Mosque near ground zero

On 9/11, Marvin Bethea rushed to the World Trade Center to try to save lives, and has had trouble breathing ever since. The former Emergency Medical Services worker says he had to retire in 2004 when the breathing problems he acquired from toxic materials at the site made it too hard for him to work. But Bethea said he supports the Islamic center anyway.

"Even though my life has changed, I don't hate the Muslims," Bethea, 50, said. "Especially being a black man, I know what it's like to be discriminated against. I've lived with that."

Bethea believes racism is stoking the controversy.

"I understand the families are hurt and lost," he said. But "how do you sit here and condemn all Muslims as being terrorists?" he said. "That's just bigotry and hatred. We're a better nation than that. The diversity that we have, this is what New York is about. But we have such prejudices, some of us. We have a long way to go."

happyrenter.... We are talking about the worst attack on American soil in the history of this once great country. Your tolerant muslims with their "moderate" beliefs should understand the hatred they are creating. What's the bid deal? Move the "community center" to another location. It's only a "community center" for very understanding moderate muslims. They should be happy to accommodate for the'good' of all.

julia, explain how it's for the "good of all" to kowtow to ignorance and racism. That should be a doozy.

I'm being sarcastic bjw2103. This "community center" is a deliberate provocative act from the beginning. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows it.

julia, honestly, this is just psychotic. you make a lot of noise about how awful the attacks were--and yes, they were awful--and then pivot to the idea that people who had nothing to do with the attacks shouldn't build a communnity center two blocks away because some other people don't like the idea. it's a complete non sequitur.

and by the way, i think it should be pretty obvious that these Suffis are not 'creating' hatred. They are suffering from hatred that already exists.

Julia is a true believer. In her own brand of bullshit. Similar to all extremists.

Provocative? Are you being sarcastic again? Are you offended when a tree grows? When someone publishes a book? Building a community center is about as "provocative" as eating a sandwich.

happy, do you know anything? is hamas a terrorist organization? or are you a moderate?

the land of the free

A Muslim woman is suing Disneyland, accusing the company's California theme park of discrimination for telling her she could not serve customers if she chose to wear a headscarf.
Imane Boudal, 26, asked her employers at Disneyland's Grand Californian Hotel several months ago whether they would permit her to wear a headcovering while working as a hostess, a spokeswoman for a worker's union said.

But when no reply was forthcoming, she decided to don the headscarf anyway, timing her decision with the beginning of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, Leigh Shelton, a spokesman for the UNITE HERE Local 11 union said.

"Disney told Boudlal that if she wanted to work as a hostess she had to remove her hijab because it did not comply with the 'Disney Look,'" Shelton said in a statement.

"Disney further advised Boudlal that if she refused to remove her hijab, she could either work a back-of-the-house position where any customers would not see her, or else go home."

Boudlal refused the compromise and is now bringing Disney before the US Equal Opportunity Commission, a federal agency that handles claims of workplace discrimination.

We have to be tolerant of their intolerance..I was in Amsterdam last week. The country will eventually be taken over without a shot being fired. Then shiria law will be the law of the land. The left is suicidal,(and i really don't care about that) except they will pull all of us over the cliff with them. The moderate left will be the last to comprehend the danger. And then, it will be too late.

Julia...any excuse to hate is a good one for you. Hate. Hate. Hate.

Gee, who does that remind you of?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY

cc Did you miss this ? The leader of the regime...

More excuses to hate? Spare us.

"A Muslim woman is suing Disneyland, accusing the company's California theme park of discrimination for telling her she could not serve customers if she chose to wear a headscarf."

Disnyeland is not the government, so doesn't have to respect anyone's First Amendment rights.

As a THEME park, Disneyland can legitimately, in my opinion, tell employees that have to dress consistent with the theme. So if your'e Amish, Hasidic Jew, or Muslim, I guess such a job isn't for you.

Why the hell did Obama BOW to the Saudi King?

"3 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse
Why the hell did Obama BOW to the Saudi King?"

You know why.... And if you don't, You better wake up.

Hilly Clinton hugged Yassir Arafat.

Hillary

So Julia could have yet another reason hate him and everyone else.

happyrenter
about 2 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse julialg,

should we round up the japanese and put them back in interment camps because of pearl harbor? perhaps we should deport all of the white people because it is offensive to african americans who had ancestors who were slaves? should the dutch be expunged from manhattan because they intentionally gave smallpox to the native american indians? perhaps it's offensive to have an embassy to he united nations from the netherlands for that reason.

guilt by association--in this case, not even association, just guilt by ignorant false-association--doesn't have a great history."

accusations of ignorance and such from someone apparently lacking the most basic sense of logic and pattern recognition. these are all examples of rounding up people and forcibly physically moving them to a geographically different location. in other words, those things are not like this thing.

aww, alan, you and dogismy are of the same mind on this. and she thinks this is just like jews in germany in the 30s. how nice. are you going to set her staight on that?

some other neat links

http://www.aina.org/news/20100813120808.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2573292/posts

*interstingly enough, this link where the good imam is identified by name http://www.perdana4peace.org/default.html?aspxerrorpath=/agenda.aspx (surely you remember tham alan)
NOTICE: This domain name expired on 08/18/2010 and is pending renewal or deletion

here's one from national review, legacy of that dimwitted ignoramous, william f buckley
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/243536/raufs-dawa-world-trade-center-rubble-andrew-c-mccarthy

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/ground-zero-imam-i-dont-believe-in-religious-dialogue/

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/rights_and_wrongs_3FCawEtwCAg8nxkPItEHQN

"Thus New Yorkers have a right -- if not the duty -- to express concern about the mosque, given Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf's continuing refusal to identify the sources of the $100 million he proposes to spend on the mosque. Especially since he has said he plans to raise the bulk of it in the Mideast."

They tried to do this with a professor position at Harvard. Harvard eventually gave them back the money.

and while this is technically a local issue, that area was chosen for attack because it was a symbol of america. the usa was attacked, so, yes, the rest of the country absolutely has every right to weigh in.

This all comes back to stricter boarder control.

You never know what kind of grifter will rent a room from you ... and expect three square meals and a payphone in the hallway, at that.

Better that the grifters are local Americans, I think we can agree.

Well, what...ever. But draw the line when your boarder has gentleman callers up to her room, and fails to leave the door open.

Hopefully there is no prostitution involved, but again I think we can all agree that it is better if they are all local Americans rather than the alternatives which is continuing to be causing plenty of problems for the US.

Do you think the regime's leader will accomplish his mission in completely destroying America by Nov 2012?

paulletterman, F for complete lack of creativity. you're not even trying. just look in the mirror and say "yes, i can be a more convincing fake troll"

"aww, alan, you and dogismy are of the same mind on this."

where is helen thomas when you need her

lucillebluth, I had alan going for a while with my misspelling, can't I get credit for that and perhaps upgrade my F to a gentleman's C?

lucillebluth You're witty and quite intelligent. One of the few posts I look forward to reading. A great antidote to alanhart, w67, aboutreadt and all their cohorts.

what about ph41?

putterman=somewhereelse?

Eddie Wilson?

eSuecho?

thank you julialg. but the people you mention are much more knowldgable and certainly more accomplished than i am and probably ever will be. aboutready was great before she got dragged into bizarre personal feuds and things deteriorated for her; alan is a lot of fun, and even w67thstreet, between his fits of terrets, is a truly valuable source. but thanks for the compliment.

they probably also know how to spell knowledgable

All class.... thanks

Gesundheit alanhart.

"To say that we're going to condemn a religion and castigate a billion people in the world because they're Muslims"

Which isn't what happened, but, hey, who needs accuracy in this debate?

"to say that they shouldn't have the ability to pray near the World Trade Center"

Again, not accurate

"I don't think that's going to bring people together and cross the divide."

Neither is blowing up children and supporting (and being supported by) the people who do.

"should we round up the japanese and put them back in interment camps because of pearl harbor? perhaps we should deport all of the white people because it is offensive to african americans who had ancestors who were slaves? should the dutch be expunged from manhattan because they intentionally gave smallpox to the native american indians?"

Nothing like some horribly illogical analogies to make sure we don't have honest debate!

deporting and expunging is suddenly the equivalent of a discussion on an ideal location?

just like 9/11 is the equivalent of smoking deaths.

the folks screaming racism are falling further and further out of reality.

some of the logic and analogies made here are so rediculous, I'm wondering if the screamers really have any point at all.

"w67 - i have been consistent in saying here that i personally do not have an issue with the proposal for the mosque/cultural center/roller rink. that said, the others who have tried to quiet those opposed by calling them racists, bigots, simple-minded folk are ironically and almost comically ndermining their own point of view with their attacks. those opposed have a right to be heard and they generally seem to have legitimate questions - except for those on the extreme."

well said, rangersfan (and no, I'm not being ironic). well put.

swe, who wouldve thunk it - we have come full circle. mazol.

so they are claiming they are entitled to religious freedom to practice a religion that has no freedoms? no freedom for women, no freedom to speak your mind, to choose your spouse, basically no free will. who are we kidding they despise america, our people, and our rights, how convenient. any one who thinks this mosque should be built at that sight, is anti american, there i said it! if you can call people who love this country and its principles not just as an enabler. bigots and racists, than any one for this mosque at this sight is anti american. people seem to forget that with rights come responsibilty and dignity. with all this talk and conflict, they are again accomplishing what they are set out to do, divide and conquer. they do not want to make peace and be friends.

i can't believe we are even talking about this. controversy and falling over each other, creating hatred amongt ourselves instead of the enemies that want to fund and bill this moque/fort.

btw this is private property, who owns it?

> so they are claiming they are entitled to religious freedom to practice a religion that has no
> freedoms?

Tolerance of intolerance is just another form of intolerance.

So...movinup1, you are saying no muslims deserve any freedom of religion, anywhere in the US, since in your view Islam universally does not give women freedom, correct?

Bunch of self serving ninnies
I am 1) human2) us citizen3) nycer 4) atheist.

In that order. If your value set puts your own region or 'people' first, f'k off.

5) extra hairy 6) proud owner of a Rolex 7) proud owner of a Porsche 8) proud owner of a yacht 9) someone who didn't pay last month's rent when he was a renter 10) someone who owned residential property and was in lawsuits with his tenants

Oh no itz all about w67. No more mosquicism? WTF? Oooops I did it again, I played with your heart...

wtf are you talking about?

oh i see. you may be a muslim who loves bagels, and that's cute, but you're still an antisemite. that's been clear for a long time. maybe you don't realize this about yourself, we are always the last to become aware of our own shortcomings.

So, lucillebluth, are you admitting to being an antiantisemite?

alan! yes. yes i am.

This whole project is a security threat to downtown.

The average Muslim is just as family oriented as any other. But more terrorism is committed by Muslims. And although plenty of the terrorism is against Christians, Jews, Indians, most of the Muslim terrorism by the extreme Muslims is against other Muslims. Just pick from so many examples.

This center downtown, not inconceivable that several of the more extreme Muslims, whatever reason, find this as an excuse to commit some act against others. Whether there is immodesty because there is a swimming pool, or because both men and women can use the center, or because it is near a bar, or because it is oopen to non-believers who they view as infidels they don't want there, etc.

That is why this can't work out. Someone said that if they put a Mosque on top of the WTC that would prevent an attack, but the opposite ought to be the worry.

kant did win, didn't he.

somewherelse, exactly. tolerating the intolerance is intolerance. if we allow them to restrict their people within their religion, how is that in accordance with the 1st amendment? do because muslim religion say women have no rights, that over rides american law where women are permitted to vote. their religion will always override american law.
jason, yup..............
just pointing out that these specific muslims that want to build this particular mosque do not care about freedom not religious freedom especially american freedoms, that's why they attacked us! they are using our law against us, to mock us. they want to build this mosque, break ground on 9/11 to prove a point. why does the mosque have to be there, where is the compassion, this is not a place for law. it is a place for respect and compassion for thy neighbor. they are doing a very poor job of gaining respect and trust with an act like this. the 1st amendment wast to have respect for other people not to spite other people.

"if we allow them to restrict their people within their religion, how is that in accordance with the 1st amendment? do because muslim religion say women have no rights, that over rides american law where women are permitted to vote. their religion will always override american law."

you know absolutely nothing--about islam or, it seems, much of anything else. in fact, beliefs and practices in islam are fully as diverse as in christianity and judaism. the catholic church does not allow women in the clergy, do not permit reproductive freedom, condemns homosexuality. the two most dangerous countries in the world for gays, uganda and jamaica, are both majority-christian nations, and, even more incomprehensively, their anti-gay violence has grown out of the involvement of American evangelical leaders active spreading anti-gay views in their countries. Judaism (my own tradition, although I am an atheist) has a long, less-than-proud record on many of these issues, and the fast-growing Jewish traditions today, the ultra-orthodox traditions, suggest that women ought not work outside the home, not have reproductive freedom, sit in the back of the temple or in the balcony, cover their hair and their entire bodies, etc. In Istanbul, Damascus, and Jakarta (not to mention the NYC area, where over 600k Muslims live, including the families of Muslims killed in the September 11th attack) you will see Muslim women working as doctors, lawyers, politicians, wearing mini-skirts, teaching at universities.

then you write:

"just pointing out that these specific muslims that want to build this particular mosque do not care about freedom not religious freedom especially american freedoms, that's why they attacked us!"

you are actually accusing Daisy Khan of participation in the 9/11 attacks. you have evidence to support the claim that this successful American writer, organizer, and interfaith-relations activist is actually a suicide bomber?

or maybe it's her husband, imam faisal, who is currently on a trip sponsored by the american state department to help spread interfaith tolerance in the middle east. he is a prominent suffi leader who speaks at synagogues and churches and sounds like a cross between a unitarian minister and deepak chopra. you think he is the real mastermind behind 9/11.

finally you write:

"the 1st amendment wast to have respect for other people not to spite other people."

this is really your interpretation of the 1st amendment. actually, defending the right of unpopular groups--or, while irrelevant to this case, spiteful groups--is exactly the usefulness of the first amendment. no one has the right to not be offended. and quite frankly, it is hardly the case that the 9/11 families are united in opposition to this mosque. from what i can see a large number of them are vocally in favor of it, including jews, muslims, christians, atheists, and others who lost loved ones.

Says an acknowledged athiest estranged Jew with no family to speak of. So proud.

happyrenter you are out of touch. when was the last time you saw a couple in this country being stoned to death? (Not in Jamica,nor Uganda) but here, or a teenage girl being murdered by her own family?
You are clueless. Even a well respected Muslim professor who teaches islam and muslim culture, said yesterday that is not the way to build a bridge and it is insensitive to build a mosque there. I am sure Daisy and her husband (if i were in their country would be shot for phrasing it that way) had good intentions, kind of, but where will the funding come from,and why are they so adimant about that spot

Happy renter has nothing in his life outside of some money in the bank and a low monthly expense budget.

Wow. Muslims planned to first WTC bombing from GERMANY, and the second from Afghanistan, and the hijakers lived everwhere BUT Manhattan. So the location of this center cannot possibly be "a security threat." If you REALLY think American Muslims are going to plot terror attacks, they could just as easily do it, say from CONNETICUT where the times square bomber lived. That is the most assanine argument of all.

Spot on hrenter/Jason.

Bluth, my best man and my wife's maid of honor may have an issue with your 'assessment' of me. Flmaoz.

Alanhart, that zinger is gonna make her think twice about her own failings, but then again hypocrites never look in the mirror.

some of your best friends are jewish, eh? self hating jews have to count as well, i suppose.

what zinger you talking about? an anti anti semite has a problem with the religious aspect of judaism, but not with irrational personal hatered of jews. didn't we just finish congtatulating ourselves on being godless heathens?

and i thought i told your striving bitchass to address me by my married name. corny cheeseball.

wait, that sentence doesn't look right. an anti anti semite does not hate jews, he has a problem with the religion. there, that's better.

happyrenter
about 10 hours ago

"the catholic church does not allow women in the clergy, do not permit reproductive freedom, condemns homosexuality."

" Judaism (my own tradition, although I am an atheist) has a long, less-than-proud record on many of these issues, and the fast-growing Jewish traditions today, the ultra-orthodox traditions, suggest that women ought not work outside the home, not have reproductive freedom, sit in the back of the temple or in the balcony, cover their hair and their entire bodies"

once and for all, please be clear. do you really equate these things with ACTUALLY cutting off a girl's nose and ears? ACTUAL PHYSICAL stoning? ACTUAL PHYSICAL excecution of gay kids?

please don't say that daisy khan has never personally cut off a girl's nose, or flown a plane into a building, because even you must realize that is just too stupid. or maybe not, who knows.

Believing in islam is like believing in creationism.

Believing in judaislam is like believing in creationism.

So true... And christianity.

Can we then agree alanhart, that the people who believe in islam, are just like sara palin?

The problem is monotheism...
One Deity...you end up with mine is bigger than yours
Polytheism...multiple deities means the deities have to tolerate one another.
The secret to global happiness is to be Pagans.
Pagans have better parties
Pagans have better deities
Pagans have better houses of worship
Jews, Christians, Muslims...it's shopping at Wal-Mart. What ever you need, what ever your problem...we got that.
I'm more a boutique shopper. Got a little money problem...go see the money deity.
Got a futility problem...see the futility deity (you know what she looks like)
Got a RE problem, you see the SE deity
Got the idea?
Why be slaves to one stop shopping

http://islam.about.com/od/creation/a/creation.htm

Sounds just like pailin and the religious right......

ARTEMIS....goddesses would have been so much better for humanity!!

All religions are terrible, but islam is unusally despicable.

lucille writes:

"please don't say that daisy khan has never personally cut off a girl's nose, or flown a plane into a building, because even you must realize that is just too stupid. or maybe not, who knows."

why in the world is this stupid? i am very confused. i am a human being. some human beings eat other human beings. does this make me a cannibal?

my fiancee is a christian. some christians stone gay people. does this make my wife guilty of stoning gay people.

i am jewish. a jewish man assassinated yitzak rabin. does this mean that i am guilty of his assassination?

my mother-in-law is swedish. may swedes aided the nazis. does this make my mother-in-law a collaborator?

my mother is a teacher. some teachers molest their students. does this make my mother a child molester?

what is stupid, lucille, is to demonize daisy khan because of something she didn't do, something she didn't support, something that goes against everything she believes in and has worked for.

it's particularly rich to see lucille ranting about the evils of islam one moment and accusing people of anti-semitism the next. why is it any more acceptable to demonize muslims than it is to demonize jews?

How can you defend islamists ? They don't even believe in evolution.

umm, when did i defend an islamist?

daisy khan certainly believes in evolution, as does her husband. and unlike nearly half of the republican members of congress.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67J45U20100822

'Everything i needed to know about islam i learned on sept 11'

It's a slap in NYC face.

It's a slap in USA face.

Are you still foaming at the mouth about this?

lucille does not rant. lucille tried to have an intelligent conversation about an issue she felt was important. lucille underestimated the stupidity and self righteousness of those to whom she was speaking. lucille apologizes for her error of judgement, lucille is still young and has much to learn. lucille has already learned a valuable lesson, that being a well trained numbers monkey is not an indication of general intelligence. hippieranter, lucille will now remove herself from this conversation, please feel free to declare yourself victorious by default.

hi julialg

hey, how was your rainy weekend?

Happyrenter congrats on winning the argument. Bluth, you came so close to making 'me a white rag wearing Nazi, not. Flmaoz.

Hi julialarge. How are the cats today?

how far will you bend over merely to provoke?

pretty far, i guess.

happyrenter, the whole issue has nothing to do with religion or the First amendment, in my opinion.
The way I see it, it has everything to do with unapologetic and unprovoked deadly violence by one group upon another.
All rational blah blah fails in the face of raw hurt on the part of the wounded group.
I am, like you, a secular atheist Jew. I am asking you this: we know with absolute certainty that most Germans are normal human beings, BUT.
OK?

^^^That makes no sense.

It's very simple. The islamists have no respect let alone sensitivity for anyone else. Only blind fanaticism for their own insanity. One day, the so called free democracies will have to fully confront
their aggression .It should be now, but even after the mass murder of 3000 Americans, the left continues to rationalize the dangers of islam.

Julia, you are having a completely different argument than anyone else here. You are CLEARLY arguing that NO Mulsims should be allowed in the US AT ALL anywhere. There is no other conclusion. You are arguing for mass deprtations and internment camps and possible genocide, its kind of vague. But if 1/10 of what you say is true - and everything you say is about ALL Muslims, then clearly moving this center 2 or 5 or 10 blocks or 100 blocks away won't make one bit of difference.

Its this sort of lunacy that makes an Atheist like me give pause...because PLENTY of people argue that Atheism is the worst thing ever because as they claim Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler were atheists and Charles Darwin invented racism, genocide, etc. This is a daily Glen Beck/fundie argument.

George Bush 1 said we were not citizens, and polls show we are hated more than even Mormans or Muslims.

So when they come for the Muslims, they are coming for me next.

Then the gays, then the "illegals", then who knows who.

Its Glenn Becks Obama scare tactics in reverse.

I'm an Atheist too. You keep rationalizing for the islamists. How many murders will be acceptable? When 2 million are murdered in the name of islam by a few fanatics, will you rationalize also?

right julia. because you are a paranoid who thinks all muslims want to kill you, you want to kill them first?

salut, i have no idea what you are talking about, so i can't respond.

"right julia. because you are a paranoid who thinks all muslims want to kill you, you want to kill them first?"

Typical boring left wing type smear. Avoid the issue/problem and attack.

No, Julia, you are saying ALL Muslims are evil bloodthirsty killers who want to rape and enslave America. you have sai that for 50 posts and running. Ergo, you want them all deported, imprisoned, or forcibly converted, i don't know what. But you have done nothing but try and de-humanize them this entire time.

No one is rationalizing Islam on these boards, certainly not ME. But we ARE rationalizing religious freedom and freedom of speech. It is LEGAL for you to de-humanize millions of Americans, just as it is legal for the KKK and skin-heads and neo-nazis and fundies who want to impose Biblical law and kill abortin doctors and gays etc and and people who claim the income tax is illegal and extreme greens who want to take us back to farming. Etc. People with EXTREME views are free to say whatever, just not act on it.

So yes Muslims are FREE to think and say all the terrible things you say, even though THESE Muslims are not in that camp. But even if they were, so what? It is...say it with me...a FREE COUNTRY.

1 minute ago
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"No, Julia, you are saying ALL Muslims are evil bloodthirsty killers who want to rape and enslave America. you have sai that for 50 posts and running. Ergo, you want them all deported, imprisoned, or forcibly converted, i don't know what. But you have done nothing but try and de-humanize them this entire time."

Show me the post that i said anything like the above. Stop fabricating jason10008.

"No, Julia, you are saying ALL Muslims are evil bloodthirsty killers who want to rape and enslave America. you have sai that for 50 posts and running. Ergo, you want them all deported, imprisoned, or forcibly converted, i don't know what. But you have done nothing but try and de-humanize them this entire time."

Show everyone the post jason10006. Waiting for the post. You have to lie jason10006. Look in the mirror jason10006 at all of your hatred.