not to buy - just think it's a groovy pad

Here's better pics at corcoran -

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=2026431

I've always liked this unit & they now have the price at a reasonable level; it's been on the market FOREVER. It reminds me of the International style with a little Art Deco, Paris between the wars; I don't think it would take too much tweeking for me to be happy there.

Perfect pad to satisfy the most discerning Italian diplomat. Or maybe that's who just vacated.

RE: they now have the price at a reasonable level

80% mortgage at 5.5% = $4,538
maintenance = $3,898
tax savings = -$1650 @ 28%
net monthly = $6,800

yeah, what a bargain

West34: Serious question - so what IS the right net monthly for a 1,500 sf (+/-) duplex winged 2 bed/2 bath with this volume and space and two wood burning fireplaces?

Italian diplomat per diem 20k/mth = bare cheeks on cool dark marble.

anyone notice the windowed tub?
bubble bath as you watch the winter fire burn.
or
maybe you invite over a professional and play 'Whose that girl in the Amsterdam window'
Home depot has the best deal on red light bulbs.

cheeks on cool dark marble
what price could you put on that

so what IS the right net monthly for a 1,500 sf (+/-) duplex winged 2 bed/2 bath with this volume and space and two wood burning fireplaces?

$6,800 - ($500 per loooooong block to subway) X 3 = $5300

;-)

'Who's that girl in the Amsterdam window?'

HAR!

But really - so what do you all think is the 'right' net monthly number?

Thanks West34!

And it's not a duplex, it's an apartment with a mosh pit.

Stage dives onto your white leather sections == priceless!

sectionals

Mosh pit sectionals!

Diplomat or no, you're not getting into that apartment with an 80% mortgage.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Hi Ali: Why not? Are all buildings in that area like River House with huge percentages down and multiples of net worth? Or is this building just one of those with a 50% down requirement?

I've got my parachute pants and high top ponies

Cavariccis?

OMG!! i LOVE that living room!

I still want to know why an 80% mortgage is a no-no in this building....

sorry to be absent mj.

The answer is, while I'd counsel a client to do more for board approval, the building states a minimum of 25% down

ali r.

Got it, Ali: thank you!

But as I do see you are a broker who is a known quantity on these boards and whose observations are respected - can you explain to me why these (and seemingly many/most Beekman and Sutton Place) maintenance charges seem so high, when calculated on a sf basis?

When did this last change hands & at what price? I thought it was sold & redone for resale (apparently no one has lived here for a good while) but judging by the carpets, it HAS been lived in. Also, that windowed tub wouldn't be a good choice if you were doing this for a flip.

I dunno. Those carpets look like they've been there since the days of Krystal and Alexis Carrington....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXWqbzr9f6Q

OR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_ib5-Zt6ZY&feature=related

Well, MJ -- can I shorten you to MJ? -- thanks for the "respected" compliment. I like that.

My disclaimer is that I would have to read any particular building's financials to see why its maintenance is what it is. (My poor buyers typically sit through a coffee which is "Ali's math lesson," where they get their target building's financials read to them).

But we can make some generalizations, so let's start with the easiest: building size.

In the Sutton/Beekman area you have lots of little, boutique-sized buildings, so you have fewer owners available to support the expense of a full staff. If we say that a 120- or 150-unit building is an "average" size, and that 35%-40% of the expenses of that kind of building are going to staff and associated costs, you can see what happens when that model goes to an 80-unit (or in the case of 444 East 52nd Street, 52-unit) building.

The building is smaller, so its value, and thus its property taxes, are probably lower. It costs less to heat and light, so its utilities are lower. However, it's working with the same labor union as the larger building, so its personnel costs are the same, just spread among fewer owners. The overall effect is that the higher labor costs PER UNIT make the maintenance per unit soar.

If you looked at the budget of the smaller building as a pie chart, you'd see labor costs as a higher percentage of the budget than with a big building.

How do you see that without looking at the building's specific financials? Well, the two big portions of a building's budget that are tax-deductible are interest on the underlying mortgage and property taxes, and the three big portions of a building's budget that are not tax-deductible are labor costs, utilities, and maintenance.

So if a listing has a fairly low % T.D. (in the case of 444 East 52nd, 40%) we're going to make an educated guess that it's because of that white-glove service that Beekman/Sutton is so famous for.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

I always assumed the facades on those tudors were substancially more expensive upkeep then the run of the mill post war white brick coops as well.

"I've got my parachute pants and high top ponies"

That must be a sight.

BTW isn't "Groovy Pad" very Partridge Family?

yep, apt is more 80s than 70s.....like totally gnarly.

sigh. steve, it's the brady bunch. marcia thinks greg is groovy. not going any further with this.

I almost wrote "Brady Bunch," but the Partridge Family stuck in my mind. Something about Danny Bonaduce, I think.

That would be "tranny cat house"

Gotta love the UN podium inspired green marble.

Can't be full-on '80s without a floor to ceiling mirrored wall.

It is calling out for a Tony Montana re-enactment. When is the open house?

Ali: Thank you - that is a very cogent explanation. Much appreciated!!!

YW, MJ.

Another factor is that condo square footage is fake, I mean overstated, so if you are comparing a condo and a co-op of similar actual size, the condo monthlies will probably look lower.

Let's take as an example a 20 by 20' box -- maybe it's an alcove studio with a couple of closets, a small kitchen, and bath, and let's say that monthlies for it are $600.

If it's a co-op, stated square footage will probably be within the interior walls, so it's maybe 375, and monthlies are $1.60 a square foot.

If it's a condo, the stated square footage will include some exterior wall thickness, plus some hallway footage. So it might come out to stated square footage of 475, and the monthlies will be $1.26 per square foot.

In this example, the co-op monthlies are a shocking 27% higher than the condo monthlies, for the exact same apartment. It's a measurement distortion, but it's a big one.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

THAT'S pretty fascinating as well. And obviously one reason why the rule of thumb that condo monthlies are supposedly lower on a sf basis (in general) than co-ops - in addition to the fact that condos supposedly have no outstanding mortgages in general while co-ops tend to, but there's your issue of the deductibility factor, I assume.....

These are the kinds of factors that make it tough to buy an apartment like it's a sack of potatoes (a/k/a why, even after computerization, I still have a career).

We haven't even talked about the importance of layout yet -- it's been discussed on other threads, but basically a well-laid out apartment with a small footprint is often preferable to an apartment with a larger footprint where things are not where you need them.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

ali r.
very insightful...

Ugh!

It's a 1980s design nightmare!

sadly without any visible formica.

falco,
TY.

ali

like all fine amenities, formica can be added at relatively tiny cost for one spending a milliom buckeroos

When did this last change hands & at what price? I thought it was sold & redone for resale (apparently no one has lived here for a good while) but judging by the carpets, it HAS been lived in. Also, that windowed tub wouldn't be a good choice if you were doing this for a flip.

drdrd: According to the records, it has not changed hands in a quite a while. And that windowed tub....wow. Maybe it should be turned into a two way mirror? :-)

as a naturally gifted person (i'm french) I would say this place is AWESOME.

nicercatch - LOVE that! ;-))

Thank you, mj! This place has really caught my fancy. I can see lots of mid-century modern & some Chinese pieces. I think the building is glorious; there is a peak at the river from those front windows & one can gaze at the beautiful River House across the way. Also, if I'm not mistaken, there is a garden area that meanders behind those buildings.

There should be a thread

James Bond apartments with psycho monthly charges.

Are the monthlies high? It IS a combo unit, it's a very chic area (you can SMELL the money as you walk in from 1st) & I think there is an elevator operator, too.

drdrd - the monthlies run about $2.55 psf. It does seem a bit on the high side. But frontporch in her third post above gives a most excellent account of the monthlies in this specific case - it's a good read...

Yes, thanx, I read it. Ali is tremendous. These buildings are white glove & gorgeous & this block in particular feels rarefied, so you can either afford it & want that or you look elsewhere. Me likee.

drdrd: Just curious - don't know the area at ALL! Also, it's neither Beekman, nor Sutton. What makes it feel 'rarified' for you? I'd like to know!

Walk down the street; you'll feel it. I think that the north side of the street is Sutton, the south side is Beekman, if you really want to split hairs. River House at 435, at the end of the street across from 444, has very wealthy occupants & ranks with the most exclusive white glove buildings in the city.

444 East 52nd Street was Dorothy Parker's last NYC address before she moved to Hollywood. She moved to 444 from midtown West & had grown up on the Upper West Side. Her comment on her new address: 'It's so far east, you can grow tea."