Mosque near ground zero

one more itty bitty thing. jason, can we assume you were an equally ardent supporter of dr. laura's recent constitutionally protected right to insult and offend? i know i wasn't, because i say what i mean and i mean what i say, that constitutionally protected act of provocation was no different than this constitutionally protected act of provocation. ok, lucille has left the building.

Don't waste your breath people...to Julia and Lucille Islamists = Muslims.

jason10006 Waiting for the post!!

"Show everyone the post jason10006. Waiting for the post. You have to lie jason10006. Look in the mirror jason10006 at all of your hatred"

yeah, where is that post?

this seems to be the standard operation for the folks who just don't want to argue the real point. I thought I was in the middle in thie argument originally, but all these folks blindly screaming "racism" are just losing the case for their side.

> People with EXTREME views are free to say whatever, just not act on it.

Unless they live in a number of Muslim countries, of course. Ironically, no free speech, but lots of action on extreme views.

"You are CLEARLY arguing that NO Mulsims should be allowed in the US AT ALL anywhere."

doesn't seem clear (or at all) to me.

jason10006 Waiting for the post!! When somebody doesn't agree with the left they will very soon call you a racist and an idiot and other derogatory names. We all know the routine by now. Very boring.

You are nuts juliag, people have to work and do other thaings than post here.

lucillebluth: "can we assume you were an equally ardent supporter of dr. laura's recent constitutionally protected right to insult and offend? i know i wasn't, because i say what i mean and i mean what i say, that constitutionally protected act of provocation was no different than this constitutionally protected act of provocation. ok, lucille has left the building."

Of course she had the right, and her 1st amendments rights were in NO WAY affected or impaired. The first amendment says GOVERNMENT cannot curtail speech. If private organizations are afraid of boycotts or bad publicity, they are free to fire her, or Bill Maher back in 2001, or Kathy Griffin every time she is fired or banned from shows, or Kanye West or anyone else. Because these are private companies. Just the same way they can cancel any TV show for any reason, publish (or not publish) a book, cancel a movie production, whatever.

Non-sequitor. Here we are speaking about gubenatorial candidtates and politicians - i.e. current of future potential members of GOVERNMENT speaking about using legal means to stop the center, or Julia G saying they have no right to build.

A few of your sweeping statemtns about all Muslims:

“Gays would be executed in a muslim country. Women have no dignity But, we have to be tolerant of their intolerance. The left is suicidal,
and I,certainly don't care about them. However, When a plane blows up or crashes into buildings the left causes others to die also.”

“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/world/asia/17stoning.html?_r=1&ref=world
Ahhh The religion of peace. Tolerant of their intolerance”

“Prada... You're totally right about the muslims. The 'left leaning' Americans are completely in denial.”

PRADA: Are all of you so naive.....you don't think that radical islam is planning their next attack on the USA, most likely NYC!!!
Did everyone forget that the WTC was bombed in 1993!!!!
This is a direct quote from someone who is a "nice" muslim, "Everyone will be a muslim"!!
Has anyone ever read Oriana Fallaci's writings? She was correct, she predicted the infiltration of muslims in Europe. They arrive in european countries as immigrants (legal or illegal), and due to the left leaning governments, are given every privilege.
All women should be up in arms agaist their barbaric customs, what they do to women is unspeakable!!”

“Does anyone remember the crowded streets in the middle east with cheering fans on sep 11? Cheering those 19 "radicals"... Cheering the deaths of Americans.”

> We all know the routine by now. Very boring.

yup.

still waiting for that post.

"http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100819/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_saudi_justice
ahhh, Just love the islamists......
Why did 19 islamist attack America on Sept 11 bjw2103? Why did the islamists in the streets of the muslim world dance and cheer?

We have to be tolerant of their intolerance..I was in Amsterdam last week. The country will eventually be taken over without a shot being fired. Then shiria law will be the law of the land. The left is suicidal,(and i really don't care about that) except they will pull all of us over the cliff with them. The moderate left will be the last to comprehend the danger. And then, it will be too late."

Its pretty clear from reading all of that in a row that you think these Muslims are NOT "moderate" since you put that term, in reference to them, in quotes. you also argue against THIS mosque and THESE Muslims by speaking about OTHER Muslims in OTHER places who have nothing whatsoever to do with these, or speak about how the Netherlands will be taken over by Sharia soon, etc.

The ONLY logical conclusion one can make from your sweeping portrayal of ALL muslims i.e. they ALL are Islamists who want to take us over and kill gays and sujegate women and make us follow their law is that we have to get rid of them all now before its too late.

You kind of don't leave any wiggle room, since you make it clear NONE of them or moderate, and clear that ALL Muslims are guilty by association.

"Gays would be executed in a muslim country. Women have no dignity But, we have to be tolerant of their intolerance. The left is suicidal,
and I,certainly don't care about them. However, When a plane blows up or crashes into buildings the left causes others to die also.%u201D%u201CDoes anyone remember the crowded streets in the middle east with cheering fans on sep 11? Cheering those 19 "radicals"... Cheering the deaths of Americans.%u201D

Are those statements untrue jason10006? Was there cheering in the streets on Sept 12 2001 jason10006? Are gays executed in muslim countries jason10006? Do women have dignity in suadi arabia jason10006?

julia,

yes, they are untrue. there are many muslim-majority nations where gays are not stoned (routinely. let's not forget that plenty of gays are murdered right here in the good old usa) and women have significant dignity: turkey, indonesia, morocco, lebanon. even syria has female members of parliament, lawyers, university professors, and a relatively active gay community in damascus.

now, it's true that lebanon, syria, turkey, and indonesia are not muslim countries, just like the united states is not a christian countries. they are secular states with majority muslim populations. but you don't seem capable of distinguishing between personal religious views and the society in which individuals hold those views, so i will just assume that those countries count as muslim to you.

gays are under severe threat in a variety of christian-majority nations: jamaica and uganda are the most famous examples. women are subjected to honor killings by christians as well as by muslims. women are still burnt on funeral pyres by hindus in india.

so, no, your statements are not true.

Julialarge. Don't forget to feed the cats, change dildo batteries and the huge sale on depends at Duane Reade at LIC.

Was there cheering in the streets on Sept 12 2001 jason10006?
jason10006 You conveniently didn't answer this one.

so you at least admit that your other statements were wrong? great.

it is true that some people in some countries cheered the attacks of 9/11. what possible significance that has to daisy khan and imam faisal's desire to built a community center in lower manhattan i don't know. did daisy khan cheer the attacks?

jason10006....thank you for reposting my posts!!

w67thstreet....why resort to such stupid and ignorant personal attacks on someone that doesn't agree with you!!

no i don't admit it jason10006.. I never said every muslim or every islamist. Stop fabricating jason. ( Always twisting and fabricating.)

so you acknowledge that these statements are utterly inaccurate:

Gays would be executed in a muslim country. Women have no dignity But, we have to be tolerant of their intolerance

you could say, there are some countries in which gays are executed, and some of those countries are islamic states and/or have muslim-majority populations. you could say there are some countries in which women have no dignity, and some of those countries are islamic states and/or have muslim-majority populations. but to say that gays "would be" executed in a muslim country, and that women have no dignity in a muslim country, is simply, well, to lie.

and i'm not jason10006, though i do agree with much of what he says.

> (routinely. let's not forget that plenty of gays are murdered right here in the good old usa)

And they get, uh, prosecuted. They aren't the prescutors!

its scary how folks ignore these "subtle" differences.

"gays are under severe threat in a variety of christian-majority nations: jamaica and uganda are the most famous examples. women are subjected to honor killings by christians as well as by muslims. women are still burnt on funeral pyres by hindus in india."

any those are all bad. Why does that excuse evils elsewhere?

happyrenter... I will restate it for you to make you happy. In saudi arabia the protecter of islam and the home of 14 of the islamist murders on Sept 11, gays are executed and women have no dignity.

It's the silly season for blowhard politicians (Gingrich, Peter King, Lazio, et al) to make utter fools of themselves. In the meantime, their lack of tolerance is just what radical Islam likes to see here in the USA. They never learn that their actions play right into the hands of those who hate us.

Julia, you are truly insane. I am not going to refute each point you make one by one, and by NOT addressing them, this does NOT make you correct. However, even if there was dancing on the street - and by all accounts, there was SOME in the occupied Palistinian areas - that still has nothing to do with THESE muslims or any other muslims.

As for your ilk watch this video. Its fun:

"Opponents of the Park51 Islamic community center held a rally yesterday in Lower Manhattan, and a 4-minute video, posted below, reveals the true sentiments behind this campaign. It has little to do with The Hallowed Ground of the World Trade Center -- that's just the pretext -- and everything to do with animosity toward Muslims. "

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/08/23/park51/index.html

Ron Paul interestingly seems to say Julialg et al are a bunch of bigots:

http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08-20/ron-paul-sunshine-patriots-stop-your-demagogy-about-the-nyc-mosque/

happyrenter: "salut, i have no idea what you are talking about, so i can't respond."
Sorry for appearing vague.
To clarify: not all Germans were nazis, we know that, right?
But the silence (AFTER the war) of the ones who weren't implied compliance.
So now the very vocal and violent minority combined with silence of the rest gives the impression of all Muslims condoning terrorism.

...^^^^and is very much opposed to those opposed to Park51.

"The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer."

jason, great salon link, thanks. Here's what I found most salient:

"This is like a metastasized anti-Semitism. That's what we feel right now. It's not even Islamophobia; it's beyond Islamophobia. It's hate of Muslims, and we are deeply concerned.

Can anyone watch the video of that disgusting hate rally and dispute that? That's exactly why I've found this conflict so significant. If Park51 ends up moving or if opponents otherwise succeed in defeating it, it will seriously bolster and validate the ugly premises at the heart of this campaign: that Muslims generally are responsible for 9/11, Terrorism justifies and even compels our restricting the equals rights and access of Americans Muslims, and more broadly, the animosity and suspicions towards Muslims generally are justified, or at least deserving of respect. As Aziz Poonawalla put it: "if the project does fail, then I think that the message that will be sent is that bigotry and fear of Muslims is not just permitted, it is effective."

That's exactly the message that will be sent, and that's what makes this conflict so significant. Obviously, not all opponents of Park51 are as overtly hateful as those in that video -- and not all opponents are themselves bigots -- but the position they've adopted is inherently bigoted, as it seeks to impose guilt and blame on a large demographic group for the aberrational acts of a small number of individual members. And one thing is certain: if this campaign succeeds, it will proliferate and the sentiments driving it will become even more potent. Hatemongers always become emboldened when they triumph."

jason , Ron Paul is an asshole.

bjw2103, do they have to disclose the financing? As in, the same backers that enabled 9/11?

I agree with Ron Paul except on the mosque at ground zero. Just have sensitivity to the people who oppose it. It's only a 'community center', so no big deal to move it.

thank you, ron paul. it's kind of amazing when a crazy like RON PAUL is, along with charlie crist and chris christie, the voice of reason in the republican party. wowza is it silly season or what?

howard dean is against the mosque, probably your hero happyrenter.

i second that, ron paul is the voice of reason on the subject.

These diatribes against the Islamic Community Center are just what the terrorists want from us. It shows we can be just as ignorant as they are instead of better than they are. Keep it up Gingrich, Lazio, Beck and others, Bin Laden and his ilk wouldn't have it any other way.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38673

happyrenter and jason10006 heare is your imam.

"Being better" won't stop the killings or intolerance. Israel has been far better than Hamas and the PLO, yet they continue to murder children. We stand idly by and watch gay-killings, stonings, and the slavery of women, and, unfortunately, examples of our tolerance doesn't do anything to slow it down.

Tolerance of intolerance is intolerance.

Let's see - if we're conciliatory, we are considered weak, and that emboldens the Islamic terrorists. If we oppose something, we are 'ignorant and bigoted' which also emboldens the Islamic terrorists. If we put up walls or enact strict security protocols to protect ourselves, we are discriminatory and racist, which emboldens the Islamic terrorists.

What is left?

We're ignorant and bigoted to the terrorists no matter what we do, they're not really listening. We have to stop pretending their reading our debates and posting.

What is left is saying "any country that teaches hate and intolerance, punishes gays and woman, and supports terrorists" is your enemy.

No more "lets be nice to the countried that do because then they'll get better" because thats simply crap.

Its the Martin Sheen Wooden Soliders doctrine.... if you can build a bomb in your country and bring it to mine, then what you do in your country matters to me.

You can't be our ally if you build madrases and support murder in the name of religion.

Plain and simple.

"Let's see - if we're conciliatory, we are considered weak, and that emboldens the Islamic terrorists. If we oppose something, we are 'ignorant and bigoted' which also emboldens the Islamic terrorists. If we put up walls or enact strict security protocols to protect ourselves, we are discriminatory and racist, which emboldens the Islamic terrorists.

What is left?"

Exactly right. They use our virtues as a weapon against us.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Ron Paul hates Jews, so he finds common cause with Muslims.

The problem with the enemy of my enemy is my friend is that it doesn't work with Jews.
Everybody hates Jews.

The KKK hated the jews, said we were all teamed up with the blacks. And the blacks hated Jews too, somehow they were "the man" too.

Its such a universal you don't get credit for it.

"happyrenter and jason10006 heare is your imam."

He is not my Iman, dumb ass, I am an ahteist. i don't agree with just about ANYTHING he says on relgion. I just agree with his right to say it.

But for point of fact: By the US military's and NATO's own stats, the "collateral damage" HAS indeed killed far more Muslims than has al-Quaeda. Its a simple matter of counting the bodies. Taking that phrase out of context is of course verbatum for your kind - he is not PRO-al-quaeda, the entire portion of that speech was explaining why do many Muslims were angry at the west. Its entirely reasonable that people whose families were killed by stray missles and such would be angry at the west.

I am so tired of these idiots who claim ground zero is 'hallowed ground'. The attacks were nine years ago - GET OVER IT! It's not hallowed ground - it is the world's largest construction site and prime real estate. Just because somebody lost a family member in an area doesn't give them the right to usurp the area surrounding where that person was killed (and disregard the constitution).

And Sarah Palan? She is just an embarrassment to all of America (liberal and conservatives alike). My dog is more qualified to comment on foreign and domestic policy than she is. Mayor of a po-dunk town of 10,000 and governor of Alaska for about year? I may not always agree with Newt Gingrich and others like him, but at least they (usually) put together a reasoned argument. Sarah Palan is incapable of mustering an intelligent thoug

Did you actually just go on a huge rant about how stupid you think Sarah Palin is while mis-spelling her name? Pot, meet kettle.

http://www.facebook.com/sarah.palan

". My dog is more qualified to comment on foreign and domestic policy than she is."
Your dog is more qualified than you. And jason100006 the leader of the regime is doing the killing of muslims now. Plus gitmo is still creating hatred in the arab world. You should be screaming bloody hell. or only when bush is the leader?

You scream enough for everybody.

I think happyrenter is aboutready.

I think julialg has too many tinfoil hats on today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat

info for jones111

I am amazed the conspiracy theory route was not taken!

"And jason100006 the leader of the regime is doing the killing of muslims now. Plus gitmo is still creating hatred in the arab world. You should be screaming bloody hell. or only when bush is the leader?"

When did I scream bloody hell? I pointed out a fact. I did not say I agreed or disagreed with our wars in Iraq or anywhere else. The fact is, NATO and the Pentagon have an actual body count of those killed by stray missles etc. This number is higher than the CIA estimate of deaths by al-quaeda. That certainly does not therefore make me pro-terrorist, anti-bush, or anything else.

And in case you start ranting about me not answering your posts, i will be gone for at least 15 hours so chillax.

But PS - here is the missing context of the speech (notice how the right LOVES to take speeched out of context. Shirley Sherrod anyone?)

"SPEAKER: The question I have, being Christian, and brought up a Christian but having a great tolerance of other religions, having been privileged to visit middle eastern countries and Africa and having been into mosques and understood Muslim people sharing with me their beliefs, all of that sits really well.

The issue that I don't know the answer to is that where in Islam there are fanatical people who teach their young people to do atrocities, like they have done, like our near neighbours and Jamia Islamia have done, and they do that in the name of Islam, they do it because they regard people like ourselves as infidels, etcetera, and they poison the minds of these young boys and girls to commit these atrocities in the name of Islam with a view to gaining eternal reward.

Why is it that the broader Muslim community, who we can co-exist very peacefully with great acceptance of one another's beliefs, why can't the broader community see that that sort of thing doesn't happen and control it and teach their young people that what those people are doing is really poisoning their minds and it is against their Islamic beliefs which you have alluded to earlier?

IMAM FEISAL ABDUL RAUF: Thank you. That's a very important and excellent question. The answer is it is being done. The broader community is in fact criticising and condemning actions of terrorism that are being done in the name of Islam. I just came from a conference in Jordan, Amman where there were over 170 leading Muslim scholars from almost every part of the Muslim world, including some of the most important names like Sheikh Tantawi of Egypt, Sheikh Ali Gomaa, who is the Chief Mufti of Egypt, the Chief Mufti of Jordan, the Sheikh Al-Qaradawi, who is a very very well known Islamic jurist, highly regarded all over the Muslim world. They included fatwas obtained from people like ..... Istani who could not attend but also issued a fatwa condemning acts of terrorism and stating that the attribution of infidel to others is not something that should be done and is outside of the ethics of Islam.

Islamic law, the text of Islam, the Koran is quite explicit on describing Christians and Jews as people of the book, and throughout Islamic history even Islamic scholars in India have actually included Hindus as being people of the book because Hindus were not yet involved - were not part of the society, of Arabic society, at the time of the prophet.

The complexity arises, sir, from the fact that - from political problems and the history of the politics between the West and the Muslim world. We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims. You may remember that the US lead sanction against Iraq lead to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations. And when Madeleine Albright, who has become a friend of mine over the last couple of years, when she was Secretary of State and was asked whether this was worth it, said it was worth it.

What complicates the discussion, intra-Islamically, is the fact that the West has not been cognisant and has not addressed the issues of its own contribution to much injustice in the Arab and Muslim world. It is a difficult subject to discuss with Western audiences but it is one that must be pointed out and must be raised. "

Here are the co-heads of the 9-11 commision saying similar:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/07/AR2007090702050.html

And a top CIA official saying similar:

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/aug/24/local/me-16041

This is all so racist and so clear on that. This neighborhood isn't where people live, and it isn't on the Ground Zero Site, so they shouldn't care if they are being fair about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY

jason 10006 Your leader...

3 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse" This is all so racist and so clear on that. This neighborhood isn't where people live, and it isn't on the Ground Zero Site, so they shouldn't care if they are being fair about it."

Very coherent. Here is a job for you.http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/justice-department-seeks-ebonics-experts

http://twitter.com/alqaeda

We've truly lost our way. Bigotry disguised as compassion...cheered on by a willfully,(and woefully), misinformed public that's whipped into a frenzy by the Limbaughs and Hannitys whose success depends on the anger they breed. On a side note; you ditto-heads DO know how rich those guys are...and that the tax increases they get you to rail against are going to hit them a lot harder than they'll hit you, and will help keep your roads paved and your firehouses open, right? And don't get me started on Abe Foxman and the ADL. When Newt Gingrich spewed his Nazi comparison; you have to wonder if Abe realized how great an error he made. Yes...he's now joined the bigots he's spent a lifetime exposing. Rick Lazio goes on Meet the Press and talks about the radical Imam, and says he should just build his Mosque somewhere else. Well, if he really, truly is a radical terrorist sympathizer, why is it OK for him to build a Mosque somewhere else? Isn't the idea to get the radical terrorist sympathizers out of here, and to let everyone else live and worship in peace? All you people who are afraid of this...how many of you watched Daisy Khan on This Week yesterday? How many of you have read her husband's sermon at the Daniel Pearl memorial, where he says the he is also a Jew? Watch the interview and read the sermon, and then tell me they're not the people we should be encouraging rather than demonizing. And you're dreaming if you don't think that if these loons succeed at stopping this center; then the next time it will be the Jews...or the Catholics...or whoever the loudest pea-brains single out next time. No wonder the rest of the world laughs at us.

Isn't this country and ESPECIALLY New York, all about FREEDOM as in Freedom of Enterprise and Freedom of Religion. You bigots need to STFU and respect property rights. Especially so close to wall street. Is it your land? Do you own the air rights? No? Then STFU.

But also, the point of this whole 'controversy' is to drive TV ratings. It's a garbage non issue that you have to be brain dead and damaged to spend to much time thinking about. The state should not and probably cannot stop it without an immediate court challenge that would not ever be heard by a high court because it is so transparently an open and shut case: They get to build the Mosque. End of Story.

julialg you are a dumb jerk. What does Obama have to do with anything here. This is all local. Your only logic against this is either racist or political because you don't like the president. Like Spartacus points out, Rush makes money off this and others get political points for this. But what do you get out of pretending that Bin Ladin is behind this? Stupid

Anyone who watches Fox News with a straight face after watching this "Daily Show" is either evil or stupid.

"Fox News' failure to report on its [OWN] link with dangerous Saudi money is either evil or stupid. Airdate - 08/23/2010"

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap

Hmm, coming from someone who gets his talking points from Comedy Central.

those aren't talking points...they are FACTS.

printer, the major difference between Comedy Central and most other news outlets is that one is intentionally funny.

I don't know why but I am so dispassionate about this topic, I guess I should be more so as a New Yorker?
In essence, I am not necessarily against the building 2 blocks from Ground Zero but do feel it is a bit insensitive and poorly handled, and I believe it would be wiser to at least consider moving it somewhere else, not because of the ones that are against it, but because of the banner and cause they claim it is for, building bridges.

The moderate islamists behind the community center should make a good will gesture to the country they love. Move the center to another place for harmony and reconciliation. Show us, the racists and ignorant that you only want to build bridge. Educate us, it's a great 'teachable moment'. Demonstrate, that the religion of peace has nothing in common with that fringe radical element that viciously murdered 3000 of your fellow Americans. We, will be incredible grateful for your magnanimity.

NPR this morning had a new story that I thought made an interesting point. It was that all this hatred toward the mosque only incentives terrorists since they can show Muslims outside the country that Americans indeed hate Muslims. They also pointed out that all this drama has been a good thing for extremists and has been noted in Muslim chat room discussions.

Ironically by us pushing out moderate Muslims, we are only leaving room for extremists in society.

"Tolerance of intolerance is intolerance"

it's so true.listen a bit more to somewhereelse

Just ask yourself this:If it was one of you beloved one that was murder in 9/11 would you still agree to have the mosque down there?

So....does that mean that intolerance of intolerance is tolerance?

"What does Obama have to do with anything here" Chicktaylor, if you have read a bit more the news you would not ask this question.

"Just ask yourself this:If it was one of you beloved one that was murder in 9/11 would you still agree to have the mosque down there?"

It's your lucky day: my sister was killed in the south tower. You people should be ashamed of yourself, trying to use the memory of murdered people to justify your bigotry and hatred. Not only do I support the building of this community center, after hearing Newt Gingrich's hate speech I wrote a letter to the developer offering them a large donation.

I came to street easy this afternoon because I am looking for an apartment for my mom. She wants to live closer to her grandchildren, including my sister's two kids. The last thing I expected to see on a real estate website was my sister's memory being abused and coopted like this.

Shame on you.

I am sorry for your loss

condojake, the problem with that argument, is that I can just as easily argue that by constructing a huge Muslim center and Mosque so near to Ground Zero, one possibly funded by large amounts of money from not so moderate sources, the extremists will argue that their ultimate plan of spreading Islam and the coming caliphate to the western world is successful, which will encourage them further.

During the Indonesian tsunami/floods, western nations poured tremendous resources into relief for the victims. Besides the basic humanity of such actions, it supposedly had the benefit of showing how supportive we are towards moderate Muslims. I've yet to see the dividends on that front.

Ditto when Israel unilaterally withdrew from southern Lebanon and Gaza, or when NATO intervened in the Balkans.

See, the problem is that extremists are, well, extreme, and can't be moved by actions the way normal people are.

"t's your lucky day: my sister was killed in the south tower. You people should be ashamed of yourself, trying to use the memory of murdered people to justify your bigotry and hatred. Not only do I support the building of this community center, after hearing Newt Gingrich's hate speech I wrote a letter to the developer offering them a large donation."

Look, people can be against the mosque without being racist and full of hatred. You're doing what you hate about gingrich. People can have legitimate disagreements. Stop being so righteous.

"condojake, the problem with that argument, is that I can just as easily argue that by constructing a huge Muslim center and Mosque so near to Ground Zero, one possibly funded by large amounts of money from not so moderate sources, the extremists will argue that their ultimate plan of spreading Islam and the coming caliphate to the western world is successful, which will encourage them further."

Totally agree - people will spin this either way, so we really shouldn't worry one way or the other. The case will be made regardless.

"Tolerance of intolerance is intolerance"

That's impressively trite and utterly useless.

"Show us, the racists and ignorant that you only want to build bridge. Educate us, it's a great 'teachable moment'."

You've made the same facetious "point" over and over. It still makes no sense. There's no real reason to embolden those who are ignorant.

rumor has it that there is a house of worship VERY close to the hallowed grounds of ground zero, whose religion has an extremist group under their umbrella that has been systematically molesting and raping children - not only in this country but worldwide - for hundreds of years! the hierarchy of this religion has aided and abetted this extremist wing (some think they may even condone it) for quite some time. once we deal with this mosque situation i think we should turn our attention to ridding our great country of this group and all of their places of worship! i am sure that this religions contains millions of moderates that just want to practice their religion and live and let live but their association with these child rapers and molesters cannot be tolerated! there is no place in america for people like that. 3000 people died at ground zero and many more lives were affected by the atrocity, but hundreds of thousands of lives have been affected by this child-molesting cult!

"Tolerance of intolerance is intolerance"

for those who cannot understand like bjw2103.

for example someone seeing someone else being beaten and do nothing about it, he is the same as the as the sadistic one.

example from history: what the jews endured by the nazis while everybody watched and did nothing to help them (or it took them a while to).

this is not useless.

way to be classy, julia.

john, i'm so sorry about your sister--not that i expect you are going to read the rest of this conversation.

switel, what you are talking about is not intolerance. you are talking about actual crimes. beating someone up is a crime, and you are right, we all have a responsibility to intervene to prevent criminal activity. jews were not the victims of a 'lack of tolerance' under the nazis--it's kind of funny to even have to explain this to you. they were the victims of actual discriminatory laws, of violence, of forced labor, and of mass murder. the crime was genocide, not intolerance.

if someone--perhaps someone on this thread--says "i hate muslims," what am i supposed to do, beat her up? should she be locked away in a cell? intolerance is not a crime, and it is one of the hallmarks of a civilized society that we DO tolerate intolerance. we should forcefully condemn intolerance, such as your intolerance of the moderate sufis who want to build this community center. but we have to tolerate that intolerance or we become barbarians.

printer - your last sentence says it all right there. Whether a mosque is created or not, it's not going to prevent extremists. But not having a mosque can prevent a moderative voice in taking shape.

If we do not like a group, we find their faults and forget the good things they do. That's just how humans are. Everyone who doesn't like the mosque just brings up extremists and that's it. In the same way, extremeists hating the US will not bring up our good qualities but will bring up our protest to the mosque.

happyrenter is aboutready.... Why the name change?

julia i have been on street easy for over a year, and, i am sad to admit, there are a few too many posts littering the message boards from when i was on the hunt for a coop. i bought one at the end of last year, now ia looking for a beach house. is your life really so empty that you spend your time accusing people of concocting multiple identities on anonymous message boards?

when you aren't busy berating victims of the 9/11 attacks, that is.

"julia i have been on street easy for over a year, and, i am sad to admit, there are a few too many posts littering the message boards from when i was on the hunt for a coop. i bought one at the end of last year, now ia looking for a beach house. is your life really so empty that you spend your time accusing people of concocting multiple identities on anonymous message boards?"

Why respond? You sound and dumb as she.

Very coherent. Here is a job for you.http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/justice-department-seeks-ebonics-experts

I never said the crime was intolerance. The crime was GENOCIDE because of PURE HATRED and yes you don't have to explain this to me.

"intolerance is not a crime, and it is one of the hallmarks of a civilized society that we DO tolerate intolerance"

In Denmark they did not tolerate any hate against the jews in WW2, that's a civilized society.

because of intolerance, because of hate, people die. if you tolerate those that hate, you hate as well.

so don't talk to me about becoming barbarian.

that's all.

so what do you propose we do to intolerant but non-criminal people? what should i do to you, since you are intolerant of moderate sufi american citizens?

and just so you know, the danes certainly did tolerate "any hate" against jews in world war ii--they tolerated a lot of hate, and danish society was essentially just as anti-semitic as, say, the netherlands and france. what they did not tolerate was the murder of jews, and even anti-semitic danes joined with the king, the police, and others to ferry jews to safety in sweden.

yes jake - this whole episode is extremely disheartening. Each 'side' seems to dig its heels in deeper each day. The pro side brands all opposition ignorant bigots and creates straw man arguments about the constitutional right to build. The anti side brands all opposition as anti-american extremists and creates straw man arguments about secret terrorist cells.

I know that there have been some closed door attempts by the Imam and his wife to deal with some of the family of 9/11, but I am puzzled by their overall lack of attempts to reach out, or to agree to sit down with those like Patterson and Archbishop Dolan who have sought to bridge the divide.

All what I am saying is that it's really weird that where so many people were murdered we open a mosque.
Why not open a peace center for all religions? why not promote mutual understanding? and I am for a mosque but just not there. it's very insensitive.

"for example someone seeing someone else being beaten and do nothing about it, he is the same as the as the sadistic one.

example from history: what the jews endured by the nazis while everybody watched and did nothing to help them (or it took them a while to)."

switel, there's no way "he is the same as the sadistic one." I do believe that people should stand up and speak or act (and especially in the cases you bring up, when witnessing a crime, which as hr pointed out is different from what we're mostly talking about here anyway). But the fact is most people are not leaders; most people are too frightened for themselves; most people have been at one point in time scolded/hurt by "getting too involved" and turn the other way. I don't find those reasons and actions at all noble or honorable, but it's an inescapable truth that this happens all the time, and you simply cannot equate it to the actions and intentions of someone willfully and purposefully harming or hating others. It's far too reductive and punitive. Which is the long-winded way of explaining why that original sentence is so trite.

not to mention the fact that beating someone up if physical violence. intolerance is an emotion.

you asked what am I proposing, I answered. This is your reaction?

and my answer is:

i have no idea what that has to do with 'tolerance of intolerance,' other than to say the people who want to build this community center should be tolerated, and have been tolerant. i think it's a great idea to build a center for all religions--why don't you go buy land and raise money to do so. this is a neighborhood with many houses of worship, including st. paul's chapel and trinity church, which are even closer to the former world trade center than the proposed muslim community center. there is no reason why a muslim community center should not take its place in the neighborhood beside religious institutions for christians and jews.

i take it for granted that you are not trying to equate the building of a community center with genocide and physical assualt--your two examples of 'intolerance' that should not be tolerated.

printer - i agree with you and your take on the imam but I don't think he can do much to convince people who oppose the mosque. Though I'm hoping in the long run he will try to reach out to the community and make the community space a space for the community.

personally i think too many people are taking advantage of this whole situation. I don't get what Patterson is trying to do; he is not going to give state land w/o a huge payment to the state so why would the Imam agree to any deal? I also do not think Archbishop Dolan can do much; the issue is not how the place is used (people are already praying there now), it's about allowing a new building that does not conform to the zoning to be in the neighborhood.

Why the name change aboutready? How was your vacation?

You are completely nuts.

alanhart... You're very good at grammar. Don't you think happyrenter is aboutready? They have very similar syntax. Plus, aoutready always claimed to be a very happy renter.

julialg
27 minutes ago
alanhart... You're very good at grammar. Don't you think happyrenter is aboutready? They have very similar syntax. Plus, aoutready always claimed to be a very happy renter.

cc Don't you agree?