PreWar 5 vs. Classic 6 - Better Option?

First, most C6s have 2.5 baths (2 main baths, 1 ensuite, 1 not) + maid's. The smaller and/or early C6s do not have the 2nd full bath.

C6 because if you paid exactly the same for a 6 as a 5, you're typically getting more square footage. More space and room count usually trumps everything else given identical views, light, building.

As for the maid's bath, perfect spot for washing machine & vented dryer and/or A/C compressor.

Bathroom count often reflects the period. A C6 built before 1920 will likely have a hall bath and a small maid's bath, as Lobster decribed, possibly with a shaving closet in the master bedroom. Later C6s usually added the full master bath 10023 mentioned.

I think early C6s trade at rough parity to later C5s. They are roughly the same size and offer similar flexibility. Post-WWI C6s generally trade higher, most fundamentally because they are bigger, and also because the servants' quarters are useful as a home office, laundry/utility area or teenager's room, or as raw space for kitchen expansion. If you don't need any of these, a c5 can be a practical, economical choice. On the other hand, you'll also get less on resale. Note of course, that there are excepionally large fives and exceptionally small sixes that don't conform to these generalizations.

Square footage matters. Someone IRL asked me why a particular apt was priced the way it was, given the room count. In that case, it was a smaller footprint, so it was a few hundred k less than a larger apt with the same layout & room count.

I thought that you were on the lookout for a postwar conv. 3 or a prewar 5, anyway. If you find a C6 at your price point with the 2nd full bath, and you are okay with the proportions, I would go for that. Another thing if you are comparing prewar layouts is whether you prefer a "square" layout (my preference, LR-DR across from each other or side-by-side) or the long skinny layout (okay if LR-DR are side by side). I am not a fan of the long-skinny layout where the LR and master BR get the best views, and the DR is next to K in the back. C5s (in general) tend to be laid out better (square).

I generally agree with West81st and nyc10023 here, but I think the switch to 2.5 baths happened a bit earlier, like 1915 or so ... and I'd say the overwhelming majority of Classic 6s were built after that. And it tends to be the ones from before then that have the insanely long skinny hallways.

By some time in the 1920s, they were doing more day-maid kind of arrangements, with just a little changing room and toilet/sink arrangement, no tub. The half-bath described here is toilet & mini-tub, with a little tiny sink in the room rather than the bathroom.

What's a shaving closet? I've never heard of such a thing, and can't imagine it.

Alan: I've seen the shaving closet in only a few apts ever. I have better luck seeing 'em in Bk townhouses. In apts, they're usually in a corner of the room, and literally, shaving closet. You open the door and see a porcelain sink, marble counter, brass faucets, on top of and adjacent to (and I'm a prewar detail lover) FUGLY oak cabinet.
The most preserved shaving closet I've seen in a TH was in Fort Greene, on the park. 2nd floor, master bedroom, the shaving closet was between the front & back room (I assume the back room was the sitting room for the master bedroom). "Shaving" closet had sink (or maybe sinks, I forget) + built-in FUGLY oak cabs. Original.

255 West 90th, 9 room estate (A line?) had the shaving "sink".

I've seen a few classic-6-1.5-bath apts on the UWS (maybe even at 545WEA). Usually on small lot, side street buildings, where they're really trying to squeeze in the room counts. In other cases, inexplicable (221W82) Some renovations take the 1 full bath and make it 2 bathrooms.

The Dakota had a lot of them, e.g. http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/18/5611218.gif

Here's one at 645 WEA: http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/66/8246466.gif

Both, of course, pre-WWI. My point was that the smaller 6es with 1.5baths also existed post-WW-I.

Huh. Interesting. I guess the double-sink bathroom is the modern-day solution to the same "problem". UK estates have some weird arrangement ... I think toilet and sink in one room (WC), and tub and sink in the other.

I've always wanted to install an airplane bathroom in a NY apt. as a powder room ... they're so efficiently laid out.

545 WEA is on a very large lot, but is a fairly late building, so I wouldn't be surprised to see day-maid arrangements. They have lowish ceilings, which probably drives my suspicion.

I forgot to mention that the earliest elevator buildings had maid's quarters at the top, garret-style.

10023: Here's a typical example of a shaving closet (a.k.a. "Gentleman's sink") from the master bedroom of 360 RSD #5C: http://media.bhsusa.com/pictures///1110971-6_d.jpg

They were quite the thing around 1915. Ajello put them in a lot of his larger apartments.

I bet they were really for upchucking after a big night on the town, and everybody knew it but they were too polite and sophisticated to call them anything but shaving closets. But I'm not.

Also 119 west 71st, which is post-WW-I.

Some of the best 5-room layouts are in the Art Deco/Moderne buildings. 140RSD, 200W86, 400(?) WEA. 263 WEA (but hella windy). I'm sure the London Terrace buildings have a couple of nice ones as well. I'm partial to the artist-studio buildings scattered around town. Usually 2 ample bedrooms, 2 baths, very large living room, no dining room though.

West81: hard to see in full fugly glory painted over.

I've also seen the shaving closet sinks with no running water. Your manservant would fill it up for you, and have the warm towel & other stuff ready. Probably shave you as well.

Do any of these buildings have full-height linen closets IN the bathrooms? There's a lot of that in Chicago, and it does wonders for all the crap that doesn't fit in a medicine cabinet.

You're grossing me out. Who stores linens in their bathrooms?

Not linens -- salves and shaving soap and tooth powder and the like. Things are never used for what their names indicate ... it's all a game of discretion. Like bedside upchuck sinks, you never hear anyone say that.

I'm a fan of not stocking up. Nothing irritates me more than owning more than 1 bottle of shampoo or 1 bottle of toothpaste.

BTW, lobster, check out the very generous 5-room layouts at 5RSD & 50RSD. Those really cross the price point with less gracious 6es. Especially 5RSD, as the 5-room is also the best line.

Do 5's have entry foyers? Most 6's do right? I love ours - it's like a bonus mini-room.
lobster - i agree w/ 10023, if they're the same price, why not get the C6?

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/388644-coop-50-riverside-drive-upper-west-side-new-york - lots of foyer

Also 277WEA - E line http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/88/8245588.gif

I'm thinking condos in the burbs have them because most people drive and stock up stuff. I've seen Toronto condos have those kinds of full height closets in the master ensuite bath.

Lobster: I don't think you lose by going with the C5. Especially if the 6 room is at the same price point, that implies that the 5 room has views or more generous proportions or something over the 6 room.

Many classic 6's have a full 3rd bath in the maid's room, which is why the maid's room is often used as a full 3rd bedroom (for the second child).

NYC10023 - what is interesting is that some of the 1960"s post-war coops were designed to create the very gracious pre-war classic 6 layouts with the LR across from the DR, and the maid's in back of the kitchen. The advantage versus the prewar was that the systems, particularly HVAC were updated (no more a/c's in the window). In some cases they even put in the higher ceilings. And, no skimping on the bathrooms. (See the other thread of the Adlon - with one bathroom for 2 bedrooms, as well as some other UPS pre-wars where the master shares a bathroom with the second, and sometimes 3rd bedroom)

West 81st, I've been waiting for a response to my question on your UWS thread re 285 RSD and 300 RSD.

As for Cl 5 vs 6, shaving sinks, etc.. Shaving sinks can be found in almost any building by Ajello (360 RSD, for example), Neville and Bagge (255 West 90th), or Blum Bros (215 West 98th) -- at least those buildings by these firms that were buil btwn 1907 (when the train came in) and 1912. Many Cl 5s are from this era as well and they had only 1 bath (sometimes 1.5). Cl 6s from this era did have the additional maid's bath (as did the Edwardians but they were much smaller). After 1921, Cl 5 and Cl 6 all had at least two baths and roughly equal SF -- so go with whichever you'd like :-). Those buildings built btwn 1912-1921 were not part of any "boom" -- they were either straggler speculatives from from the 1907 Boom (like Ajello's 645 WEA) or early starters from the 1920s Boom -- thus they were a mixed bag.

Oh...one more thing... There are very few Cl Fives (or Sixes) in Art Deco buildings. The notion of a formal DR was history by that point...a dining area (a la 263 WEA) is NOT a DR and five rooms is different from a Cl 5.

West 81st, just saw your response on the UWS OH thread...your input, as always, is helpful :-)

263WEA has 5 rooms on the higher floors, that's what I was referring to.

Lobster was talking about "prewar" and not necessarily classic 5s. I was sloppy in mixing the two.

There are quite a few 5 room apts in Art Deco buildings. Aforementioned 200W86, a ton on WEA.

Haven't done intensive study, but somehow the "Deco" buildings did not offer particularly gracious room sizes (check out 25 CPW). People always seem to associate UWS pre-war with the grand 1927-1930 buildings, built at the height of the boom - fabulous, large, gracious spaces. The "Edwardian", "Deco" apartments in reality (looking at the layouts), are not that much better than lots of post-war apartments. But, that "pre-war" mentality definitely has influence in NYC.

As in "The Adlon" on another thread - small rooms, with, however, great ceiling details - so just lie on the floor all day.

"I've also seen the shaving closet sinks with no running water. Your manservant would fill it up for you, and have the warm towel & other stuff ready. Probably shave you as well."

Sometimes you need another person to help you get to the hard-to-reach spots ...

"disgusting" and "horrible", says your Log Cabin Republican friend Paladino.

But what says my Streeteasy friend Alanhart?

Lookit, don't make me out to be all intolerant and stuff. I tolerate The Gays.

Very interesting comments. My terminology is incorrect. I seem to be looking at 6 room apartments in prewar buildings, but not apartments which can be described as true classic 6 apartments since these apartments have only 2 bathrooms.

In the "D" line of the Admaston (251 West 89th), I saw an apartment which had a shaving closet in one of the smaller bedrooms which was converted to a traditional closet. The broker mentioned that the plumbing was still intact.