Mosque near ground zero

i thought you were rich.

that's a long trip. all for the in laws and the jersey shore? I've been fighting them all day without much help. I'm going out for a drink!

i am rich. they're my inlaws.

i like philly people

you mean they're rich.

don't feel guilty for being rich? The left won't approve.

wake up stupid. the left is major rich.

actually, THESE people would approve. we rent our home and live significantly below our means

how rich are you?

cc, are you the only one here? guess you'll have to do. no, dear, not all wives marry their husbands for their bread and butter. some wives bring something to the table.

enough to have nothing to prove to a board of annonymous internet gabbers

So, at the new Mosque there will be no alcohol.
This is the only real problem that I see.
Now a Mosque with an open bar........
I think we would all have a much more accepting attitude.

In Manhattan we should ask all people who were born in this country and compare that to all residents of Manhattan. If we count only natural born citizens instead of immigrants who converted to the US in the past 30 years and change, and their anchor babies, we might be informed about true opinion.

indeed, falcogold1.

arbeefaster, i think you might be surprised at what you find. it's the natural born americans who take this country for granted. many immigrants are very politically conservative and they are the ones who really believe in the american dream and all that

No I don't take this country forgranted. And they say that minorities won't vote for Republicans because Republicans want to follow the immigration laws as they were intended.

are you being serious right now? who says this?

jason10006, started to read your huffpo link, but this was right above it and sounded much more fun

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/17/jeff-greenes-yacht-descri_n_685091.html

i don't take anything for granted...much less how great it is to in this country.

then why do you show much hatered for someone with a different political point of view, someone just from a different side of american politics, pretty mainstream stuff, actually.

It's true lucillebluth. This generation of Americans are like the grandchildren of the very wealthy. They take everything for granted and have earned nothing. They spit at what gifts they were given. The curse of the unearned. Value becomes meaningless and they squander their birthright.

wouldn't make that many generalizations. i think this is actually a generational divide. the generation that broke down past barriers are instinctively liberal.

I posted this months ago. When you have time take a look. I think you will appreciate it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdRpyfEmBE

w67thstreet
about 4 hours ago
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You know what's funny, back in the days when I worked at 2 WTC,

Holy Shit, the investment banking job you got was at Dean Witter Reynolds?
What a loser. Let me guess, you tell people you were at Morgan Stanley because they merged and dropped the Dean Witter name.
But every time you go into a Sears, you feel the urge to jump behind the counter.

I am not hating.

thank you, julialg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/17/texas-execution-peter-ant_n_685638.html Another cause de celebre of the left.. Protecting criminals and murderers.

With our soldiers still fighting wars overseas and atrocities still committed regularly in the name of Islam, Obama did not -- standing there in the White House -- see the opportunity before him to demand that Muslim leaders do more to scrub away the blight in their religion.

Nor did he see the opportunity, given his personal legitimacy among Muslims, to demand that the Islamic world practice the tolerance and love of freedom that is the hallmark of the very civilizations that the terrorists want to obliterate -- again, in the name of Islam.

Instead, in the sea of pain and agony that lingers from that horrible terrorist attack nine years on, Obama determined once again that it is Americans who must do more.

Survivors of 9/11 need to just get over it.

They really need to be more tolerant.

- Charles Hurt

how does the president of the united states demand anything from muslim leaders? on what basis? which particular leaders?

bjw2103
1 day ago
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report abuse lucille, what's your point? Obviously, it's horrible to actually execute people for this. The point is, based on what's happened (for the most part) with Christianity and Judaism, it's been proven that homosexuality and holy scripture calling for execution can co-exist. I am in no way condoning those actions; I was responding the julialg's post.

bjw2103, do you realize that what your are actually saying here, unintentionally, is that you believe islam to be developmentally behind judaism and christianity. in other words, you just very diplomatically and nicely agreed with the people who believe that islam has simply not evolved to the (for the most part) civilized levels of judaism and christianity in being able to balance ancient morality fairy tales and modern law and life. sorry to call you out, but just had to say it. your intentions are clearly sincere in finding accord and common ground, but the only way you seem to be able to do that is by holding the followers of islam to a different standard.

lucille, I'm not holding them to a different standard. By and large, I agree that Islam has not evolved sufficiently to allow scripture and society (my shorthand for this - and no, I did not state that unintentionally) to peacefully co-exist. Of course, there are plenty of countries where this is also true for other religions. My point is that this country can manage this far better than others, and that bringing up the fact that in some parts of the world homosexuals are executed is kind of a non-sequitur as far as allowing the building of a mosque in this city.

cc, did you realize how dumb that comment was as you were typing it, afterward, or has it not sunk in yet?

You have never heard Obama make demands on or calls for action to Americans, business and industry leaders, foreign government leaders, etc.? Really?

lic, is that an answer?

bjw2103
1 day ago
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report abuse "Gays would be executed in a muslim country."

What do you mean "would be"? It's no secret that strict, literal interpretation of the Qur'an reveals some pretty shocking notions. But the same is true in Jewish and Christian scripture. Leviticus also asks that homosexuals be executed. That's kind of the point here - extremism is frightening, but that doesn't preclude a religion from eventually adapting to certain social changes.

i was responding to this post where you were comparing scripture to actual actions, murder, no less.

but i agree, the issue here is not the particulars of islam or any other religion. the issue is respect for the innocent dead.

No, the issue is unmitigated respect for the bigoted misbeliefs of some of the families of some of the innocent dead -- or more likely all the non-families who assign emotions and beliefs to those families.

Or maybe it's just a feral Brooklyn us vs. them mentality that's been passed down from generation to generation.

Why are people still responding to cc? He is a troll - an ignorant bigot to the last breath. A contrarian without a cause. Just wish I didn't even have to see his little greyed out name.

Rep. Pelosi calls for investigation of WTC mosque opposition

"There is no question there is a concerted effort to make this a political issue by some. And I join those who have called for looking into how is this opposition to the mosque being funded,"

Calls to investigate the funding for those proposing the $100 million "Cordoba House" have fallen on deaf ears, though, as New York's Mayor Mike Bloomberg has described such an investigation as "un-American."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2010/aug/17/audio-rep-pelosi-calls-investigation-wtc-mosque-op/

alanhart, stop with the bigot shit, you're embarassing yourself. you have also insulted the new york city boroughs of brooklyn and staten island, for odd reasons that must make sense in your infantile mind, but not so much outside of it.

"or more likely all the non-families who assign emotions and beliefs to those families."

alan, couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, this happens with tons of politicized "issues." Ultimately, people need to decide whether this is more about ensuring a peaceful future or harboring fervent mistrust based on the past. Given that this is not physically on the WTC site, I have a hard time seeing people still up in arms about this 20 years from now, if it gets built.

the state of ohio has also offended alanhart enough to insult every ohioan in clever remark. you are such a dinosaur.

pelosi asks."who is funding the opposition of the mosque?" The Human Spirit nancy

julialg, regardless of who is funding the opposition or the mosque for that matter, it's outrageous that the speaker of the house would so carelessly suggest an investigation of people expressing their point of view. but i'll tell you this much, if the mosque issue has pushed this hopelessly polite (if feisty in thought and print) and genuinely LIBERAL in the ways that count person to such anger, i can't even imagine the reactions of people who are more....tempermental

we are here to make friends and foster peace and understanding. but fuck you. better way to sum it up?

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Mosque-Developer-Says-No-Meeting-Scheduled-With-Gov-100967889.html

"alanhart, stop with the bigot shit, you're embarassing yourself. you have also insulted the new york city boroughs of brooklyn and staten island, for odd reasons that must make sense in your infantile mind, but not so much outside of it."

NEWSFLASH: By "Brooklyn" I also mean the same feral "us vs. them" group-thinkers prevalent in Queens, Long Island, New Jersey and suburban Philly.

As for the meeting with the government, they already did so, and were approved by a vote of 29-1. If Patterson missed the meeting, tough noogies.

Bloomberg, the regime's leader, and the other idiotic left are completely out of touch on the mosque. If this isn't resolved soon the blood bath in November will be 'HISTORIC'.Even the main stream libs I know are foaming at the mouth about the mosque,the health care bill and just about everything this regime has done.

"NEWSFLASH: By "Brooklyn" I also mean the same feral "us vs. them" group-thinkers prevalent in Queens, Long Island, New Jersey and suburban Philly"

but not in mecca or, i don't know, in the offices of imam faisal abdul rauf. what a pathetic joke.

where else are there group-thinkers, alanhart?

Good point, lucillebluth, I forgot Riverdale.

and fat people in ohio, but goes without saying

I hear bloomberg is asking if they would like the top floor of the freedom tower for the Mosque. He stated that this would decrease the chances of another attack.

You have the right to be a racist, but it doesn't mean you should be one.

You have the right to ask for sensitivity, but they have a right to disagree with you on the need for sensitivity. Just because you believe terrorists and Muslims are one and the same, it doesn't mean they have to agree with you and hide in shame as you are demanding.

well if u own it you should be able to do whatever you should be able to do with it legally that you can.Similarly if you are across the street, you should be able to put up pictures of the prophet doing whatever u want so long as that is legal too..the rules are the rules and so should go both ways.

bloody sunday... good song

Would be good to get an environmental impact statement like from the Army Corps of Engineers when big infrastructure is planned.
This is VERY close to a lot of transportation structures including the new Fulton hub and the World Trade Center. So they need to think about this and run all of the studies.

The regime's leader has a right to bow to the saudi king,doesn't mean he has to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY

Your president,the leader of the regime...

Seems like a local issue. I'm not sure why anyone outside of the neighborhood should care. Community Board 1 and the people who live there support it overwhelmingly. I love a few blocks away. I support it.

People in this country are outrageously misinformed about Islam. Why does a community center run by an American Sufi have anything to do with a terrorist attack perpetrated by Egyptian and Saudi Wahabis? They have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

People talk about this as if the entire WTC site is being turned into a mosque. An Islamic community center is being built in the neighborhood, off the site, near pre-existing Mosques. The fact that ignorant people are 'offended' by this is totally irrelevant. And another thing that's irrelevant? Public opinion. Since when do first amendment rights only apply to popular groups?

Let's agree with your point happyrenter that 70% of the American people are ignorant, Why don't the wise intelligent muslims behind the mosque make a noble act ( to the people's ignorant sensibilities) and move the mosque to another location. The ignorant and racist people would appreciate their magnanimity. After all, If the site has no significance, as you so eloquently stated, then moving the mosque is no big deal to the islamic community. Think of all the outreach and bridge building and understanding the islamic community can accomplish with their kindness to the racist Americans.

The builders of the Mosque or Islamic center have no interest in moving it. Their motivation is truly the American one. We don't even need an Amendment for the most basic of American motivations: profit.

if today was august 19 2002, how much chance would this place have of going where its going ?

Another islamic terrorist attack in NYC and all the rats will be running back to the ultra-conservative positions. My main stream liberal friends(not the regimes lunatic left "chicken came home to roost crowd") became veery very conservative for sometime.

yup...and then everyone goes out and buys an american flag...I still have mine up and I dont forget.

"The ignorant and racist people would appreciate their magnanimity."

But continue being racist and ignorant. Kowtowing to racism and ignorance is far more offensive than bowing to another country's king, no matter how outdated monarchist government is.

8 minutes ago
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"The ignorant and racist people would appreciate their magnanimity."

Well, maybe only 69% would be ignorant and raciest after all the kindness from the islamists.

NYC has jumped the shark. Land of the free, home of the brave? I don't think so... land of the acquiescence and home of the surrender monkeys'.

No objective person is denying the mosque is illegal, it's a question of morality and tactfulness - which it does not have.

julialg....it's useless...let them all rant on and on

Just had italian tourists here visiting and they were amazed at how few women wear headscarves or other covering!

They live in a small city in the northern Italy bordering on Austria and their city is swamped with muslims who are given every right the second they set foot on italian soil - all due to the LEFT LEAVING GOVT

They come, have tons of kids and the government TAKES CARE OF THEM. There is already resentment since they get the choice apts. in the city centre.

Their new demand is a mosque! Of course, the government has to provide the land and funding!!
It seems they will not get it..too much opposition.

They are all going into shock at how many children these new immigrants are

left leaning govt.

bjw2103: "Kowtowing to racism and ignorance is far more offensive than bowing to another country's king, no matter how outdated monarchist government is."

Agreed! People don't understand that moving to another site would be 'kowtowing' to racism and ignorance. Moving the site will not make anyone less of a racist or ignorant, it will in fact encourage them.

As a parent and a person who has been a victim of racism, it saddens me to know that two out of three Americans cannot make the distinction between terrorists and Muslims.

"No objective person is denying the mosque is illegal, it's a question of morality and tactfulness - which it does not have."

Actually the Fox news and other polls that asked BOTH should it be built AND does it have a RIGHT to be built, 1/3 say it is BOTH illegal AND not a good idea. As in 1/3 think Muslims do not have first amendment rights.

Time did a poll out today not coincidentally showing 1/3 of Americans think Muslims should not be able to be judges, President, etc.

So in fact, 1/3 of Americans (and a much larger percentage of conservative Republicans) think Islam itself should be illegal.

So I am sick of people saying "No one denies these people have the right....)

Its not true. Even about 25% of NEW YORKERS tell pollsters they do not have the right. Both GOP gubernatorial candidates say it. Gingrich and Palin say it. Etc. 1/3 is not "no one."

jason, your little rant above is filled with distortions. have you learned how to wipe your ass properly yet despite your acumen on world events, politics, racism, religion and the consitution.

What "distortions"?

Are you referring to jason's omission of the key fact that among Manhattan residents polled, 46% support the community center while a mere 36% oppose it?

alan, you are clinging to poll numbers that increasingly are being swamped with countless other (and more recent polls) that suggest otherwise. and interestingly and somewhat amusingly, you turn your nose down at the nyers in the outer boroughs (you know, the feralites). now lets leave that stark irony to the side for a moment - that only progressive thinking manhattanites like yourself are worthy of being counted. think your poll works only in your mind or maybe on your block but its dwarfed by every other poll for NY, NYC and across the nation.

'Gingrich and Palin say it.'
Link please to them (or anyone other than generic polls) denying legal right to build?

by the way, i am still looking forward to using the roller rink.

So, rangersfan, you think that a building in one place -- for now, let's say Manhattan -- should be built or not based on the opinions of all people everywhere in the world? No, I didn't think so.

nope, never said that. i have said from the beginning here they absolutely have the right to build. and i have also said that i am not personally opposed either. its even in my hood. i am only calling shenanigans when i think i see 'em and i did that when you started with your skewed poll numbers.

They're not skewed poll numbers. They're by far the most relevant opinions -- as would be those of the residents of Nantucket about whether a McDonald's should or shouldn't be built on that island.

you mean you spent the last 15 minutes frantically looking for recent polls that would support your numbers and thats the best you could come up with?

Bloomberg and the regime, doesn't think it's appropriate for the government to get involved at all in the rights of the islamists to build their mosque, a stones throw from the site of mass murder.( in islam's name.) However. those stalwarts of laissez faire gov't and individual liberty want to regulate and control almost every aspect of your life. (even how much salt you should have in your diet)

If it makes you feel better to believe that the opinions of people in Lebanon, Kansas are relevant to this, fiiiiiiiine. That's nice.

how about we just narrow it to nyers? that work? oh, no the feralites might invade your pristine views of the world. ah, forget it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100819/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_saudi_justice

ahhh, Just love the islamists......

julialg, this "in the name of Islam" trope is pretty much bs. If someone were to piss on the Vietnam veterans memorial in the name of say, Republicans, would you suggest we curb the rights of anyone registered as a Republican?

No, we GIVE Republicans rights, but all agree that they shouldn't use those rights ... just keep smiling and tap-dancing and eating watermelons and singing happy songs and smiling some more.

These polls are depressing but should have absolutely no relevance to the building of this community center. Since when does the public have a veto on what people can build on land that they own, subject to local regulations. The zoning board approved the community center, so that's that.

As for this idea that they should move it elsewhere because it is insensitive, that's nonsense. There is absolutely nothing insensitive about this community center. My goodness, it is going to have a swimming pool, classrooms, summer camp, and worship space. It is going to have Christians, Muslims, and Jews on the board of directors. The founders were advised and supported by the very successful Jewish Community Center on the upper west side.

Over 1/5th of the world's people are Muslim. Close to 1/3 are Christian. I'm an Atheist and I wish all these people would give up their childish fantasies. Sadly, that's not going to happen. Anyone who follows Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other ancient cult has some loose screws. But they are not all evil or terrorists or anti-American. And it is absolutely moronic to try to lump all Muslims together: Wahabis have about as much in common with Suffis as Quakers have with the Moonies--and yes, the Moonies are Christian.

This whole thing is racist and ignorant. The Republican party has gone completely insane (other than Bloomberg and Christie) and the Democrats are sadly not much better--except for Obama, who has been exactly right on this.

When they build this community center I am going to join and use the pool.

julialg, this "in the name of Islam"

Why did 19 islamist attack America on Sept 11 bjw2103? Why did the islamists in the streets of the muslim world dance and cheer?

One more thing:

Are you people incapable of distinguishing between an Islamist and a Muslim? Is every Christian a Christianist?

" I'm an Atheist and I wish all these people would give up their childish fantasies. Sadly, that's not going to happen"
We have 1 thing in common!!

julialg,

should we round up the japanese and put them back in interment camps because of pearl harbor? perhaps we should deport all of the white people because it is offensive to african americans who had ancestors who were slaves? should the dutch be expunged from manhattan because they intentionally gave smallpox to the native american indians? perhaps it's offensive to have an embassy to he united nations from the netherlands for that reason.

guilt by association--in this case, not even association, just guilt by ignorant false-association--doesn't have a great history.

you really give atheism a bad name. by your logic i must be a racist prick because i'm an atheiest and your an atheist.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Islamist

'When they build this community center I am going to join and use the pool.'

Surely it won't be a co-ed pool?

Thanks Julialg, that's helpful.

Unless you mean by an Islamist an academic expert, you must mean:

Islamist [ˈɪzləmɪst]
adj
supporting or advocating Islamic fundamentalism
n
a supporter or advocate of Islamic fundamentalism

My point exactly. The Sufi Imam building this center is just about the polar opposite of a "supporter or advocate of Islamic fundamentalism." Is a hippie Quaker a Christian fundamentalist?

Do you think gays will be able to join?

"you really give atheism a bad name. by your logic i must be a racist prick because i'm an atheiest and your an atheist."

alanhart,,,, Please correct the grammar.

julia and se, do you know anything? of course gays will be able to join; of course women will be allowed in the pool. this is a totally moderate project spearheaded by a sufi imam. your questions just show that you know nothing: it's like asking if gays can join a quaker meeting because they wouldn't be welcome in a pentacostal house church.

"Why did 19 islamist attack America on Sept 11 bjw2103? Why did the islamists in the streets of the muslim world dance and cheer?"

Because they're idiots. But don't conflate stupid actions with an entire group of people who had nothing to do with it. Just because someone says they're doing something "in the name" of something doesn't mean they speak for everyone somehow affiliated with the latter something.

The anti-Muslim frenzy that Gingrich, Palin, Fox News, etc. have been fanning lately is beginning to seem more and more akin to the way the Jews were demonized back in the 30's...........

http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?external_link=charterforcompassion.org%2F

If I decide to, say, vandalize julia's car "in the name of atheism," by her logic she herself would be guilty of the vandalism of her own car, since she herself is an atheist.

Not a bad analogy: perhaps the Muslim emergency workers and office workers who were injured and died in the WTC attacks are actually guilty of perpetrating the attacks.

Now let's listen to some adults:

Charles Wolf of New York City lost his wife, Katherine, in the attacks. "She was a wonderful girl," said Wolf, 56.

He said he supports the Muslim community center "100 percent."

"I'm not going to brand any group for the actions of a few of the fringe," Wolf said. "The fact that the extremists who did this to us have now moved us in this direction through our fear and hatred, to be exactly like them ... it will come back to haunt us."

Herb Ouida, whose son Todd died in the attacks, says he supports the Cordoba Initiative's project.

"To call it a mosque is not right. It's a community center that includes a prayer center,"

The 68-year-old father from River Edge, N.J., says he is deeply concerned about the tone of some of the opposition to the project.

"What we are doing [when we oppose the community center] is we are saying to the world that we are at war with Islam. And we can't be. I want my grandchildren to live in a better world," he said.

"To say that we're going to condemn a religion and castigate a billion people in the world because they're Muslims, to say that they shouldn't have the ability to pray near the World Trade Center -- I don't think that's going to bring people together and cross the divide."