Mosque near ground zero

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/26/AR2010082605233.html

The liberals are intolerant of any differing opinion or idea .

so, now you're a liberal.

Juliag - thanks for the link - Krauthammer nailed it.

BJW
"truthskr, great post, even if I don't agree 100%. It's a shame that I have to point out a well thought out, non-aggressive post, but this thread is largely devoid of any of those, so I feel like I have to thank you. I do agree that from a pr perspective, this could be handled better, but that is my only major gripe with this, and that's nowhere near enough for me to decidedly oppose it."

I appreciate the praise. ANd as I said, I don't oppose the center either.
However, the adverse reaction by 9/11 victims/family of victims, local workers and residents gives me pause (could care less about everyone else)
Would like to see efforts to change their mind(s) first without lumping them together with the rest of the haters or the other agenda people on the opposition line.

SOme help from the group putting up the center as well. Breaking away from the standard "we are not those muslims" and then quiet on everything else would really show something.

Start with the easy one...Just a public denouncement of Al Qaida and what they stand for.
As good a place as any to start the vocal opposition and stand tall.
The start of an actual real bridge.

Julia,

Thank you so much for linking to Krauthamer's article--it is extremely enlightening. Krauthamer links these issues:

opposition to the mosque/community center at ground zero
opposition to equal rights for gays and lesbians
support for the arizona immigration law, including random stops of individuals who the police perceive to be potential illegal immigrants

he takes liberals to task for arguing that opposition to equal rights for gays grows out of homophobia, opposition to equal rights for muslims from islamophobia, and opposition to rights for latinos out of xenophobia and racism.

it is very useful to see hatred and fear of gays, latinos, and muslims linked so honestly and forthrightly in this op-ed, since they are three faces of the same ugly bigotry.

aboutready... Does your husband have any new lawsuits against American companies?

truthsker,

imam rauf has publicly denounced al qaeda, repeatedly, and for many years. so that's already been done.

When this thread hits 1,000 comments, I will open up my vintage bottle of white wine. Keep up the good work!

mutombonyc, why did you think it crazy to make that connection?

yep happy - its so easy to label anyone who disagrees with you a racist - it requires no actual thought, and let's you feel all smug and righteous. interesting how you and your ilk tell us that we need to 'understand the grievances of the fanatical Islamists and the role our policies play in their slaughter of innocents', but for those white Americans who disagree with you, you just label them racists.

lucillebluth It was a great example. You don't need approval from the rabble.

you know printer, it's easy to label people anything--like to label muslims 'islamists' who are enemies of the united states. but when a person actually is a racist, or when a law actually does reflect homophobia, why shouldn't racism and homophobia be called out?

"yep happy - its so easy to label anyone who disagrees with you a racist - it requires no actual thought, and let's you feel all smug and righteous. interesting how you and your ilk tell us that we need to 'understand the grievances of the fanatical Islamists and the role our policies play in their slaughter of innocents', but for those white Americans who disagree with you, you just label them racists."

Better said than Krauthammer.

i assume you acknowledge that racism, homophobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, anti-semitism, etc. exist and have pernicious effects on public debate and public policy. ought they not be called out?

as for "understanding the grievances of the fanatical islamists," i daresay that our society should try understand what motivates our enemies, whether they be islamists or anything else. that's obviously critical to any sort of effective response.

"Would like to see efforts to change their mind(s) first without lumping them together with the rest of the haters or the other agenda people on the opposition line."

That would be extremely helpful, truth.

Its the lumping and the really lousy assumptions that are the worst part of this.

"yep happy - its so easy to label anyone who disagrees with you a racist - it requires no actual thought, and let's you feel all smug and righteous."

BINGO

lucillebluth,

Your all muslim rant.

so, back to the issue at hand.

how big is the no mosque zone?

as for "understanding the grievances of the fanatical islamists," i daresay that our society should try understand what motivates our enemies, whether they be islamists or anything else. that's obviously critical to any sort of effective response.

aboutready Is that from the oppressed studies department at Yale?

julialg, aboutready who I call AR is not here.

I am astonished not one used the conspiracy theory to defend muslims.

my what?

misguidedhippieranter,

"In 2001, in the 9/11 attacks after hijacked Flight 175 penetrated through a tower of The World Trade Center, part of the plane's landing gear and fuselage came out the north side of the tower and crashed through the roof and two of the floors of the Burlington Coat Factory at 45–47 Park Place, between West Broadway and Church Street, (600 feet (180 meters)) north of the former World Trade Center. The plane parts destroyed three floor beams, and severely compromised the building's internal structure. Nine years later the building was part of a national controversy, as efforts to build a Muslim center and mosque at the site as the "Cordoba House" sparked a national controversy.["

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlington_Coat_Factory_Warehouse_Corporation

just a tiny bit farther

mutombonyc, you clearly want to, so go for it.

LB,

Your attack on muslims.

wtf are you talking about?

lucille,

did you read my post? as i said, debris from the buildings fell across lower manhattan and parts of brooklyn and new jersey. so if you object to mosques being built within the area covered by debris you will have to demolish houses of worship all across the region.

....what about not building new ones on the specific sites where plane debris and human remains had landed? can we just do that or do we HAVE to go out and demolish the other mosques?

LB,

Forget about it!

Happyrenter
Fair enough, but the double speak has to stop. You know like one quote for NY Times another for Al Jazeera.

A quote like this;
"Throughout my discussions with contemporary Muslim theologians, it is clear an Islamic state can be established in more than just a single form or mold. It can be established through a kingdom or a democracy. The important issue is to establish the general fundamentals of Sharia that are required to govern. It is known that there are sets of standards that are accepted by [Muslim] scholars to organize the relationships between government and the governed."

yeah it would be much more respectful of the dead to build a strip club there.

and again with the incorrect statements: human remains landed there? i thought it was the fuselage.

"yeah it would be much more respectful of the dead to build a strip club there."

Were there strippers among the 19 murderers?

you are really a bore, you know that?

yes, when religious zealot strippers organize, declare war on the infidels and kill 3000 civilians minding their own business on a perfectly ordinary morning, i promise to speak out against their proposed super strip club. with a swimming pool!

truthskr i read imam rauf's book last night. do you know what he writes? that the united states is already a muslim nation and that the declaration of independence and the constitution embody the values of islam. rauf believes that "the fundamentals of sharia" are embodied by the government of the united states as created under our constitution.

this is the danger of taking quotes our of context to serve a particular agenda.

he is not calling for a change in american government and way of life. he is calling on muslims to interpret their religion and law as he believes it should be interpreted--and under his interpretation american-style democracy is already an embodiment of sharia.

actually lucille:

http://articles.sfgate.com/2001-10-04/news/17621377_1_marwan-al-shehhi-big-spenders-las-vegas

"i assume you acknowledge that racism, homophobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, anti-semitism, etc. exist and have pernicious effects on public debate and public policy. ought they not be called out"

Absolutely.

However, screaming it when its not actually true is also ignorant and/or evil (especially since it means actual racism can more easily hide), and that too should also be called out.

that's some remarkable speed reading, happygilmore. does the imam give any examples of a muslim nation that embodies the fundamentals of sharia? really curious, have not and have no intentions of reading this book. summerize, will'ya, doll?

and, following that logic, why does he continue to call himself a muslim? seems that since we're already living under sharia, he should just become a constituional scholar.

i agree somewhereelse. but it is tiring that whenever someone says "you know, it's not right to deny gays the right to marry. the only justification for that is homophobia," someone like krauthamer and julia says "there go those liberals, accusing everyone of bigotry."

sometimes there is bigotry.

The islamists, just like Barrack Hussein Obama will lie to get their trojan horse in to America. The mainstream left better wake up.

lucille, i have no idea what you are talking about, so hard to answer. are there not christian clerics who support american government and believe it embodies many of the values of christianity? should they cease to be christians?

the book is called "What's Right With Islam Is What's Right With America." He is quite critical of many muslim-majority nations, but most of the book is about the united states and his belief that american values and muslim values (as he understands them) can not only coexist, but in fact are quite similar.

since you aren't going to take time out of your busy schedule of denouncing imam rauf to actually read his book, hopefully that will help you.

100 stories up, someone could have jumped, escaping the flames, and landed at Park51. So, no that place is not the right place for this level of insensitivity.

As for the strip club, was the US and NYC attacked by Hooters Airlines? I don't think so.

It's nice that you are an idealist. But at some point you need to enter the real world. There are enough people who have legitimate sensitivities toward this. And there is zero need for this location so close by.

You pointed out that the location is already being used for worship. And you know what, if this location were simply another low key house of worship, it probably wouldn't have garnered attention. But instead, the organizers need to build a huge middle finger to the community. There is no need for that.

No aboutready, Don't smear me., I believe gays should be able to get married.

hey, i believe that too!

Do the islamists believe in gay marriage aboutready? Are the islamists homophobic aboutready?

then why did you approvingly cite that article?

i know you don't, happy. and that's ok.

the leading opponents of the mosque are homophobic, that's for sure. daisy khan is a strong supporter of gay rights--but then, she isn't an islamist.

you know i don't what? i am confused.

"then why did you approvingly cite that article?" Because the people who don't believe in gay marriage aren't necessarily racist or bigots or homophobic like the left believes.

oh for fuck's sake, happy, krauthammer is mocking simpletons like you!

happy - let's not turn this into a gay marriage debate - besides, I don't think it would be much of one b/c we all seem to agree that they should have the right. That said, I don't think that all those who oppose (which includes President Obama), are homophobic. There are reasonable arguments against, I happen to believe that the arguments for are stronger.

indeed, but your intentions are good

although, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. so, there's that.

"The islamists, just like Barrack Hussein Obama will lie to get their trojan horse in to America. The mainstream left better wake up."

There's nothing mainstream, right or left, about anything in that sentence. Trojan horse? You must be joking.

deplucha
9 minutes ago
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"100 stories up, someone could have jumped, escaping the flames, and landed at Park51. So, no that place is not the right place for this level of insensitivity.

As for the strip club, was the US and NYC attacked by Hooters Airlines? I don't think so.

It's nice that you are an idealist. But at some point you need to enter the real world. There are enough people who have legitimate sensitivities toward this. And there is zero need for this location so close by.

You pointed out that the location is already being used for worship. And you know what, if this location were simply another low key house of worship, it probably wouldn't have garnered attention. But instead, the organizers need to build a huge middle finger to the community. There is no need for that."

Please send this to the elitist condescending mayor.

what is the non-homophobic reason for wanting to deny equal rights to gays and lesbians?

probably to be found somewhere in the vicinity of the non-islamophobic reason for wanting to deny daisy khan the right to build a community center on her own land because she's a muslim.

my flu has cleared, no more time to waste on streeteasy. enjoy.

bjw2103,

Do you know who lucillebluth & julialg are? Very new and vocal.

"Start with the easy one...Just a public denouncement of Al Qaida and what they stand for. "

truthskr, if what happyrenter says is accurate, then it's already happened. I'm not surprised much of the media hasn't made this a very well known fact either - "Guy thinks Al Qaeda is bad" is not exactly a standout headline anymore.

"my flu has cleared, no more time to waste on streeteasy. enjoy." aboutready got owned and is scurrying away!!!!

> "the only justification for that is homophobia," someone like krauthamer and julia
> says "there go those liberals, accusing everyone of bigotry."

Well, because its not the only justification. The premise is just bad.

> sometimes there is bigotry.

As I said several times already in this issue. Take a look above.

And I'd say in the gay marriage case, its mostly that.

But it doesn't excuse ignorantly making false accusations... and the false accusations make going after the real bigotry harder.

The folks who do this just hurt their case.

lucillebluth used to be alex09

Far too many posters here are simply arguing for argument's sake, and mostly about the claim (that only one person here has made) that anyone who opposes this mosque is racist. I don't think that's fair; I think people who oppose it really need to ask themselves what's driving their motivations and how much of that actually relates to these people. But there's no question that for a lot of the opposition, this is about racism, bigotry, and xenophobia. It's an inescapable truth.

and to make that clear.... you just hurt your own case.

To say the only reason to oppose the mosque is bigotry is ignorant, nonsensical, just plain unintelligent.

i'm not new, i used to go by a different name. until the operation.

"That said, I don't think that all those who oppose (which includes President Obama), are homophobic. There are reasonable arguments against, I happen to believe that the arguments for are stronger."

Agreed, too. And I am 100% sure the folks who just scream homophobia just make things worse for everyone.

I'm 100% for equal rights for gays. I think I might just be against marriage for anyone.

you're right, bjw2103. what about "guy thinks hamas is kind of ok" and hamas hearts him, too. how does that sit with you? or is it ok, since hamas is killing the jewish aggressors, and some people might be cool with that?

"To say the only reason to oppose the mosque is bigotry is ignorant, nonsensical, just plain unintelligent."

Right. But you're still not answering the question; you just keep inanely repeating your bashing of a fairly simplistic position. Which Muslims do you view as intolerant of intolerance? Bueller...

Did you have the operation in your house?

> since hamas is killing the jewish aggressors

i laughed so hard I felt out of my chair on that one.

"what about "guy thinks hamas is kind of ok" and hamas hearts him, too. how does that sit with you?"

Sorry, can you point to that story? I find much of what Hamas does reprehensible, but I think that statement, if anyone did say it in the context you're implying, is still far better than saying something like "Hamas is pure evil."

it was cheaper that way

"Far too many posters here are simply arguing for argument's sake, and mostly about the claim (that only one person here has made) that anyone who opposes this mosque is racist. I don't think that's fair; I think people who oppose it really need to ask themselves what's driving their motivations and how much of that actually relates to these people. But there's no question that for a lot of the opposition, this is about racism, bigotry, and xenophobia. It's an inescapable truth."

Try to comprehend this bjw2103. Most people are against the mosque because islamist murderers attacked the USA on sept 11 and slaughtered 3000 Americans. We think it's extremely insensitive to build a mosque at that site. We embrace all muslims of good faith and implore them to enjoy their devotion of islam all throughout this great country. JUST DON'T BUILD A MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO.

"i laughed so hard I felt out of my chair on that one."

Now if you'd only fall off your high horse...

thanks uwsmom! only girls pay attention.

BJW
Of course, but what's accurate anymore. You still hear arguments over "Wiped off the map" vs "wiped from the pages of time." I think everyone understands both.

And saying it once or twice closes the book? When you ask a girl to marry her and you tell her you love her. Isn't that expected? Then once again on the honeymoon....But here you are 7 years later and I don't bring you flowers, I don't tell you I love you anymore cause Im off the hook, I already said it....or might you wonder... does he still love me.

Bridges need maintenance, and they most certainly need attention. This bridge needs the army core of engineers right now....just sayin :)

I am shocked the conspiracy theory has not been used.

"We embrace all muslims of good faith and implore them to enjoy their devotion of islam all throughout this great country. JUST DON'T BUILD A MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO."

Textbook example of speaking out of both sides of your mouth. All throughout, huh?

I'm not against convents or christians, but I don't want one next to the concentration camp that burned by family. Somehow, even the pope got this.

I wonder if Mel Gibson did.

truthskr, I certainly agree with that. The question is (and I suppose this would apply to marriage), how much is enough? I don't think anyone will ever agree on that, unfortunately.

mutombonyc
2 minutes ago
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just say it! it was the killer strippers. we all know this, and if we don't we are just fooling ourselves.

"Textbook example of speaking out of both sides of your mouth. All throughout, huh?"

You're an idiot...

bjw2103, what did you think about my n-word analogy?

What is wrong with all of you? I came on here a couple of days ago and saw you besmirching the memory of my sister and everyone else who died on 9/11 with your un-American ignorance and your xenophobic hatred of Muslims. I asked you to stop and you went right on doing it. What in the world do you think these good people trying to do something for their community have to do with mass murder? What do you think you can possibly accomplish by fighting against their mosque? I'm not afraid to call you racist bigots. That's what the hell you are. And you are un-American too.

julia, nice. Let me know when you can come up with an "argument" that doesn't consist entirely of name calling.

lucille, I'll go back and look for it - I missed it the first time (I know, I know, we're only at 900 posts, right?).

was it these strippers? (no pictures)

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100827/D9HROVM00.html

"What is wrong with all of you? I came on here a couple of days ago and saw you besmirching the memory of my sister and everyone else who died on 9/11 with your un-American ignorance and your xenophobic hatred of Muslims. I asked you to stop and you went right on doing it. What in the world do you think these good people trying to do something for their community have to do with mass murder? What do you think you can possibly accomplish by fighting against their mosque? I'm not afraid to call you racist bigots. That's what the hell you are. And you are un-American too."

A lot of people were/are affect by the massacre on Sept 11. Some just don't use their grief to hammer people with different view points into submission. If you don't like the discussion don't look at it. Quite frankly, I could care less what you think.

Some use their grief to try to hound good people off their own property. Some with no grief whatsoever try to hound good people off their own property. And some people are so blinded by hatred they can't even step back and consider the feelings of people who's family died in that attack. Feelings that you purport to care to much about that you want to move this Mosque. You are utterly poisoned by your hatred. I pity all of you.

jarobertsjr
6 minutes ago
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report abuse What is wrong with all of you? I came on here a couple of days ago and saw you besmirching the memory of my sister and everyone else who died on 9/11 with your un-American ignorance and your xenophobic hatred of Muslims. I asked you to stop and you went right on doing it. What in the world do you think these good people trying to do something for their community have to do with mass murder? What do you think you can possibly accomplish by fighting against their mosque? I'm not afraid to call you racist bigots. That's what the hell you are. And you are un-American too.

Give me a break jarobertsjr. Not that we believe your story any more than anyone elses, but "your sister" is turning in her grave that this is the cause you've chosen to pick up arms for. And while you are screaming "racist bigots" and saying that other's opinion's don't count, perhaps you ought to look at other provisions of the 1st Amendment.

Lastly, " these good people trying to do something for their community "
'Their community' refers to who? Since Park Place two blocks from the World Trade Center site has never been a community for anyone, short of the State dorm one block west that was just torn down finally after 8 1/2 years since it was destroyed on 9-11.

Yeah, a dorm 1 block away was destroyed. Is that close enough for happyrenter?

"with your un-American ignorance "

What a joke.

opposition to rights for latinos out of xenophobia and racism.

this is priceless - so now attempting to enforce a sound immigration policy infringes on the 'rights of latinos'. So everyone in the world apparently has the same rights under US law as a citizen?

"And some people are so blinded by hatred they can't even step back and consider the feelings of people who's family died in that attack"

Interestingly enough, the biggest support for moving the mosque seems to come from exactly these folks. If this isn't the case, then someone should take a vote.

I'm sure its not 100% agreement, but if the majority of victim's familes want to move it, then saying folks against the mosque aren't considering the feelings doesn't seem to be shown by the facts.

"Some use their grief to try to hound good people off their own property. Some with no grief whatsoever try to hound good people off their own property. And some people are so blinded by hatred they can't even step back and consider the feelings of people who's family died in that attack. Feelings that you purport to care to much about that you want to move this Mosque. You are utterly poisoned by your hatred. I pity all of you."

We pity your sister. But not you.

Their own property? What, for how many months? And bought for what purpose?

You think that the rest of NYers don't have grief? You are full of shit. Like we believe your story anyway about "your sister". So easy to come here anonymously and try to create your own convenient story.

I call bullshit on you. And you don't know my story or my family's story.

jarobertsjr.... You are despicable using your grief to silence people. You remind me of the father of Nicholas Berg who was beheaded by the islamists in Iraq. He hated his own country and excused the actual murderers. Don't follow the conversation if it upsets you. Many people who lost loved ones feel exactly opposite of you. You make me sick.

Julia you are sick! and deplucha too. talking to this man like that? are you human?

http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/article.php?id=977

I'm sorry goreadkant, but who is "this man" really?

"but if the majority of victim's familes want to move it, then saying folks against the mosque aren't considering the feelings doesn't seem to be shown by the facts."

Show me this poll that says the majority are opposed. "Facts"? Please.

"September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows is an organization founded by family members of those killed on September 11, 2001. Currently comprised of over 200 families, the group advocates nonviolence and adherence to the rule of law in the pursuit of justice and accountability."

200 families of how many?

On a lighter note, this is an amusing story about the whole thing. its short.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/28/nyregion/28bigcity.html?hp

goreadkant........ http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/kant--immanuel.html

ever actually read kant, or just a propagandistic website with short, simplistic quotations from second, third, and fourth-tier thinkers attacking him?

My favorite quote is..." Kant is the most evil man in mankind's history" A.R.