New York real going down

Good for you. And?

Can anyone help me get the 27 seconds back I wasted reading this?

You did not waste 27 seconds reading it. You wasted more seconds writting your comment. This was just an analysis of a banker wanting to know other lay opinion. I got it, thanks.

shah, good info about bank rules and loan ceiling. I hope you are right about the price decrease as would like to buy next year.

New York has a long way to go before it really goes "down." The city, right now, is not affordable to anyone but the very rich. You need to be making $200K plus annually to own anything half-decent. Much more for anything of any value. It's a shame. It's a city for the super rich. No more middle class. It's gone.

These arguments suggesting a big downward trend in NY are lacking in my opinion. They both lack a catalyst for such a move and ignore that the market is forward looking. Maybe we trend down a little, but that's all.

bronxboy - why do middle income people deserve more rights than rich people? Don't rich people need a place to live too? I find rich people much more diverse and much more interesting than poor and middle income people. Personally I wish we had more rich people here in the City - if we did our museums, theaters, restaurants, retail, (not to mention lower crime rates and cleaner streets) etc would all improve.

That may be the saddest thing I have ever read Jazzman. We may have better museums, which is hard to imagine, but we would no artists or struggling actors........ or any of the color that made New york so creative and magical at one time. A city completely filled with upscale retail and restaurants catering to the rich would be, well, no more interesting than the most expensive city size shopping mall on the planet. Corporations that do need to be in new york are leaving new york because they can maintain a staff cheaper elsewhere. If you want to reduce the crime rate, build a middle class in New york. Just rich people and section 8 equals crime. The middle class is the buffer.

and most important of all.......poor people don't hire people!

Since when is living in Manhattan a right, constitutional or otherwise. The obligation of this country is to provide equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Maybe Bronxboy needs to review his career opportunities and potential.

I think Jazzman was being sarcastic. At least I hope so. No one said anything about poor people. Since when is $100k annually poor? Only in New York City is it poor. Don't worry about me, Riversider. And I never claimed that living in Manhattan was a right. I'm just stating a fact about New York. The middle class has been eliminated, for better or worse. Time will tell on that one.

If you accept the fact that everything is relative - then the line designating "middle class" is still there, but it is at a higher income bracket. If "middle class" in the rest of the country is making $60k - $120k, then "middle class" for NYC would be more like $150k - $250k? And, people are right - even in that income bracket, the number of NY'ers making that in relation to the population is pretty small.

It seems the definition of middle class has to change and will become more on the profession of Doctor, Engineer, Lawyer, Scientist. The world is changing.

doctors, lawyers, etc. are middle class..they are probably two income families and having a hard time keeping it together with 2 kids in private school, etc. it's the hedge fund managers and other money men that are the rich in manhattan

living in manhattan is not a right, constitutional or otherwise, but that not the point. The point is creating a dynamic city that generates a domestic product. The truly rich in this city are predominantly related to the financial industry (wall Street). The other rich may be the echelon publishing, media, advertising, architecture/engineering, insurance...... even financial auditing firms like price waterhouse and the ilk. All of these later professions may have rich executives but a also a team of workers paid at middle class salaries which fall in the 100k to 200K range. If those people cannot afford to live in this city or their companies determine that those employees company paid expenses are too great, even in less desirable neighborhoods, then those industries will just move to a less expensive city to headquarter and do business. You know cities with better consistent public schools. With todays global technology they do not have to be here. New york should be able to house engineers, doctors, lawyers.... etc. making between 100K and 200K with an acceptable standard of living (ie being able to buy an apartment) in order to be a healthy city. Granted, If there are simply so many rich people, individuals making 300k++++ that it can keep an solid turnover of property in manhattan below 96 th street, then fine, let capitalism take its lead..... But that would then be a huge argument for the development of uptown manhattan (harlem) and continued growth into brooklyn for the middle class. A takeover of the "poor" neighborhoods that have bordered manhattan proper. But what we are seeing is dropping prices everywhere and little job growth. If financial services start to leave, it will be those middle class professions and incomes that will gladly take whatever now becomes affordable.

"It's a city for the super rich. No more middle class. It's gone."

The super rich are the middle class in NY

Interesting conversation about where the line is drawn for the middle class since it is all relative. (http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displaystory.cfm?subjectid=7933596&story_id=15659589) NYC isnt even in the top 5 in the world as the most expensive city to live in. And even though it is not one of the most expensive cities, I personally believe it to be an expensive place to live, middle Income or not (however you wish to draw the line)...I mean have you seen the prices of condo's in LIC. Really? Harlem here I come!

1. Can there be some sort of edit function on a post, so I don't have to be reminded of Shah's poor English? New York Real? Really? Real what? Breasts? New York's real breasts are going down. That's what real breasts do. They sag.

2. Billywilder,
They already have a city of 100% upper class. It's called Monaco. If you've never had the chance to party on a friend's boat there, it's one of the better times to be had. If they had a subway, it probably wouldn't smell like piss like ours does (I take it every day, so relax). I can't afford to live in Monaco (yet), but my friends do, and it's perfect.

3. As for listening to Riversider predict where the housing market is going, what do you do again for a living?

Who cares about middle-class?

Positivecarry, Monaco isn't anywhere near as rich as New York.

The Upper East Side 60-80th, 5th - Park axis alone makes Monaco look like a welfare case, when looking at billioniares/hectomillionaires residing in each. Monaco is nothing but a tax haven for the third world/vacation resort (and I love Monaco). In fact, every city in the world, including London, is poor compared to New York if we go by those measurements.

We just have too many poors in the city that dilutes it.

I hope this discussion wouldn't go to this direction. No matter you are low class, middle class or rich, it is hard to buy in NYC these days. Unless you want to go all cash, you will be in trouble. That is all I meant. The new bank rules make it so difficult for people to buy. I wouln't describe NYC as the place for rich. I would describe it the place for young people who go their career in the city and therefore willing to live in the city. This being said, for young adults who are not that rich, it is hard to borrow. Difficulty in borrowing is nationwide. However, it will affect NYC more as the loans are larger in NYC. Larger loans are those that are more difficult to get.

". I would describe it the place for young people who go their career in the city and therefore willing to live in the city."

What exactly does that mean? No old people in NYC?