smoking

buyer beware? Currently there is no law that states a person is not allowed to smoke in their own apartment. I have read things where it has been talked about, but i doubt it will happen, as it is one thing to stop it in restaurants and bars, but it is another to say a person is not allowed to smoke in a home that they own. but who knows.

There are starting to be no smoking rentals and its possible some coops have passed rules against smoking. I haven't smoked in almost 20 years and lost my father to emphysema but I would NOT embrace any law or rule that regulated what legal activity I can and can't do in my own home. That's one step away from going back to legislating sex acts and we all know how productive that has been for society.

Playing music loudly at midnight is not illegal, but not allowed in most buildings

Not to get into picky stuff, because as soon as I wrote that I knew someone would find an exception, I imagine that it could be prosecutable under "disturbing the peace" statutes in extreme cases and where the local authorities didn't have anything better to do (i.e. not in NYC).

It's not even slightly analogous to legislating sex acts ... it's a basic "right to swing your fist unless it's likely to connect with someone's nose" issue. Smoke in a multiple dwelling is likely to infiltrate other units (so nobody should be surprised when it does), and it's a recognized health hazard. Burden should be 100% on the smoker, which is most easily enforceable via an outright building-wide ban.

Unfortunately, though, there's no law mandating that, at least in NY.

Yes except what you will most likely find is any building that attempts this will have to allow exceptions for people who already own. Or most likely individuals will band together to sue the board over a new amendment to the bylaws, which will then cause no one to want to buy in the building while all this is going on.

I always see the worst case so that is all i am describing.

but i see these things being resolved over time, such as with a washer/dryer getting grandfathered in. Making it so current owners could continue as they were, but new owners would have to adhere to no smoking.

I think the issue in the end is how are you going to regulate in a large building and if someone does break the rule what are you going to do and how long will it take to get done.

It seems pretty straightforward to me. In almost all multifamily dwellings, behavior that can impinge on the health or happiness or property value of a fellow tennant is regulated, why should tobacco abuse be regulated as well

There is nothing I resent more than being subject to my neighbor's noxious cigarette smoke, while well within the confines of my own apartment! Grrrrrr :(

Ask if they can put special filters in the apartment vents.
Talk to the super or resident manager and then make a formal complaint to the board of directors.

What you need to do is close off / seal any gaps in your floor or where the molding meets the floor. You also should put filters in your vents, and buy an air purifier. This is part of the reason I would only consider living in a building that had concrete floors and ceilings (not wood.)

I forgot to add that you also should seal off around your outlets. Smoke can get in that way too.

Filters don't work. Been there/done that. The only thing that stops smoke from infiltrating into your apartment is when your smoking neighbor moves...or quits. It's up to the condo or coop to enforce the burden on the smoker. If that means rewriting bylaws, so be it. The majority of owners will agree to it because it is in the best interest of their investment. If I'm looking at an apartment to buy and even catch a faint whiff of cigarette smoke, I'm gone. No chance I'd buy. And if the former owner was a smoker it takes a long, long time to get rid of the stench that has permeated the walls.

What's next? Anti fish cooking rules? No curry? I resent the smell of fish and curry more than cigarette smoke. What about anti-driving statutes, since car exhaust has been found to be far more dangerous to health than smoke.

How about the NYCL 201.5-06 which provides "No person shall, pursuant to this statute, be a total baby".

"There is nothing I resent more than being subject to my neighbor's noxious cigarette smoke, while well within the confines of my own apartment! Grrrrrr :("

Can you please explain to me how you are subjected to your neighbor's smoking? I have yet to see smoke travel through walls, floors, or ceilings. I used to live next door to someone who smoked liek a train. But I never once smelled any smoke in my apt.

At this point, it's not about the *annoyance* of the odor, as with cooking smells. It's a health issue. And we don't allow cars in our homes because of the exhaust, also for health reasons.

Alpie, smoke travels through the gaps around heat pipes, plumbing chases, electrical wiring pathways, etc. In addition, nonconcrete buildings present many more opportunities.

@The_President You must have lived in a decent quality constructed building. Some buildings are very poorly constructed and the walls/ceilings/floors are so thin and flimsy that they allow noise and odors to come through.

It's a health issue. I smell fish cooking from next door all the time. It's not pleasant, but I wouldn't be concerned. With cigarette smoke, I'm definitely concerned.

@bronxboy I completely agree with you. Especially if you have a baby, children or pets.... I would much rather have cooking odors wafting into the apartment than an odor that is potentially harmful.

What's next? My neighbor can't watch fox news because it cause server depression.

It's really very simple ...
* lung cancer kills more people annually than all other "popular" cancers COMBINED.
* 90% of people who die of lung cancer are smokers.
* You'd have to really evade logic to assume that much of the other 10% die of causes other than second-hand smoke. Junkie-like behavior, and logically so.

What about weed? Seriously...The person who smokes two packs plus a day of cigarettes (Liz 1985 for example) may be doing damage to her own health and that of those around her (my first cat died of a cancer that has been linked to second hand smoke). But the person who lights up a joint now and then and relaxes isn't hurting anybody. (Not to say marijuana can't be addictive--it certainly can, but this is strictly regarding occasional use). Are they going to told "NO" by the coop/condo powers as well. Please don't say that's okay because pot is illegal, clearly we can't continue with legal tobacco and illegal pot much longer--the contradiction is too strong even for politicans.

thanks for all the replies, i just dont like the fact that i can be sitting in my apt and start smelling cig smoke. it isn't an everyday problem yet, but i guess the first step is to let the people downstairs know it is bothering me. i dont think sealing up the outlets and all that other stuff is really going to do anything, because the smoke will rise somehow. with all the news about second hand smoke i just want to try and stop this problem before it turns into something i cant live with.

If it's occasional and you think the neighbors are reasonable, approach nicely and ask that they smoke out the window, even at times they'd ordinarily have the windows closed for heat/AC.

It is very likely that the other 10% are exposed to car exhaust, or similar carcinogens.

I don't smoke, but I hate these people who move into a city and an apartment building and are shocked to find out they have neighbors who do things.

@treetownal And I dislike people who move to the city and feel they are entitled to do whatever they want with no respect to the people who live around them. PS - I'm a native NY'er, born in Queens.

I am not a smoker, but i don't know if saying people do whatever they want regarding smoking is accurate. I feel we are missing some information at least in this circumstance. Where exactly is this smoke coming in from?

but besides that if i am enclosed in my apartment smoking, how does that equate to feeling entitled? I could understand if they walk through the lobby and hallways and smoke, that would be entitlement.

Now also goes to the talk about cancer. I am not an expert, i understand if i am next to someone who is smoking i am getting all the effects, however if we are talking about the lingering smell, well that is another story.

If we are just talking smells and not lets say the high risk of second hand smoke, then we are no differnt from walking down the hall and smelling someones cooking that turns my stomach, but obviously they like.

I am not a big supporter of smoking as i have seen its effect on people, but i feel this is more about a smell then the worries about cancer or such.

In my condo, we've got the super and the entire board sniffing like dogs in hallways of floors with complaints. Me thinks won't be long bf by-laws are changed.

One word 'negative pressure'. And seriously, smoking is disgusting. If I spit on someone and that increased cancer risk for you and your kids, would society allow me randomly spitting at people as I walked by them on the street?

One day well look back on smoking freedom on par with owning slaves freedom.

"One day well look back on smoking freedom on par with owning slaves freedom."

One day we'll be idiots then, or one day we might look back at the above and decide it has elevated idiotic hyperbole to high art. Second hand smoke is equivalent to the systematic purchase, torture, rape and enslavement of Africans. You win the prize for being a fucktard.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that virtually everybody who's diagnosed with lung cancer dies of it. That's because there's no practical test for it prior to symptoms presenting themselves, and by that point it's nearly always Stage III or IV.

So to reiterate:

It's really very simple ...
* virtually everyone diagnosed with lung cancer will die of it, within 5 years and usually much less time than that
* lung cancer kills more people annually than all other "popular" cancers COMBINED.
* 90% of people who die of lung cancer are smokers.
* You'd have to really evade logic to assume that much of the other 10% die of causes other than second-hand smoke. Junkie-like behavior, and logically so.

Oh come on. Smoking is an unnecessary and disgusting habit. I can remember when the debate was over the etiquette of smoking in the elevator when someone else got on. Sooner rather than later it will be outlawed in multiple dwellings and then it will take some yearjs after that before people stop cheating on the rules. Meanwhile, the thought of a two pack a day habit costing $7,500 a year is absurd as well.

"One day well look back on smoking freedom on par with owning slaves freedom.'

All you politically correct left wing fools think you can tell others what to think, eat or do. The
morons want to even control the amount of salt you use. To hell with you all. I might start smoking
in my apartment just because of these comments. The enslavement of America has been achieved.

julialg, make sure you blow the smoke in your baby's face too, because you can do whatever you want but she has no right to politically-correct freedom from carcinogens and the resultant deadly cancers.

Or pull your head out of your ass and take responsibility.

Julia! Never forgot your most important right of all. The right to be stupid. While you're smoking to prove your freedom, perhaps a nude motorcycle ride might be a good idea as well?

And while you're at it, don't forget your right to a sun burn and unlimited red meat slathered in butter and melted cheese.

hey treetowngal.... slavery or forms of slavery have been around as long as men have beaten each other up. And I am really speaking about a codified/legalized acts which in hindsight seems ridiculous. You know "no anal sex" laws, male only golf clubs, WASP only social clubs.. .etc etc etc... .in hindsight slavery=smoking=no anal sex laws... oh which reminds me, julialrg... you are free to have as much anal sex as you want... just don't let the "plug" accidentally slip and shove it up my azz... m'okay...

"julialg, make sure you blow the smoke in your baby's face too, because you can do whatever you want but she has no right to politically-correct freedom from carcinogens and the resultant deadly cancers."

alanhart I hate smoking and cigarettes and drugs, But It is none of your dam business what other people do. You want other people involved in your life, Snooping around your bedroom alan?

If it's to protect against my "rights" severely interfering with someone else's?

Oh no, naked saggy lady with a cigarette with a bjorn strapped to her front and the jiggles that come from a V-4... Oh NO.... the horror

"And while you're at it, don't forget your right to a sun burn and unlimited red meat slathered in butter and melted cheese"

cc None of your dam business if people want to do this.

who pays for health insurance?

oh yeah, Julia doesn't think that her "private" health insurance provides any subsidization for bad genetics, and I guess not for extremely risky behaviors also. she does pay for it, after all.

Wow, $7500 for a 2 pack a day habit of butts! Sheet, for that much money I'd expect to at least be supporting some South American dictator and getting a major buzz for my money. I'd imagine not too many people in the US smoke two packs/day anymore...there just isn't that many places you can smoke. When I did it, Mad Ave when it the death rattles of the Mad Men era and with the exception of subways and buses you could smoke just about everywhere. I stopped when Clients started not allowing it in meetings.

Its such an emotional issue. I wonder about second hand smoke and its supposed dreadful impact on children because one would think the Baby Boomers (Moms smoked when pregnant, everyone smoked everywhere around them) would have been more affected--and if anything its today's kids you hear more about asthma, allergies, ADD and other maladies that were much rarer in our day.

On the other hand, lung cancer is very scary. The father of a close friend was in his 60s and in good health quit smoking entirely 15 years ago. Last summer he was diagnosed with Stage 1V lung cancer and was dead in two months. Emphysema in some ways is worse precisely because you linger for so long, increasingly disabled, unable to breath and often, at the end, mentally confused because oxygen can't get to the brain.

I guess its a personal choice, but one I choose to reject these days. And at $7500/year, not even something I can consider these days.

'You win the prize for being a fucktard'

treetown, w67 claimed that prize a long time ago. he's the tiger woods of fucktardestness

aboutready You start attacking me on a personal level and i defended you the other night against greenecounty. CLASSY

Rather than whining about smokers, how about some creative suggestions for the OP? You may want to try this?

Gather some dog shit (make sure it isn't hard, needs to be fairly malleable) and put into a sandwich bag (without a seal). Most doors have a little bit of space between the floor and the door. Take the shit bag and slide opening about 1/4 to 1/2 way through the bottom of the door. Gently slide the shit out of the bag (think tube of toothpaste) and Voila! A shit pancake is waiting for your neighbor on the other side of his door. To complete the process, write a note that says "Your neighbors can smell your smoke so now you can smell our shit. How about we move both smells outdoors where they belong?".

"who pays for health insurance?" You pay for your own insurance unless you are a card carrying member of the welfare state.

you're in a condo, which is your own space. the ideas of sealing openings is the fastest and cheapest way for you to get rid of your problems. having a smoke free building is like asking everyone to hold their farts till they are in the bathroom with the door securely closed ;)

printer.. .let me get this straight. You are a head hunter... sorta like the re borkers of the financials firms. And you got an issue with Tiger Woods, a professional golf player. I am more disappointed that he leaned towards blonds with fake tits than the fact he f'ked every whore who threw herself at him.

He hits a mighty straight long ball. I expect that from him and nothing more, my world, my kids and my wife's world were NOT "rocked" by learning a 30yo something with a $1B in the bank and swedish model wife and 2 kids was boning some 25yo HoJo waitress...

The other day, I heard of a club member, who's wife found him banging two japanese prostitutes on his 50foot yacht.... let's just say sound travels very well on the water.... FLMAO. It speaks to America's immature imbecility that you think what Tiger did was so shocking.

FYI,. his boat is for sale.. .anyone want a cheap beneteau?

shit Juiceman.. you sound like a professional shitpancake maker in a former life...

what you can do is get a very high quality air cleaner for your place. Put it on a clock timer and run it at the 'worst' smoking times. It will greatly diminish the parts per million situation and it also may reduce the smoke residue below your noticeable threshold. Then, plan with your neighbors the early demise of the offending tenet. I'm thinking......Meadowlands...leave the guns, take the canolies.

classy, Julia? please. just talking about the issues. if you smoke and your health insurance is a group policy you are asking others to subsidize the potential implications of your risky behavior. risk spreading among members of a community. what does that sound like?

jm has an interesting perspective.

my mom quit smoking. five years later she was diagnosed with stage iii lung cancer. about fifteen months later, after having most of a lung removed, chemotherapy, and eventually becoming bedridden from a lung infection, she died at the age of 53. her care was very expensive, and was covered, thankfully. but she started smoking in the 50's, well before the health implications had been revealed.

lung cancer doesn't fuck around.

http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aIUufpQqazW4

This is what you all should be worried about. Not some P.C. freak control.

To aboutready. We needs more comps.

Take the cannolis.

I know w67th. sorry, I've been busy. Comps don't just compare, cut and paste on their own, you know. not to mention the selection bias, that takes some real focus.

I'm sure my inner comps muse will speak to me soon.

No worries. Take the summer off, maybe I'll rally and put some comps up. ; )

The health hazard from sporadic exposure to second hand smoke through the walls and vents of your apartment building is basically zero. It's just a pretext that allows some to feel morally superior while legislating their own particular annoyance.

you go, w67th. I'm just having to take care of all the stuff that I've ignored the past weeks while traipsing around. btw, one of the more interesting searches to take a look-see at these days is once again listings that have decreased prices by at least 10 percent in the last 30 days.

wow w67, your reading comprehension is even worse than I thought. good to know that now i'm a headhunter - when did i start this new career? are you looking to move, or hire someone - perhaps i can help you.

"A smell" is not "a smoke". However objectionable a smell of a smoke is to someone, it's no second-hand smoke.
If a neighbour is allergic to the OP's cologne, what could the neighbour do? Nothing.

I've got a 6yo and a 4yo. I've got a built in excuse for anything.

Why did I miss the golf outing, kid woke up 'puking'. Why'd I misread that prospectus? My daughter had a hissy fit about her dress bc it didn't have enough colors!

So who r you printer? More importantly who am I?

Will do aboutready.

"The health hazard from sporadic exposure to second hand smoke through the walls and vents of your apartment building is basically zero. It's just a pretext that allows some to feel morally superior while legislating their own particular annoyance."

Wait until this regime forces a one payer universal health care system down our throats. Then you will have all the aboutreadies, and hall monitor examining every aspect of your life. They we say "we pay for it now". Lenin was the father of universal health care, that's all you need to know.

I'm with julialr.

I'm gonna go ballistic if they try to take away my right to kill someone.

Including yourself!

I used to smoke 20 packs a day but, since I lost one of my lungs...I cut my smoking in half.

well, if they make some noise you can force them to cover 85 percent of their floors with carpets, even if the doctor says it's not healthy. no precedent for control of environmental factors within buildings at all.

and, honestly, I'm not certain that smoke travelling amongst us is benign. very reputable research hospitals are now cautioning against even third-hand exposure, particularly for children and the immune-impaired (which seems to be increasing at shockingly high rates, despite generally lower pollution, some say increased pollination due to weather change is at fault).

Julia, you've benefitted mightily from a health insurance system based on socialism. just because the collective was a bargaining unit based on employment doesn't mean risk wasn't assumed by all. from those...to those. with your leanings I'm sure you agree that everyone should pay out of pocket for every procedure. sure, some would die as a result, but over time it would likely decrease costs and make the system more efficient. you're a socialist in terms of health care, just only for the haves.

falco, ratchet it back up man. add conspicuous and extreme alcohol consumption. if you're going to go down, go down in a conflagration.

my daughter had a hissy fit bc her dress didn't have enough colors.

awesome. my teen had a hissy fit because somehow a pair of her new tights (harrods annual sale, braved second day) got lost in transportation. but she apologized profusely within 20 minutes, admitted the absurdity. things don't change, but they can get better.

Fortunately nobody on my floor smokes, but whenever the elevator in my building stops on the 12th floor a rush of stale smoke smell comes in. Some old shut-in on that floor smokes like a chimney and everyone else on the floor is miserable. Oughta be a law against it, or they should be able to seal up her apartment (door seals, cutting off common ventilation, etc..).

Julia, you've benefitted mightily from a health insurance system based on socialism. just because the collective was a bargaining unit based on employment doesn't mean risk wasn't assumed by all. from those...to those. with your leanings I'm sure you agree that everyone should pay out of pocket for every procedure. sure, some would die as a result, but over time it would likely decrease costs and make the system more efficient. you're a socialist in terms of health care,
just only for the haves.

You are really an idiot aboutready. Yale ain't what it used to be.

my daughter had a hissy fit bc her dress didn't have enough colors.

like mother like daughter

daughter probably doesn't have a job either

julia, if you're a capitalist you'll pay for each doctor visit, each hospital stay, each diagnostic imaging or whatever, and each prescription -- the full price. If you're a socialist you'll pool together with other collectivists and share the risk in an insurance pool.

It's that simple -- pay as you go, in full.

If the blood sucking lawyers like aboutready's husband didn't sue doctors and hospitals, medical care would cost much much less.

my daughter had a hissy fit bc her dress didn't have enough colors.

Julia, for the seventeenth time my husband has zero to do with medmal or health insurance. I'm the idiot?

want to know when health care costs went through the roof? when glass-steagall was repealed, you dimwit. when we gave the large banks our blessing to own insurance companies and maximize their profits with little to no regulation. there are far more limitations on tort recovery today than there were in 1995, yet our health care costs have skyrocketed.

your "private" health care insurance is basically following a socialist model. you're stoopid.

Builders build, bakers bake and lawyers sue. Seems fairly simple

Some builders build shoddy condos. Some build 15 cpw.

Thanks for playing.

True there are some very crappy lawyers out there.

she's baaack ... seven weeks of vacation and no more in-laws hasn't improved her sunnyness though.

"Julia, for the seventeenth time my husband has zero to do with medmal or health insurance. I'm the idiot?" The lieyer, i mean lawyer mentality of taking what you can't earn from the productive of society is the curse of this country. It is the entitlement mentality aboutread. I am entitled to things i don't earn.

Julielg: Why do you hate capitalism so much? "I am entitled to things i don't earn" is the fundamental rule of property.

And the right to be free of invasion in one's own home -- whether or not it was "earned" -- is one of the most basic property rights. If your smoke invades my property, you are simply a burglar, stealing my property without compensation.

By the way, universal health care was first instituted by Bismarck, not Lenin. While it is true that the US and Cuba are neck-in-neck in their national health statistics, the actual success stories are all advanced capitalist countries that understand how markets work: Germany, Japan, Sweden, France, Switzerland, Denmark, etc., all have far better results than ours at half or less the cost.

With regards to health care. The press is reporting the fear has turned to reality with health care providers now beginning to limit choice of Doctors.

Gah. I'm tired of this healthcare thing already and the all-too-automatic implication that national HC = longer life expectancy. Within the U.S. there is remarkable diversity of life expectancy between diff. ethnic and immigrant groups independent of access to HC. If you go to the hinterland, you would be shocked at obesity rates and eating habits, etc.

The best thing about U.S. "healthcare" is also the worst thing. Nowhere else in the world can you (pretty much) get to see the doctor you want or be tested for XYZ by waving your cash. In many nationalized systems, the system decides for you. And people jump the queue too, but it's a question of connections not cash.

To the OP: the coop/condo unquestionably has the right to prevent anti-social behavior by one inhabitant that diminishes the property right to quiet enjoyment (and resale value) of others. If there is no by-law barring this, a majority can pass one.

Similarly, if a majority wants to ban cooking smells or permit loud noises, they can do that too. There is no issue of freedom or fundamental rights here -- those who like bacon in the morning can buy air purifiers and seal their apartments just as easily as those who don't.

In 1950, cigarette smoking was a right and breathing was a tolerated activity that, in a free country, anyone was free to engage in so long as they didn't interfere with the rights of others. But feudalism is over. We are free to change our minds. Contrary to Mikev, there are no vested interests in smoking; contrary to Julielg, nothing in the nature of property gives stinkers more rights than smellers.

It's just a conflict of uses, and in a free, liberal, democratic, and capitalist country, the majority is free to decide that it is breathing which should be a right and smoking that should only be tolerated.

The decision about which behavior to subsidize and which to tolerate can be made nationally, locally, or by vote of the coop board. So long as there are large numbers of Julialgs around, vote of the coop board is the most liberal system: Julialg and her fellow misanthropes can form their own coop in which all the building's residents will be forced to subsidize the cigarette smokers and midnight partiers, and the rest of us can just move somewhere more civilized.

There are limits, however. Julialg and co. should not be allowed to disconnect from the public sewers or the police and fire systems or build in violation of the safety codes or refuse to pay their taxes; we aren't required to tolerate every bit of her anti-social efforts to free-load on the rest of us.

Some/all of the lincoln center coops made history by banning smoking inside one's apartment a while back. It's actually a very interesting question and speaks to the extent that a home owner association can restrict one's activities inside one's unit.

Well-said, financeguy, well-said.

Riversider, cooperators are not homeowners, they're shareholders in a corporation. They have no more individual rights than a shareholder/employee has to smoke in his office.

I had a neighbor who couldn’t handle the pee smell from an apartment next door because the older gentleman had incontinence. so we should now ban all old people from coops or make them change their depends once an hour.

RS: "made history"? "inside"? No, the issue was smoke invading other people's units, and the rules barring such invasions are hardly new.

Julia, why do you allow other people to subsidize your health expenses? do you feel entitled to their money?

the law. you can hate it but no advanced society can function without it. kind of like a banking system.

I suppose you'd prefer anarchy. if not, then lawyers (for the most part) and other rule enforcers perform an absolutely essential role. feel free to move to a country without a decently functioning legal system. I'm sure you'll enjoy it, as long as you can afford your own retinue of bodyguards.

hey, what was so offensive about my pointing out that there are plenty of crappy, misleading bloggers? and rs called someone a moron quite recently.

10023: Yes, the evidence is quite clear: the US's high level of inequality and our bad urban planning hurts our public health record, partly via mechanisms like obesity (which is closely related both to low status in highly stratified workplaces and to the private sector's failure to provide mass transit).

The evidence is also clear that the US has the most expensive health care in the world by a significant margin and results that are appalling by comparison with countries that have EITHER national health care OR national health insurance, with OR without a private-market option on the side.

We simply combine market inefficiency with enormous subsidies for drug companies, insurance companies, privatized hospitals and clinics, bill collectors, and their executives, bondholders and shareholders to generate high costs, low effectiveness, and tremendous incentives to replace cheap primary care with expensive and ineffective tertiary care. The effects of this disastrous economic experiment are so bad that they overwhelm any demographic differences between the US and the rest of the rich world.

2 questions AR:

1) Which health insurance company is, or has been, owned by a bank?
2) What exactly is 3rd hand exposure to cigarette smoke?
3) Since when is a voluntarily agreement to enter into a market priced insurance contract socialism? By that definition, when I buy a shirt at the Gap it is socialism b/c the cost of mass production is dramatically less than if I had the shirt custom made.

Thanks for your answers.

Printer " The best and brightest" from Yale are in Washington and you see how well the country is run. Don't expect much
fro aboutready.

keep the faith Julia, in 6 months we start to undo the damage.

If the dems keep control of both houses, the stock market collapses and the N.Y. real estate collapses . Marxism is very very bearish.

Financeguy: the answer is not that simple. An argument can be made (any epidemiologists out there) that the demographic differences trump everything else. The cheap primary care that you allude to does not exist in the form that pro-UHCers think it does. Nor does it have the desired effect. What really kills people? And how effective would regular check-ups be in prolonging life and how do you isolate the fact that the type of people who go for regular checkups in any country tend to be the kind of people who lead healthier lives anyway.

In Canada and the UK, most people are not conscientious in scheduling checkups and there is a lack of healthcare personnel to administer checkups (changing now with increasing role of nurse-practitioners). There is a small effect on longevity, sure, of being able to get care once you have a chronic problem (diabetes, BP) but case management sucks due to lack of healthcare providers and most people aren't aggressive in managing their own health.

There was a recent article about how people sucked at taking medication that was essential for their health unless they were PAID on top of getting the meds.

I am in favor of UHC of some kind. I know too many people who need it desperately, wouldn't abuse it, and use it to lead much healthier and productive lives. I am uber-judgmental of those lucky enough to live in UHC systems who don't use what is available in a sensible way to prevent chronic issues that end up costing the system huge $$ and the patient needless pain.

Printer: Isn't your Gap shirt made in Communist China to government quality standards, imported into government-run ports on government-subsidized boats protected from piracy by socialized navies and their government-financed subcontractors, transferred at a government-subsidized exchange rate using several different government-mandated fiat currencies, pursuant to government-enforced contracts in socialized courts, marketed under a government-created-monopoly brand name by employees who were educated in government schools, born in government-financed hospitals and cared for by government-trained doctors and are paid a government-mandated minimum wage and are entitled to government-paid retirement, disability and health care benefits, in stores that benefit from government subsidized fire and police protection, using fiat currency that you got from your government-subsidized job via a government-financed bank and took to the store using socialistic roads and/or privately-built but socialist-operated subways?

http://thepeoplescube.com/lenin/lenin-s-own-20-monster-quotes-t185.html

Obama and the dems certainly paid attention to their "progressive" professors in their elite universities.

Or perhaps you bought it in Sudan? I hear they have some free markets there, with no government interference at all, just the way Julialg likes it.

oy, you're a 'fiat currency' tinfoil hat gold nut guy? ok, go get your canned goods, shortwave radio, bunker in the hills and get back to me when the end has come & gone.

After listening to Obama's signing ceremony for another 2500 page bill, it is quite evident that he despises everything that has made this a once great country. Obama is like a spoiled indignant child. He has everything given to him and has earned nothing.(nobel prize) He hates achievement and success. He doesn't want equality of opportunity but equality of results. It is a very sad and dangerous time for lovers of individuality and freedom.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/gold-coin-dealers-decry-tax-law/story?id=11211611

Explain this one to me all you delusional people.