Marriage

Congrats!

I only know that it'll cost you a lot more to remove her.

My husband owned a one bedroom co-op when we got married and also was not happy that we needed to pay a fee to add my name as a co-owner. But I felt much better being added as a co-owner and, as we were recently married, my husband wanted to make me happy. Wait until you are married a while to argue about small issues like this.

"I recently married and wish to add my wife to the co-op certificate. The management company said it would cost $400 to change it. Is this normal?"

Is it normal to charge a fee, or is $400 a normal rate? Adding a name to the certificate requires an attorney. Last time I checked, attorneys don't work for free.

*****

"Is it necessary to add my wife to the certificate?"

If that's what your wife wants, then YES it's "necessary".

Ditto for just about everything else your wife wants. The sooner you learn this golden rule, the easier life will be for you.

I suggest you ask your attorney, the one who handles or will handle your estate planning, if adding your new wife's name is necessary and worth the expense at this time.

Because you just got married and if either of you have any other assets at all, you ought to have a little chat with a knowledgeable lawyer anyway. Not much money for the consultation, could save much grief down the road.

Karla Harby
Rutenberg Realty
kharby@crrnyc.com

dont do it--

and if your wife cant be happy without you ceding to her half-ownership in an asset you owned prior to marrying her, i'd be careful

and re the "wants" matt describes, she may "want" a divorce some day--and if she does community property will not include this apartment, unless of course you cede ownership to her now

The idea of telling your wife or husband that you do not want him/her to become a co-owner of your co-op does not seem to me to be a great way to begin a typical young marriage where each party has no children and each party has regular assets/liabilities such as student loan debt. I am assuming that this is the case here rather than this being a second marriage or a marriage between older people who have substantial financial assets. If a spouse did not trust his/her spouse enough to make him/her co-owner of a co-op apartment, why even both to get married? The OP sounds to me like he wants his wife to be a co-owner, but is questioning the amount of the fee. Seeking the advice of an attorney seems more appropriate if there are children involved or in the case of an older couple.

Lobster, I agree entirely with the first part of your comment. but it's not a bad idea to start out with a T&E attorney from the get go. you need a will, and you may have some sense of who will be the greater earner over the years. if you are planning on children, it's a good idea to get an attorney's input on how to maximize estate tax planning (sorry alanhart).

wbottom, if you can't be happy sharing with your new spouse, i'd be worried. depending on the circumstances of course. for some a pre-nup is crucial.

...but marriage is forever, till death and all that...

steverou, you can just tell her that you're about to put her name on the certificate, but each time she asks you about, say you forgot and you're doing it next week. Eventually she'll forget all about it.

aboutready owns her husband's degree and half of his income for life. And she doesn't even need to show up from vacation when his father dies. I can just imagine Mr. Ready at his law practice wearing a short skirt.

wbottom.. I finally agree with you.

who cares what you think?

answer: no one.

NYCMatt is a wise man and a realist. Do whatever your wife says and don't argue or you will become a statistic.

dont do it--

and if your wife cant be happy without you ceding to her half-ownership in an asset you owned prior to marrying her, i'd be careful
========================

100% agree. tell her that you will put both of your names on assets for which you both contribute 50%-50%, as in a real partnership. there's no shortage of gold diggers in this city, why would you like to attract them?

notadmin, along your line of thinking, he needs to rebate to her any saving from the extra 250K cp gns exclusion (above his 250K) for married couples when they sell "his" apt. of course, this highly theoretical, since they will probably have cap losses which aren't deductible.

What is the economic formula for leaving vacation early when your spouse's father dies? How much should that cost?

"you can just tell her that you're about to put her name on the certificate, but each time she asks you about, say you forgot and you're doing it next week. Eventually she'll forget all about it." or she might get annoyed and eventually divorce him over it. if he earns more than she does, then...

> notadmin, along your line of thinking, he needs to rebate to her any saving from the extra 250K cp gns exclusion (above his 250K) for married couples when they sell "his" apt

sounds fair to me. in terms of what to do with losses that might come from selling, would they have to split them by 2? that's even trickier, guess renting the money pit (if it proves to be such a non-asset) might help avoiding that loss problem.

wonder how an underwater property gets divided during a divorce. do both parties try to run away faster from the sinking ship if prices keep on going down? if the couple is money strapped chances are they don't even consider a divorce if the situation is not that bad.

This is tricky. Typically, in NY, assets that are acquired before the marriage do not get considered marital property for the sake of property division in divorce. I wonder what the case law is w.r.t getting a spouse's name on the certificate. Interesting point about underwater property.

I can just imagine the look on steve's face after reading all the replies, especially if he's new to this site...

If steve dies unexpectedly, will his wife have enough time to bury him before they kick her out of the apartment?

http://www.manhattanministorage.com/

does it come with electric outlets?

Come on! $400 is the least of your new expenses. You'll have to reno the kitchen and baths for sure.

window treatment alert--arm the checkboook!!!

Go see a domestic relations attorney & get a post nup saying that when you die, she gets apt, but if there's divorce, she gets no interest in apt, if that is what you want to do. It's a good idea to see an atty & figure out property issues, but, ideally, would be better if you had done this prior to marriage.

I heard about this entrepreneur who would only take dates back to his special purpose small EV rental rather than the penthouse apt in GV that he owned. Not sure if he was maximizing sexy-time, but can work as a gold-digger filter if you have the extra change.

unless you will the apt to someone else, she gets it when you die--if you cede ownership to her now, she is incented (further, if you are the breadwinner) to dump you--i guess she'll be happier too

The OP stated he wanted to put his new wife, and only asked if the $400 fee was normal. it's interesting what all the commenters are indirectly saying about their own marriages, and entertaining.

Yes printer, but there are issue related to simply adding her name. Just looking at the bigger picture.

Printer: he also asked if it was "necessary" - for what exactly? To give his wife an interest in the property? Maybe.

it's quite clear - he asked if it was 'necessary to add my wife to the certificate' not if it was necessary to move to joint ownership. it is also possible that he will add her to the mortgage.
at any rate, whichever way you read it, it is a type of rorschach.

With few exceptions such as aboutready and printer, I am surprised at the direction this discussion took.

Marriage is not a business deal. You are supposed to love the other person and support them emotionally. If you do not trust the other person in all aspects of life, do not marry them. The OP asked a simple question aobut a fee, not for legal advice or how to live his life.

Having been in the identical situation myself in my 20's, it was a non-issue and always was for both my husband and me. He owned a small one bedroom co-op with a big mortgage, which mortgage I helped pay after we got married. When we sold the apartment at a loss, it was our problem. His problems are my problems and the reverse is true.

I have read plenty of feminist books and I understand that women need to protect themselves financially, but this is a young couple who have plenty of time to figure out their finances and estate planning as time goes along.

please explain the understanding you gleaned from the plenty of feminist books you have read, on a woman's need to protect herself financially.

how would a young woman do this, based on what you understood?

lobster: "Wait until you are married a while to argue about small issues like this."

What is the small issue that you are referring to that you assume they were 'arguing' about?

http://realestateqa.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/adding-partners-to-co-op-shares/

can't speak for lobster, what *i* remember of feminist literature as it pertains to real estate, is that sky scrapers are sexist because they are symbolic penises.

can't speak for lobster, what *i* remember of feminist literature as it pertains to real estate, is that sky scrapers are sexist because they are symbolic penises.

Lobster: I like you, and I think you are a very good egg.
But the OP's question was vague. Does he want to give a half-interest to his wife, and is doing this by adding her to the certificate? Does he know that if he doesn't do it, that she does not become an owner (so from that point, if he wanted her to have an interest, he DOES need to add her). And how does this impact the mortgage? All these issues, IMO, have nothing to do with trust, but the fact that a legal can of worms are opened. Just to give you an example, if either OP or wife are non-U.S. citizens, there are tax consequences. And btw, once he does this, he might have to change his will.

How is getting a clearer picture and thinking about legal consequences necessarily mean that there's a lack of trust?

It all makes one wonder just who is arranging these marriages these days. It's a lost art.

I have a few friends in "modern" Indian-arranged marriages. They are very happy.

http://realestateqa.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/upsizing-in-a-co-op-can-cost-you/
"He noted that under many leases a shareholder selling to a spouse is exempt from paying the tax" (flip tax).

Of course they're very happy ... nobody likes to make personal decisions, especially ones that will impact their lives for 4-5 years, sometimes more.

...and you get to blame someone else when things don't work out. I'm surprised most Americans haven't went with the route of arranged marriages. The divorce rate can't possibility be worse and they get to continue to blame the parents for all their troubles. They probably blame the parents now, but at least that way the parents can't deny it.

well put, nyc10023. Vague question, clarifying implications. Assume OP wants to make informed decisions.

BTW, the title of this thread takes me back to "Mawwiage" from 4 Weddings and a Funeral.

That was the Princess Bride.

nyc10023, I apologize for not responding to your comment until today, but I was out of town for a few days visiting family.

I do not necessarily disagree with the idea of a young couple speaking to an attorney about property and finance issues, but I do not think that it is necessary in many cases. If a young couple gets married, it might be better to let them have some time to work out their finances, estate planning and the course of their life in general. As dwell mentioned, they can always sign a post-nuptial agreement if they choose. The impression that I had when reading the original comment was that the OP wanted he and his wife to jointly own his co-op, whch makes sense to me for a young couple beginning their lives together and perhaps planning a family in the future. However, your view of the OP's original comment might be more accurate than mine.

Wow! I didn't think such a simple question would generates such a furor. FYI, my wife and I are doing just fine. She did not demand that I add her to the certificate. She is a lovely woman, and far superior to me. Now that that is out of the way perhaps I can rephrase my question.

Is $400 a normal fee for this procedure. Is it normal for the management company to charge this much? I have paid off the mortgage, so the property is paid for. Secondly, I would LOVE to add my wife to the certificate. My question regarding this procedure has nothing to do with my reluctance, but more to do with it's necessity. If she is listed in my will then is it necessary to add her name?

God help me.

Don't be put off by the posters on this board -- they're always like that.

The $400 doesn't sound out of line. Managing agents generally bid each other down on the yearly fee from the building, so have to make their money on these paperwork kinds of things.

Better check with an attorney because the will might not be sufficient but you also want to make sure that adding the name to the certificate will do what you want. Many attorneys provide free consultations with the hope of getting later work so you can ask a few.

Mawwiage.

Steverou: better to add your wife to the certificate. That way, she is indisputably the shareholder in a way that she is not, legally, as the beneficiary in your will. $400, in the scheme of things, is not onerous, IMO. You don't want the co-op board possibly denying her the ability to stay on, just because she's not on the certificate.

Or just go with what nyc10023 said; sounds reasonable to me.

Steverou, I would definitely talk to a lawyer. We generally don't like to contemplate our own demise but it only takes a moment to die. If you & your wife go to see an estate lawyer, you can be reassured that all will be as you want it when the inevitable occurs.

Best of luck.

Actually, the bigger problem is when it takes longer than 'a moment to die.'

the >50% of those who have just gotten married and will ultimately divorce, dont like to contemplate the liklihood of the demise of their marriages either

interesting that so many of us plan carefully for death, but not for divorce--we are much quicker to divorce than to die

the tradition that we casually put it all on the line as we marry is rether strange, given frequency of divorce, and laws that define the process

Wbottom: "...we are much quicker to divorce than to die"

Yes, but one is inevitable.