Private Outdoor Space vs Street Level Living

here's another

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/520122-coop-265-east-7th-street-east-village-new-york

The cons:
1) Lack of light
2) Street noise
3) Low ceilings
4) Often overheated in winter (sometimes necessary to get upper floors to a comfortable temperature)
5) RODENTS

Much as I'd love a backyard where I could have trees and a real garden, I'd only consider it if the apartment were one full floor above ground level and had stairs leading down to the garden. Otherwise, give me a set-back terrace, roof deck, or (non-falling-down) balcony any day.

i would consider the place on E 5 because all of your windows face your private outdoor space.

the second place, not.

the biggest obstacle with these place is that some of them are a few steps below street level. i would not buy one of those for anything. no matter how you look at it, you're living in a basement.

Well, this won't directly answer your question but it is some good insight. In both of these examples, the outdoor space dwarfs the amount of indoor space. And considering that you can expect to get, at most, 6 usable months of that space a year, you have to ask yourself it is worth it. If you can create another room outside that is legal and livable (a rarity) then maybe it would be worth it.

A lot of people are hesitant to live in 1st floor apartments just because you are pretty much always going to have your blinds drawn so people walking down the street cannot look in. Then there is a potential lack of light and, if you are in a subterranean apartment, the potential for floods.

Outdoor space is one of those things that everyone wants, but rarely gets used. In my personal opinion, unless you are a gardener who is really going to use every bit of that garden, you should go with a 2nd floor apartment with a fire escape.

(Matthew Russell - Brown Harris Stevens)

I view indoor space at a 50% premium or more over outdoor space. Better to have 800SF interior and 400SF outdoor space than the other way around right. You can't sleep in a tent in your garden. You can't put your computer out there. Outdoor space is a luxury.

The Evil apartments you linked put a huge premium on their outdoor space. People don't live in Manhattan to have a garden, they live here for work/play and proximity to things. If they need a garden, they are better off on Long Island or Queens.

"In my personal opinion, unless you are a gardener who is really going to use every bit of that garden, you should go with a 2nd floor apartment with a fire escape."

What does a fire escape have to do with anything?

glamma - outdoor space absolutely kicks ass but i doubt I would consider living in a garden level apt. I looked at many but couldn't get past the feeling of being down in a pit where everyone has a front row seat to my weenie roast. Much prefer the air above, on a roof. Then you get into things like skylights, sun and all the stuff that flies as opposed to scurries.

"Much prefer the air above, on a roof. Then you get into things like skylights, sun and all the stuff that flies as opposed to scurries."

Word.

Garden-level apartments are on the front lines and first to be visited by anything and everything that scurries in on four, six, eight, or a dozen legs.

pplayer - my computer and I work on my terrace, amid the occasional flurry of red finches. It is possible. You should see my tan.

keep in mind this is NYC, not california.
1) That outdoor space will not be usable for 1/2 the year (at best).
2) if you live near the water or in a windy spot, you'll find that the windy blows all sorts of crap (literally) all over your stuff.

It's better on paper than in real execution. I had a balcony and said never again.

hmm "balcony" sorry : (

How often you can use the outdoor space depends on location and exposure. In a past apartment, I had a fourth-floor, rear-facing balcony with unobstructed southern exposure all day long. You could sit out there from March through November, sometimes December, provided the sun was out with no more than a long-sleeve shirt required.

I actually used the balcony most in spring and fall. Even under an umbrella, it was oppressively hot in summer.

I built a luge track for my 4yr old during the olympics.

glamma, once you lived with outdoor space, you cannot do without it. As for it being used "only" 6 months a year - that depends on the year and many other things. Nothing, I mean nothing beats being outside in Manhattan. Private outdoor space is priceless.

Outside is great, but being outside in some of those garden apartments with limited light except for when sun is overhead, etc.

As someone noted, set back terraces awesome. But some of the ground floor outdoor space to me is one step above an alley.

P.S. Public roofs and other public outdoor spaces are not good for anything but tanning (on a good day, and with your fellow dwellers right next to you; eeech!).

I own a ground floor and cellar duplex apartment. I keep it clean and have routine preventive maintenance visits from the exterminator. That said- in 4+ years, I haven't had any problems with anything crawling or scurrying. Various upstairs neighbors (up to the top floor) that are not as clean have complained of both crawling and scurrying issues.

Oh, and because I live in an area with low buildings- I also get lots and lots of sunlight. Even my cellar space is bright and airy on a sunny day.

Generally speaking the cons others have mentioned will apply in most situations....but you have to judge each situation on it's own.

I have a ground floor apt with a decent size fenced in patio/deck. It's about 600 sq ft and the apt is about 750 sq ft. I disagree with the statement that it is only usable 6 months of the year. I use it pretty much year round. Obviously, not much in Jan and Feb but definitely into Dec and and as early as March. Just having the door open to the patio gives the apt an entirely different feeling.

I think the biggest thing is the street facing apts. I have no problem with ground floor apts if they are in the back. Mine is in the back and as quiet as can be.

Glam,
Could not live w/o outdoor space.
Could never do the bottom floor. Hate rodents and bars on the windows.
Public roof is good if it has a pool.
I would trade a lot for good outdoor space.

yes i didn't seriously consider it because of the rats/roaches issue alone. another con that someone mentioned is the "going down to the basement" feeling when you get home if it's garden level, which is depressing. however another pro would be no downstairs neighbors so you can make more noise. i guess the most ideal is a bottom 2 duplex, or a second floor with stairs down to the backyard - my friend rented on of those on east 3rd street and it was AWESOME. to be clear i am not looking or shopping, just wondering what others thought of this.

I think it really depends on the place/building. Like I said, I am on the ground floor and there is no basement like feeling. Brownstones across the way so I can see the sky and get light. No pest problems but that is because I have a great super. Building is always spotless.

Outdoor space should be the only time to consider a ground floor apartment. And it would have to be quite special.
Regardless, with or without,as mentioned, rodents are a serious concern as well. Extra concerns with potential flooding as well.

There are buildings with a stoop up front, which is huge because it gets the windows a little above peeping in... better than being right at ground level...

but, because of the elevation moving toward the backyard, the backyard doesn't need steps down. To me thats 100x better. Sucks to be right at street level.

Saw a lot of these in the E 50s.

Having the outdoor space is great, but I couldn't get over the loss of privacy as people walk past your apartment, and you get the added pleasure of hearing what they say as well. IMHO, when you try to sell, I think more people would view this as a negative.

We live in a gnd floor duplex w patio in harlem. Its totally freaking great overall. Setback from the sidewalk so there is some privqcyw. The streetlevel door enters dirwectly into our living room. Our bedroom is in the b ack upstairs so its pretty quiet. We were insistent on getting priv. Outdoor space and try to utilize it as much as possible which has been at least a couple times a week for the past three months.
Def. Have been some bugs, hard to say if it was an abnormal amt. Only 1 live roach in 5 months but some ant issues dwn stairs. Dwnstairs is much colder bc furnace is upstairs which is bad in winter but good in summer. Single zone heating but we'll get that fixed.

Our outdoor space is private from next door n eighbors but def not the ones above us.

"We live in a gnd floor duplex w patio in harlem."

You're braver than I am, living street-level in Harlem.

I have lived in both a garden apt and one with a private roofdeck. I will always regret moving out of the one with the roofdeck. It was incredible for entertaining in the summer. My current place has a garden and even though only I have access to it its significantly less private. I also don't like the upkeep. I would say a roofdeck is still a huge plus for me, and a garden is a minus, for the upkeep, light, bugs, and overheating issues.

I also have a ground floor duplex with patio in Harlem..When I signed on the dotted line 5 years ago- you needed to be brave to do that,today...not so much. I live on what was one of the worst blocks in the 30th Precinct- there was a reason why my property taxes were set at $3/month. It's entirely different now. NYCMatt- your perception is dated.

There was a time when a backyard with patio in the Village, albeit with access to 14th street, was considered a major liability. And I'm not talking about within the past 25 years...not ancient history. We very well be thinking similar reservations about Harlem are equally absurd very soon.

I lived in first floor rear apartment, aka "the cave".it didn't have outdoor space but I guarantee no outdoor paradise this side of the gardens of Versailles or maybe Hampton Court (watching "The Tudors") would have compensated for the 24 hour gloom in this apartment.

A terrace would have been nice to have (balcony not so much, can't grill on it) since I have friends who are allergic to cats and they could be entertained their without sufferance. But I couldn't justify to myself paying for, or comprising on my indoor space, space...that would only be used part year...I hate cold.

Matt we were the victims of crime recently. Somebody ne stole a pot or mums off of our stoop.

Glamma: I would never live in a ground floor apartment (again), with or without a garden. I think you leave too much to sheer luck.

I have one friend who called me in a panic at seeing a RAT in her kitchen in the upper level of a UWS garden duplex.

I have twice seen mice running around when dining in a restaurant garden, one in Midtown West and the other in Morningside Heights.

My friend lived on the second floor of a duplex and did not have bug issues, but the ground floor duplex had a revolving door of tenants because nobody could handle the bug/rodent problems.

On the other hand, I have another friend who lives on a ground floor garden duplex who claims she's never seen a bug or rodent. I have lived in twice in a ground floor apartment about half a floor above street level and did not have bug issues, but one faced the back and was incredibly dark and depressing, and the other faced the front but had bars on the window that made it feel like a prison cell, plus people (especially when drunk) had no qualms about hanging out in front, chatting, smoking, etc., which made it hard to get to sleep some weekend nights.

I think outdoor space is nice, but not that huge a plus for me. The place where I currently live has a south-facing setback terrace and a roof with ladder access. If my next place has no outdoor space, it won't get much of a mark against it. If it doesn't have good light, I almost certainly wouldn't do it.

Now give me a few years without a place to grill, maybe outdoor space will move up in importance. On the other hand, I've discovered the wonders of a cast iron pan, and the associated smoke, so maybe a strong vent is good enough.