 'names'.
But I dunno if they are actors or not.... :P
Guess you are likely to be invited for the next phase shooting!

Wow lots of mud slinging on this board. It's disappointing and disheartening to see. I'm not even sure what the issues are, but commend the valiant efforts of Jabra. So, I'll just go out on a limb here and say not everyone who bought at Toren is 12 -- both my husband and I are older, so that's at least two people. My husband WAS an actor -- but alas he doesn't appear on http://mylifeattoren.com/ though both he and I would happily promote the place if they asked us to. On the house.

As for "somewhereelse" - yes we don't mind living next to the poor people. We're NYU grads who spent our happy college years in the village often in buildings which believe it or not -- were in the village next to poor people. And we had a great time. After college my husband moved to the LES where *gulp* there's yet MORE poor people, and his old tenement building is now going for more per square foot than either he or I can now afford. So I guess you can say we make a habit of going where NYU (read: http://www.nyu.edu/nyu2031/nyuinnyc/growth/the-plan.php#Remote/Downtown-Brooklyn) and poor people go. And it's worked out quite well.

Chai, unless you were living in Alphabet City and not the Village, then where weren't any housing projects across the street. I doubt you hung out on Avenue D.

All the people in the videos bought

Hi Bob_d, it was my husband who lived in the LES -- and while you're right he didn't live in the projects, he lived close. And yes we hang out in Alphabet City, and we enjoy it. We walked through the projects by the Toren yesterday and we enjoyed that too. I understand your fears though, I have them too. Where've you decided to buy? I hope it works out for you and feel safe. I guess we just like the funkiness, be it the LES, Alphabet City, Williamsburg or now DoBro. :)

To Chai,
I wish you guys were being part of the video, I'm Serious! =D
BTW, when r u guys moving in?
I really look forward checking out Toren & the neighborhood SOON! ^___^

Hi Circlesky! Out official closing date is June 21st but we're hoping to get in sooner :) Until then we'll be spending our weekends checking out all Brooklyn has to offer. I can barely contain myself!

Hey, I sent the video site in to Curbed, and they quoted me!

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/06/01/toren_residents_inspire_toren_drinking_game_play_along.php#more

> And it's worked out quite well

In a bubble, everybody looks like a genius.

Toren owners -- I've made a group on facebook so we can discuss etc,.. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=132386213445649&v=wall

So we can discuss, get ourselves organized, and of course show and (do) tell! ;)

Please join.

there's also a yahoo group you can join. we already have over 20 units participating. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toren-owners/

Affordable and Chai,

I think facebook group is better? Yahoo group is an email group and there will be lot of emails flying due to large number of units in Toren.

Don't give me this crap. You've made quite enough references to "those people." And how would you even know the difference from those who life in public housing and those who live in the luxury condos? All of you complaining about it you've obviously used race to distinguish who lives in the projects and who lives in the condos. You've talked around it enough it's obvious to anyone reading this so stop pretending that it has nothing to do with the race of the people who live nearby.

I'm not the one who's bitching about the area and it's proximity to housing projects.

Late on board ... just toured Toren yesterday and found this discussion -- very interesting!

My conlcusion: No, thanks. (Haven't seen Oro but I guess it's similar as said above about "Toro" -- you hippies ate too much sushi and picked up Japanese now!)

Before accusing me as racist though, here are two facts to keep in mind: 1) I am Asian; 2) I volunteer weekly to tutor and coach at homeless shelters in Harlem, Bed-Stuy and Williamsburg. I have no problem at all with poor and predominantly colored people (which myself is).

This being said, I will not put my real estate money at Toren or Oro or renting Avalon and the top reason is location -- let's recite "location, location, location!". Location bothers me more than other things such as disinterested sale staff and misleading advertising.

Location concerns property value the most. These days, a lot of young hippies don't really care about preserving value of their real property. In my opinion, this is the main reason for condo booms around various housing projects in the city. Project will always be project -- and I've been into quite a few, into the homes not just walking outside like a Toren buyer said above. While I have tremendous empathy for the poor people living there (hence the weekly volunteering), my head is clear enough to draw the line for my personal life and my investment. When I bought the studio on Broadway/72nd seven years ago, many of my friend called me stupid for not using the money for bigger space in Harlem of Park West Village (next to the UWS project mentioned by nogo123 above). After the exciting ride of 2008-2009, when I revisited real estate market this summer (b/c I finally need a bigger space than a 500-sf studio), I feel vindicated for my decision. Then I saw the same kind of "decision" being made right here on this board. I used "decision" here, because for buyers like Chai and affordable, that's what it is; for me, from my experience, I would have called it "mistake" though.

Social problems, like poverty, drug and crime, are much more complicated than the hippie buyers think and will not be resolved by putting a couple of glassy towers next to housing projects. One Toren resident said above that she and her husband/boyfriend walked through the projects and "enjoyed" it. I don't know what they actually enjoyed in that experience or if it ever came to their hipster mind whether the project residents reciprocally enjoyed their visit, or intrusion, more appropriately. It's people's home, not a petting zoo! Most of us who can afford internet, laptop, and are literate and free enough to comment on this board have very little idea about the real life in the project. Inside, it is worse than you think. It's sad but just fact.

Probably nobody will read this comment this late but I just want to voice out after reading such a long and fiery thread. I may sound contradictory until you understand that caring about social justice/fairness should be separated from taking care of your own life and money. If you let emotion or illusion get in the way, ... I guess you buy Toren. Let's hope you didn't pay before the price drop and remember to turn left whenever you go out of the white-washed lobby. Once advice for you: volunteer at the city shelters (homeless, domestic violence, etc.; call 311; there are many) and get to know the poor people whom you found "friendly and nice". They are, indeed, mostly. Then, open your heart and listen to what they think about the eco-friendly tower you live in.

lutrasi-

If your mantra of “location, location, location” were meant to be taken so literally, all of us well-to-do New Yorkers (excuse me, “hippies”) would be living in a glass bubble somewhere on the Upper West Side, while the have-nots would be cannibalizing each other in the crack ghetto that would be the rest of New York. But real estate markets are more complex than that, and surely you are capable of recognizing that the descriptor “location” entails more than proximity to the housing projects.

My wife and I searched high and low for the best real estate opportunities in Brooklyn, and nowhere did we find better value than we have at the Toren. At the moment, Toren is among the most state-of-the-art condo buildings in the city, with a spectacular view of Manhattan, and quick access to nearly every subway. We have a gym, a pool, a garage, and oh yes, an apartment that looks like it’s worth a million bucks. (we only paid around half that). The only potential downside is that the neighborhood has historically been somewhat blighted.

I have news for you, Lutrasi. This is how gentrification happens. Ten years ago, this neighborhood was a disaster area. But anyone with half a brain can smell the changes coming. The city has committed tens of millions of dollars to beautifying Flatbush Ave., Willoughby St., and City Point, and the construction is already underway. Organizations like the Downtown Brooklyn Partnership and local BIDs are working every day to ensure continued economic development in the area surrounding the Toren. And to put it bluntly, the more they succeed, the more our investment is worth.

Don’t think you’re fooling anyone when you attempt to say in the same breath that 1) Toren is a bad investment and 2) you’re not a racist. Yes, we have housing projects across the street from us. I have no doubt they are populated with hard-working, law-abiding citizens exactly like myself. The only difference I can see between us is skin pigmentation and level of income. But that doesn’t bother me, and it certainly is no reason to pass up an opportunity like the Toren. This is the classic example of a sound investment - I have clearly defined downside and unlimited upside. You, on the other hand, have practically no upside potential. I wish you luck living like a squirrel in your place at Broadway and 72nd, while enjoying marginal appreciation on your investment.

Best regards,

Slim Shylock
(investment banker-turned-lawyer and sometime “hipster”)

^------ Wow, you have some serious low self-esteem issues, but to equate and label and libel people as racists because they don't like or want to live next door to some crappy and ugly city projects is retarded.

I don't want to live next door to a trailer park that has a majority of poor whites, but I suppose that would make me a racist too? You're pathetic and obviously a broker at the Toren.