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America Builds an Aristocracy

Started by alanhart
over 15 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007
Discussion about
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/12/opinion/12madoff.html?ref=opinion AMERICANS have always assumed that wealth comes and goes. A poor person can work hard, become rich and pass his money on to his children and grandchildren. But then, if those descendants do not manage it wisely, they may lose it. “Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations,” the saying goes, and it conforms to our... [more]
Response by The_President
over 15 years ago
Posts: 2412
Member since: Jun 2009

Ray D. Madoff? I almost burst out laughing when I read an article about money written by a Madoff, even if he has no relation to Bernie.

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Response by se10024
over 15 years ago
Posts: 314
Member since: Apr 2009

alan, agreed, trusts are great -- everyone should have one.

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Response by alanhart
over 15 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

only one?

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Response by nyc10023
over 15 years ago
Posts: 7614
Member since: Nov 2008

The average person has no idea what a trust is. Much less the rule against perpetuities.

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Response by se10024
over 15 years ago
Posts: 314
Member since: Apr 2009

'only one?'
the more the merrier

'The average person has no idea what a trust is. Much less the rule against perpetuities.'
perpetuities apply to dynasties (not relevant to this board)... lifetime exemption applies to many more (anyone who buys a classic 7 more or less?)

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Response by alanhart
over 15 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

Classic 7s are almost all in coops -- not sure they'd allow trust ownership ... anyone?

Seriously, though, learning about these trusts, and the (usual) lobbying that went on to enable them, really and truly disgusts me.

So does the opiner's assumption that a two-generation duration is okeh. It's not.

... but very slightly mitigated by his comparison of right-to-use tax-free in these trusts with the taxable benefits of similar uses by employees of companies. Is every oceanfront manor-house mega-estate in Southampton, Palm Beach, etc. trust-owned?

Is there even any legitimate need for a tax-advantaged trust even for one generation?

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Response by se10024
over 15 years ago
Posts: 314
Member since: Apr 2009

don't think it matters who bought it originally, anything can be gifted to the trust
more to the point, anyone who leaves a taxable (but not dynastically sized) estate to children feels that they are taxed multiple times.

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Response by alanhart
over 15 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

We as a nation have therapists to deal with feelings.

How about
alanhart is taxed once, alanhart jr. (the emotionally needy little shit) is taxed once, alanhart iii ( the rehab addict) is taxed once, etc.

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Response by nyc10023
over 15 years ago
Posts: 7614
Member since: Nov 2008

Trusts aren't tax-advantaged for the first generation. That's the crux of the issue. Trusts are a way for people to control the disposition of their assets. And very legitimately so (minor children, incapacitated children). The point is whether one should be allowed to have estate tax applied once or if the estate is taxed every time it gets passed to the next generation.

Simple example of the kinds of trust issue alluded to by the article:
Am I allowed to put all my assets in trust for my kids as well as for the education of my great-grandchildren (assuming no gchildren exist yet)? Estate taxes have been applied once, but should they be applied again upon the death of all my children?

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Response by nyc10023
over 15 years ago
Posts: 7614
Member since: Nov 2008

As far as holding RE in trusts, it makes sense for estate planning.

Bob and Mary own classic 7, their sole asset. 3 kids. Bob dies. Mary remarries. If the apt was jointly owned, right of survivorship, apt goes to Mary. Mary's new husband Rat will have a claim on the apt if she predeceases him, even if he's not in Mary's will by virtue of the 1/3rd share of the estate provision.
If the apt was put in trust for their children with lifetime use by Mary, then Ray gets no share of apt.

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Response by nyc10023
over 15 years ago
Posts: 7614
Member since: Nov 2008

Rat-ray.

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Response by se10024
over 15 years ago
Posts: 314
Member since: Apr 2009

don't forget the porsche Rat buys with Bob's $$

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Response by alanhart
over 15 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

No problem, the $$ have already been taxed.

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Response by nyc10023
over 15 years ago
Posts: 7614
Member since: Nov 2008

Not if all the $ is in a trust with the kids as trustees.

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Response by se10024
over 15 years ago
Posts: 314
Member since: Apr 2009

OP is right -- trusts should be more popular

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Response by printer
over 15 years ago
Posts: 1219
Member since: Jan 2008

Steinbrenner dies in the year of no estate tax - suspiciously convenient

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Response by se10024
over 15 years ago
Posts: 314
Member since: Apr 2009

very nice :)
100% chance of them taxing it retroactively though, or many many more people would die this year

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Response by printer
over 15 years ago
Posts: 1219
Member since: Jan 2008

what odds do you give me on that, se10024? No way they get anything passed before midterms, and a lame duck Congress isn't going to do it. So then you'll have a Congress that will have substantially higher proportion of Republicans in it. I think you'll have to wait till '11 and it'll be part of the negotiations on the expiring Bush cuts/AMT/etc.

I never thought it'd come to this as I don't think consensus is all that far apart on both sides, but it just doesn't seem to be anywhere near a priority for this administration.

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Response by se10024
over 15 years ago
Posts: 314
Member since: Apr 2009

what r u trying to do printer, lay your risk off to me :)

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Response by se10024
over 15 years ago
Posts: 314
Member since: Apr 2009
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Response by Riversider
over 15 years ago
Posts: 13572
Member since: Apr 2009

What a name for a politician, "sukup"

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