40 Fifth Avenue

Looks like a beautiful apartment. Re: pricing - not going there. Hope your friend asked you to do this.

As anyone remotely familiar with the area and building knows, 40 Fifth represents the very pinnacle of the lower Fifth Ave Gold Coast prewars and determining fair market value for apartments there is understandably challenging for sellers given the absense of obvious comparable sales other than those inside the building itself. Clearly your friend has struggled to find the right price over the last 300 days. FWIW, the seller of the other available apartment has been arguably even more adrift in finding the right offer price. Add to this the fact that the pool of buyers starts out very restricted due to 50% down requirement, significant maintenance fees with only 30% tax deductible, and a very stringent board.

On the other hand, the apartment looks gorgeous, and am I right that it has views of the church and Fifth Ave, with lots of great light?

Alas, the apartment is languishing on the market so the price at this time is clearly not right. What do you think of the apartment and pricing?

kylewest,

your point about the lack of good comps for apartment 8E at 40 5th Avenue doesn't seem accurate to me. There are a variety of comparable units that have sold in the building (including this very apartment three years ago) that should give us a lot of valuable information for pricing this unit.

04/26/2010 #4E - $4,600,000 2 beds 2.5 baths
01/21/2010 #3E $2,900,000 -9.4% $3,200,000 Sold 2 beds
08/29/2007 #8E $3,550,000
10/05/2006 #10E $3,450,000

4E failed to sell at $4.6 million, so it provides us little information.
Earlier this year 3E sold for $2.9. The condition of 3E is not entirely clear, but let's assume that 8E, which has been renovated, is in at least somewhat better condition. 8E itself sold in 2007. There is no previous listing availabe so we have no way of knowing if the apartment was renovated in the intervening years, but I will assume that the renovation was completed prior to the previous sale (which was not an estate sale). 10E, likewise, has no

So we have three sales in the same line within the last four years, including the sale of this exact unit. I don't see a buyer looking at this data and paying more than $3.5 for this apartment. The market has significantly weakened since 2007, and even if prime GV has held up better than other neighborhoods, it is hard to see why this apartment should have appreciated significantly over the past three years.

More to the point, the 3rd floor comp provides a significant, hard-to-refute argument against this price. 5 floors is worth something, but in this case less than you might think, as 3E also has lovely views of a historic church. It certainly isn't worth close to $1 million. Even if there has been a recent renovation it seems nearly impossible to justify such a huge spread between the two units.

As for the apartment, it looks unquestionably lovely.

The E-line is a fantastic layout. The living room and dining room look south over the church, while the chambers face west. There are eastern exposures in the dining room, maids room, kitchen, but they really look into the airshaft / garden. The southern views are great - because of the church, you get a nice panorama of the village, although the photos seem to really only capture the northern facade of 30 Fifth. It's a fairly flexible plan, too - the chamber bathrooms while small can be combined into a large bath if you wish, and you can open up the claustrophobic maid's room if you want an office area / wetbar. This E-line is nice, too, because the kitchen is in the back where it's more spacious - in some other E-lines, the kitchen and maid's room are actually flipped.

This is a really nice renovation - it retains all of the great detail that make 40 Fifth special, and the kitchen was kept very much in spirit with the original. The pricing is difficult - it seems reasonable - this is a substantial apartment in the preeminent building in a prime, prime, prime area, and it deserves a healthy premium. However, this is not really an apartment for a family which limits the buyer universe. It's not a true 3br, 3bth. The maid's room would be fine for an infant, but is way too small for another child, and the maid's bath is little more than a powder room with an exterior sink. I've often wondered for whom the E-line was intended - a couple with one child who were messy/high maintenance enough to warrant live-in help? Personally, I think this apt works great for a childless couple who enjoy entertaining and comfortable living and who have the occasional houseguest. Or an older couple with children who sporadically visit. Or a single person, just because.

happy, you didn't read what I said correctly about comps. I wrote pricing was hard because there are no really comparable buildings in the area and that leaves no comps "OTHER THAN THOSE INSIDE THE BUILDING ITSELF." Those internal comps obviously offer guidance. But the limited number of sales spread over a 4 year period which spans boom-time and deep recession aren't clear guideposts. In addition, the conditions of all the comp apartments isn't really known in the past sales and I think this is a somewhat more important factor than you suggest. In any event, we actually agree that the current sale price is too high--not exactly rocket science since the unit is on the market for over 300 days of which 150 days were at the current price.

Would love to know what the seller's "friend" thinks. I sure hope if this really is a friend that the seller put them up to this. Not nice to do without permission.

Happyrenter - there is actually a huge difference between 3E and the higher floors incl. 8E. The church is lovely, but once you are high enough to clear it, the south views are terrific. On the lower floors, you have no west views, as opposed to high floors where you look west over beautiful townhouses and more village panoramas. It's a totally different backdrop and much more light. I'm not going to refrain from arguing about pricing, but I think that 3E is not a great comp.

sorry - I meant "I'm going to refrain from arguing about pricing, but I think that 3E is not a great comp."

I think they could find a buyer around $3.2-$3.3M, maybe a bit more if they get lucky. Do they want to though? It's psychologically difficult to accept a financial loss. Right now, they own a $3.55 apartment (what they paid); I think the asking price is saying: "I will only sell if I get to keep all the marbles I put in." Fair enough.

buster, aren't southern views on 8th floor obstructed by 30 Fifth Avenue? Does 24 Fifth obstruct the southern views, too?

Beautiful apartment, but they're really asking for a special kind of sucker to come along at that price in the current market. It's asking a 15% premium to tip-top bubble pricing, and I think even the most ardent "GV is insulated from the world" person will say a 10% drop has happened since then. I agree with maly: a listing at $3.5M will find a buyer at $3.2-3.3M in a reasonable amount of time. Perhaps "the right" buyer at will do it $3.5M.

30 Fifth is never the issue - you certainly see 30 Fifth, but because it's a block away with the church in between, your south west views are open. Depending on where you are sitting in the living room or dining room, you may see mostly 30 Fifth facade, but when you look south west, it's open views (and you don't need to crane your neck - it's right there). On the lower floors, this is all "blocked" by the church (which is certainly lovely, but it's a very different view).

General observation: When an apt, whose most recent sale was during the bubble, is now back on the market, I'm skeptical when I see the current ask is higher than the most recent closing price. In a down market, why has the value of this unit increased? Another observation is that it's only 30% deductible. One strategy may be to lower the price, let a bidding war ensue, causing the price to approach the current ask. Nonetheless the bld, location & apt are beautiful, unique, rare & close to perfection.

I can't help myself: steal of the century was still PHC for $11MM if I recall. If the new owners are reading, if you invite me to dinner or for cocktails I promise to bring a really nice bottle of wine for you.

I don't think the apt. functions well as a three-bedroom -- realistically that room between the DR and the kitchen is going to be a home office, and even having that hall between the kitchen and the DR is an odd setup for parties.

I see this is being marketed as an alternative to a TH, but I don't think it is. I also don't see it for my Hollywood people. I think the buyer is someone who needs less space but that really great working environment -- law partner, maybe?

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

i am amazed by this--almost bought a 6 room in this bldg years ago and it was in line with the rest of the city--on prime park this 6 rm would be worth aroun 2.2mm, on prime 5th 2.6mm--that it might trade more in a prime 5th ave bldg in the village amazes me

go figure

I think the apt is ideal for couple without children. I dream of a place like this as a great "retirement" apartment. Open the maid's room up a tad and you have a nice breakfast area but retain the buffer between kitchen and dining room if you have a dinner party with help or any party in which help needs a little more staging area than the kitchen allows. I love it. If it drops to about $1MM I'll be the first to bid and get a jump on the future.

Kyle,

How can you say that the comps provide little guidance when this exact apartment sold three years ago. That isn't guidance? Three sales and an attempted sale in one line over a four year period is much better comps than you can usually expect, especially in a low-turnover building like 40 5th.

The point is this: it is very hard to expect someone to pay more for an apartment right now than it sold for 3 years ago, especially when, as in this case, there is nothing to suggest that the earlier sale was at a low price (it sold for more than the 10th floor apartment in the line had sold one year before).

As for the differences between 3 and 8: there is a difference, yes, as I said. But I am very familiar with these apartments, and it is safe to say that the difference in this building is not enormous. The street is very quiet, the main southern exposure is lovely in both apartments. a few hundred thousand, maybe even 4 or 5, but not $1 million.

I have sort of turned against the expensive classic six. The apartment I bought earlier this year is a true 3 bedroom/3 bath prewar apartment and having that real third bedroom makes a big difference. A cheap classic six is one thing: i'd just think of it as a 2 bedroom with a small bonus. But this apartment is far from cheap.

Sorry nobody put me up to it. It is a gorgeous apt. I've been in it a few times. Dream apt for me. Just wondering. I didn't think it was mean sorry if you thought that. What's the big deal - it's just another listing and we discuss listings daily here. It can be a 3 br but of course functions perfectly as a 2br - you can easily have 2 kids there - sharing a room or a little one in the extra room.

The apt is appx 1600 sq ft. Essentially a large 2 br with living and dining room. I can not see why anyone would want to pay more than 1500 a sq ft. $2.4mm. Which puts it 25-35% below the bubble price of 2007. For comps look at where 1 fifth avenue sells.

happy, I'm not really arguing with you. I just think it is a building with unusual pricing to start with and no piers. That was my point. I agree it is a two bedroom--a nice one. But that's how I always think about classic 6s. if I had to live in that with 2 kids I'd have one of those kids listed on ebay within a week. I don't get how people do it, let alone in even smaller places. Those kids must be really, really rewarding because the compromises seem unbearable to me.

charley, the thing is people paying almost $4mm for an apartment generally aren't looking to have two share a room. at that price that's a lot of compromise. at this price it's hard to justify this space for a family of three. sure, a buyer who really, really wants this building and doesn't care may go for it. but that would be a lucky match.

it's lovely, though.

There are lots of classic 6's, both UES and UWS that function as 3 bedrooms, with maid's room as 3rd BR. Problem here seems to be that you have to go through the maids to use the kitchen, thereby rendering maid's basically unusable as bedroom.

CCCharley- I guess the question was not whether anybody "put you up to it" but rather "did your friend ASK you to post this question on SE"? Or, put another way, did she/he give you permission to post their apartment on SE?

problem is, he needs to lower the ask by $8k to make up for the loss of the tax credit - am I right AR?

Prime GV/WV may not be down as far as other areas but its definitely taken a hit and I don't think anyone barring a personal obsession is going to pay more than today than an apartment sold for in 2007 unless there was a major renovation done and I doubt even in 2007 at 40 5th someone paid $3.5 for a two bedroom plus maids that needs a gut job.

Don't you realize Kyle, the people in the Penthouse are just withholding your invite until its time to tell to you on the Qt they are getting divorced and need to sell asap at rock rock bottom price.

lizyank: what I secretly hope might happen is they hear how much I yearn for the place and since I'm a basically good person they'll just sort of give it to me but continue paying the maintenance. maybe that isn't a realistic hope, but the dream lives on...

kylewest, no apology for your false defamation?

you do realize that the broker is innocent
and although the broker was a bit sloppy

you were many times more sloppy

and the implications of your malicious sloppiness have a greater implication

printer, I was making a comment on a thread where the op admitted he/she was looking for the tax credit. nice try though.

"printer, I was making a comment on a thread where the op admitted he/she was looking for the tax credit. nice try though."

What does that have to do the 40 Fifth Avenue?
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