Need UWS advice

This 4 BR doesn't seem to be flying off the shelf at $8500 (possibly no fee, too):
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/720075-rental-156-west-86th-st-upper-west-side-new-york

No doorman, though, and not clear what you mean by a "good" building.

To clarify, while our current pre-war apt is 2BR and has no DR we have a good staff and are on a high floor with good light in a good location. We pay $4300 now but are outgrowing our apt. I'd like to upgrade the size while not sacrificing too much on location, light and service if possible at that price point.

UWS_HELP - A few suggestions:

For rentals, I don't think you need a broker - at least not yet. You could start by contacting the leasing offices of firms that have the kind of property you're seeking - e.g. Haberman & Haberman, Empire and maybe Rudin. You have time, so just tell them what you're looking for and ask them to call you when something appropriate opens up. Then follow up weekly to stay on their radar.

For sales, I think $1.8MM will get you a nice six, unless you're set on the San Remo or Beresford. $2.1MM will buy a better six or a modest seven at this point. Whether the market will be higher or lower in 2012, and whether inventory will be stronger, is anyone's guess.

take it from a me, a professional SE blogger.

PRICES WILL BE LOWER IN 2011/2012/2013=>2020

THERE WILL BE GREATER INVENTORY. IT'll make the $2MM C6 sold in 20005-2010 look like a FEMA trailer park special. TRUST ME. I HAVE AN OPINION on these matters.

We have no specific building in mind, but would like to have a usable 3rd BR. Either the maids room is big enough, or possibly able to split a 2nd BR. Also would like to have a decent size for LR/DR

There are some nice classic 6s to be had on West End Ave. I've also been intrigued by the A line at 300 RSD (may be a tad north of where you're looking though) which is a 6 with park/river views. There are currently two available, which have been lingering for a while, with one asking below $2M.

What about making the rounds of the prewar buildings (rentals only)?

Ones that come to mind - doorman & no-doorman (with 6es)
156W86, 420 WEA, 251W92, 30W70, 115W86, the Severn (large building on 72d & Amsterdam), large corner (SE) on 79th & Bway, on top of Nico's (Bway) and on top of the Cottage (on Amsterdam). One on 75th & CPW (forget the address), 35W81, 80th and columbus (Orleans?)

Go up and down 86th (there are more than 2 all-rental bldgs) & WEA in the 80s (ditto)

bramstar - 300 RSD looks nice and location is probably good, but not sure about a 3rd BR in that line.

nyc10023-thanks for the list of those apts. Hard to weed through listings for the rentals online. So many seem to be fake listings, especially on NYT

A couple of WEA ideas (670 just reduced price a couple of days ago):

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/571298-coop-670-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/562268-coop-639-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

Those layouts probably could work. Just don't like that stretch of WEA in low 90s. Would go higher or lower though

UWS Help -- For sales, I actually think you need to addreess the bathroom situation...

WWI era buildings actually have farily large maid's rooms such that a Classic Six could work well for you (with the maid's serving as a third bedroom) -- they are this way because families in that time still kept many employees. Such apartments will be a bit smaller in overall SF with fewer closets and will likely only have 1 bath plus the maid's bath. However, they will definitely be under 1.8M.

WW II era apartments will be larger with plenty of closets and bathrooms but tend to have the long narrow maid's rooms that really make kids feel like forgotten children :-) Even so, nice WW II sixes (with light, views, etc) will be pushing 1.8M.

So, if you deal with one fewer bathroom, WWI Sixes could work. If not, I think you'll be hard-pressed to find what you want for 1.8M.

The bigger players in this market apart from the firms that W81 mentioned:

1) Rachel Realty - yeah, yeah, I know but some bldgs only go through brokers
2) Harvey Siegel - Fenway Keats, he seems to have the "exclusives" on a few bldgs, correct me if I'm wrong.

3) http://www.theorleansny.com/ - VERY well-maintained, owner lives there (hmm, wonder what his NOI is :))
- he deals direct, I think

UWS--As someone who currently lives (renting) on WEA in the low 90s I'm curious about what about the area you don't like. There are good shops, restaurants, markets within easy reach on Broadway and you're very convenient to the the express/local train, which has an entrance on 93rd and B'way. Entrance to Riverside Park is close by, with a great kids' playground.

My husband and I are planning to buy soon, and will likely end up in Morningside Heights, which we think is terrific, but... we're already lamenting the future 'loss' of the nabe we've grown to love. :-)

How realistic is it to get rentals for 1 month fee from the larger brokerage firms?

Well. As for purchasing, from observing the market for so long, it appears that the best deals are wrecks, estate sales, etc. Budget 500k for renovations, and you could find yourself a C6 for 1.2, 1.3 maybe today (not easily but they've come up).

My favorite "family" C6 layouts (no particular order):
685WEA, 545WEA, 885(maybe 895?) WEA, 50RSD, 118RSD - there are also some nice ones on CPW

In addition, the side streets in the 60s + 70s have small C6 lines in various buildings (not large, but many prefer the location):

120W70, 119W71, 59W71, 24(?)W69, 28W69, 321W78, 125W76

The orleans seems to be too expensive. Rachel Realty seems to have listing on 420 WEA. Anyone know if that building is any good?

Rachel doesn't have the "exclusive" on 420 bcs Harvey also posts them. I have heard that the building is fine.

Other buildings with C6s on side-streets - 160W77.

Orleans is pricy, but no broker's fee + very well-maintained. Also, miles better location than the other rentals. Also look at 35 (or is 25?) W81.

C6s in 210W78.

Another rental on that stretch of WEA - 441WEA

UWS - also look for rentals in the Chatsworth, 344W72. They're not C6 or C7s but cutups from much bigger apts.

rsm321: The $1.8MM price point isn't that bad. Consider the recent sales at 285 RSD, which we have discussed elsewhere. All have two full baths plus the maid's bath. They needed some work, but I think the all-in cost on each will wind up between 1.6 and 2.

A half-million lower, we'd be talking about really flawed product like the current listings at 200 West 108th and 800 WEA. At 1.8, CPW is mostly out of reach, along with the top buildings elsewhere. With those exceptions, I think most of the neighborhood is in play, not just mini-sixes with one full bath.

Just went through those apts you suggested. Some of them look pretty good. Seems like the market is pretty slow now, when does the market typically start to pick up?

UWS, your timeframe is going to depend on whether you're buying or not, and whether you're doing a renovation or not. If you're looking to rent for August 1, you're six months ahead of the game. What prices will be next summer, when you should be looking, is anybody's guess.

If you're looking to buy, be aware that we're currently in a state of low inventory -- co-op inventory dropped 9% last quarter; although inventory in aggregate is roughly at 10 months, I've got lots of customers who decry that there's "nothing to buy."

That pipeline should begin to fill up again towards the end of January and get better as we roll through February and March. If you put in a bid in March and close in June, you won't have time to do much reno before August 1st, so you might have to extend your lease.

Given what your requirements are, you might want to look at combos too. You'll pay a higher maintenance, but they'll often be already updated, and they might really work for you.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

I have friends in 156 W86 and know that a few apartments just became vacant. I don't believe there are any C7's (though i could be mistaken) but the street facing C6's have large maid's rooms, a large enough dining room to convert into a small 4th bedroom (as my friend did), and a large master that could be split into two smaller rooms as well. you've received good suggestions on this thread. $8k should get you a decent space in a decent building. good luck.

Try William Moses & Co Management - they'll deal direct and I bet you can get exactly what you need from the building they have on the Upper West Side. They have a full-time doorman building at 575 West End Avenue whic is at the corner of 88th.

The number is: (212) 757-7500

Also, Weber Farhat realty is renovating a huge apartment across the street from the biulding I just posted about. I think the apartment will be ready in a month or so.

Here is their site address: http://weberfarhatrealty.com/

And phone number: 212-727-0022

I think the building is 574 West End Avenue. This is not a doorman building.

i think Harvey deals exclusively with 140 W86 which has very basic C6's. That might be worth a look (no doorman though).

We looked at 575 WEA a while back. Seemes like a nice building w/ doorman, but i thought the asking prices were ridiculously high for the amount of space. but, they seemed negotiable when we were looking (spring '09), so also may be worth your time. 574 WEA, directly across the street, also has 3-4 bedroom apartments. bldg was ok.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but as long as we are all trading info in goodwill ;-)

I am looking for a 2 bedroom or larger on the Upper West Side (Which is where I am from.). My budget maxes at $4000. I am trying to avoid brokers' fees if at all possible. I am expecting a baby so I can't do a walk up. I don't need a doorman. I am trying to find a location on the UWS that is safe for my wife to come home from work after maternity is over - with adequate space and location.

I prefer to be 106th street and below. The closer to the express train the better.

If anyone knows about anything please post it!

same time, same thought :)

156W86 wasn't built with C7s -- just C6s and some smaller ground-level places. LL must have re-carved something to claim C7. Probably blammoed the entrance gallery & DR, and cut the space up differently. MBRs there don't really lend themselves to splitting.

H.Siegel is a good call. Add 498 WEA and 350 CPW to the buildings to which his name has been attached above.

@uwsmom - that is funny we posted about the same buildings at the same time.

I thought 575 WEA was high as well, but I got the feeling the were negotiable as well - unfortunately they were simply outside my range. So was the big apartment at 574 WEA which is on the 6th floor I believe.

Any idea what kind of fee would have to pay with Siegel?

Siegel will run you 12-15%, i think. but hey, everything's negotiable. start looking now, take notes, comparison shop. i looked for 6+ months for our last rental. you'll know where you're getting the best deal when it comes time to sign the lease.

West 81st, I agree with you in general about 1.8 for a Six being a healthy budget but UWS HELP mentioned a "usable third bedroom" with a "big enough" maid's room. The WW II Candela buildings (for instance, the one at 285 RSD that you mentioned) tend to have EXTREMELY narrow maid's rooms (about 6 ft) that are too tight for a kid's room (though it can work as a nursery). That said, the overall SF is larger so sometimes the apartment can be reconfigured entirely to allow for three full bedrooms… but that's often a budget-buster.

On the other hand, the Ajello, Neville and Bagge, and WW I Schwartz and Gross buildings (those that were modeled on Ajello) tend to have maid's rooms of at least 10 by 10 (and, sometimes, as large as 10 by 14 like those in 180 RSD). Thus, minimal reconfiguring is required to get that third real bedroom and these apartments are often had -- totally renovated with nice views -- for under 1.8M.

but some LL's will pay the broker fee. don't limit yourself now based on brokers, fees, etc. Just look at everything and gather your info. it's a powerful tool.

rsm321: Understood. One of the things I liked about 285 RSD #3B was that the wall between the DR and the maid's room had been bumped maybe 18-24 inches so the MR could function as a reasonable third BR. Some money will still have to go into that apartment, but at least that one problem has been solved.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/569715-coop-90-riverside-drive-upper-west-side-new-york

3/2.5 baths, just under $1.8. divided the dining area into smallish bedroom and library. kitchen has dining space.

Aboutready, it seems like a pretty good layout, but is the only (non-bedroom) bathroom in the kitchen?

yes, and i'm not so fond of that. but it's only an issue when you have adult guests over, and then just make sure the master bedroom is clean and send them in there.

it has nice space, and i like the dual nature of the kitchen area, both a separate room with plenty of room for the kids or guests to hang while dinner is being prepared, and it has enough room for dining as well.

AR: I've shown 90 RSD #5F a couple of times. Good space in an excellent building, with some minor condition issues. The big sticking point there involves light and views. For an apartment that's completely interior, it's not as bad as it could be: the LR and divided DR face a tree behind an adjacent townhouse. The bedrooms face brick walls, though at enough of a distance for some light to bounce around.

UWS_HELP: The maid's room of #5F was merged into the eat-in kitchen. That powder room in the kitchen is the former maid's bath.

west81st, good photography for the unit. it looks quite bright. too bad, nice building and space.

oohah - Try 175 West 79th or 140 West 79th. Both have pretty nice pre-war 2 beds for under $4K on a great block.

Thanks TripleP! - Do you know who the management companies for those properties are? If you do it would be most appreciated.

If not, I'll walk over there and talk to someone on the staff or accost a resident on their way out!

rsm321- Which buildings are you referring too? (Ajello, Neville and Bagge, and WW I Schwartz and Gross)

Oohah: 175W79 is Rotner - 212-879-7737. Not sure about 140. I don't know whether either building rents direct; it's worth a phone call.

OOHAH - Contact Joey Tolino at Citi-Habitats. I am not a fan of brokers, or of that firm, but I am a HUGE fan of Joey. He will go the extra mile for you and he prides himself on doing the best for his clients. He just (this week) got us an apartment on the UWS that fits what you described in a great building and at $3725. Plus, since he has been looking up here he is very familiar with the inventory currently on the market.

I know how you feel about brokers, but if they find you a good place, at no fee (or one month) and the place is going to be good for you over a period of a couple of years or more, then it really is worth it to use a good one.

And though I believe in Streeteasy and that SE has put more power in the hands of us regular people, it still doesn't compare to the resources available to a Citi-Habitats.

West 81st, you're absolutely right about the 285 RSD B-Line -- I also found that layout to be tremendously flexible. Again, in general though, I find the maid's rooms in some WWI buildings to be large enough that nothing needs to be done as far as structural changes and that's a nice change sometimes :-)

UWS HELP, I was referencing certain architects/builders. These are just some random floorplans I pulled:

Classic 6 Line in a WWI Schwartz and Gross building (215 West 91st) with a 12x10 maid's:
http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/attachment/show/229365.gif

Classic 6 Line in an Ajello building (180 RSD) with a 12x10 maid's:
http://www.corcoran.com/images/media/ListingFloorplans/1989494.1.gif

Classic 7 Line in a Neville and Bagge building (817 WEA) -- I couldn't find a Six (though I think the E line is one) -- with an 11x(almost)9 maid's:
http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/attachment/show/480092.gif

Mind you, this doesn't mean that all of the maid's rooms in these architect's buildings are this big but, for sure, your UNLIKELY to find WW II apartments with any maid's rooms this big...

@West81st: Thanks for the info!

@AvUWS: Thanks for the recommendation!

How embarrassing! In my most recent post I incorrectly attributed 180 RSD to Ajello. It too is a Schwartz and Gross building. In my defense, I have always referred to Schwartz and Gross as copycat architects :-)

In any case, here is a Six at 895 WEA (most definitely an Ajello building) with a maid's that's (nearly)10x16:
http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/16/2418816.jpg

rsm321-I see what you mean. Those maid's rooms are huge!

One of the problems, IMHO, with the WW1 classic apartments is the lack of a bathroom for each bedroom, (so the MBR and 2nd BR, and sometimes 3rd BR share a bath, and the maid has her own!!) and the closets usually aren't very good.

Go for an 8+ room apt, then you solve the problem of no master bath :)

ph41, You are correct...If you look back in the thread, you'll see that my first post indicates these issues as being trade-offs.

WWI apartments tend to have higher ceilings, larger windows, more ornate detailing, larger kitchens, and larger maid's rooms. They also have smaller dimensions, fewer closets, fewer bathrooms, and more "wasted space" (hallways, galleries, etc).

The one exception to the above framework (as far as I have discovered) are WW I Blum Brothers buildings (of which there are very few, such as 610 WEA and 215 West 98th). Also, just as Schwartz and Gross copied Ajello, they also copied the Blum Brothers so they have a few as well (like 404 RSD).

In these buildings, you tend to get the large scale spaces with good closets and sufficient bathrooms BUT ALSO get the detailing and feel of the WWI buildings.

RSM: it's also a question of the market that they were designing for. The larger the room count and the bigger the plot of land the greater flexibility the architects had w.r.t. to bathrooms & room dimensions.

The Strathmore and 610WEA are some of my favorite layouts on the UWS, but we're beyond the realm of 6-room counts.

nyc10023, quite right! In general, I believe that Neville and Bagge designed for the Middle Class, Ajello, designed for the Upper Middle Class, and the Blum Brothers designed for the Upper Class. Again, for Schwartz and Gross, they copied each of these others at various points depending on what their developer wanted. Neville and Bagge and Ajello definitely had smaller apartments (as small as Edwardian 5s) but the Blum Brothers did mostly have larger apartments (though there are two Six Lines in the Gramont on 98th).

What I find interesting, though, is that each of the firms, even when they stepped out of their comfort zone, carried with them what made them unique. So, for instance, even the nicest of the Neville and Bagge buildings (arguably the Cornwall on 90th St) still doesn't sparkle like the most mediocre Blum Brothers building on levels like detail and proportion. And a ho-hum Blum Brothers building (like the Gramont), still blows-away many of the Neville and Bagge and Ajello buildings.

But, rsm, much had to do with the plot of land available to the architect. Carpenter almost always (any exceptions) got the best plots to deal with, so he had space to squander. If you had a small midblock lot that was a 2-rowhouse teardown, there really only so much you can do.

Candela for instance, worked with a variety of footprints.

NYC 10023, Actually, I respectfully disagree with you.

First of all, Carpenter only built two buildings on the UWS (246 WEA and 173-5 RSD). He built quite a bit on the UES (which I know nothing about). But as far as his business on the UWS, I don't think any pattern can be determined: the n isn't large enough.

So putting Carpenter aside, let’s turn to the other previously mentioned architects.

Neville and Bagge built Bennington Corners (now 801 WEA and 817 WEA – only 817 retained the name) as one project and had an entire block to work with and to do whatever they wanted. Instead of one big fabulous building (a la the Cornwall, the best they could muster at the time), they built twin buildings with modest plans.

Ajello essentially had all of Claremont Ave to plot out as he chose. He built wonderful upper middle class buildings there -- but nothing like his contemporaries, the Blum Bros (and it wasn’t a location issue – original layouts at 404 RSD, 417 RSD, and 435 RSD were all Nines and Tens).

Finally, look at the annex that the Blum Bros built on the little plot of land next to the Gramont on 98th St (after the Gramont was a huge success). They had very little to work with as far as plans, yet the apartments were still more opulent (certainly as far as woodwork, plastering, and other detail) than anything else being built at the time by these other firms.

Again, I'm not arguing that there aren't exceptions -- and certainly specific firms sought out projects that were likely to match their style. But the essence of my point is precisely that these firms did indeed have their own style…some with more panache than others!

I think we're nitpicking here. What else did Blum Bros build? W/o me having to google. Too bad that Lamb only built rowhouses on the UWS?

I'm actually in 574 WEA, building is pretty nice -- you can see the wear and tear, but the staff cares (super 3 porters) and are generally responsive. Renovations are so-so (we'll actually probably be doing some minor improvements to the apt while we're there) but the space is fantastic. I'm in a 3BR/2BA with the maid's room converted into a laundry room/large bathroom. Happy thus far, and the area is tough to beat.

It's a shame a building like this hasn't seen more care-and-feeding from the ownership (apparently it really went to pot a few years back, and the owners decided to invest a bit more.) The bones of the building are fantastic.

Fair enough NYC10023. As a broker, one thing I do with buyers who are looking is to explain that it's not as easy as "prewar or postwar" -- which is how most brokers reduce the inventory. I've made a niche for myself in the nuances but I can and do get carried away :-)

As far as the Blum Bros, they did 610 WEA and the Gramont and Annex on 98th, as already mentioned. They also did 251 West 89 (which, by the way, does have Edwardian Fives), 601 West 113th, the Dalieu on 101 and WEA, 241 West 108th (a middle class tenement building -- one of their first commissions), 670 WEA (one of their later buildings wherein they'd lost their zezt), and, I think, the Rockfall on 545 West 111th. They also did 838 WEA -- these are off the top of my head so the list is neither exhaustive nor in any sensible order.

UWS_HELP: Would a layout like this work for you?
http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/69/3236669.gif

In the spirit of this thread, I should mention that it's a Candela Six, which means very little while evoking images of grand Park Avenue apartments.

5C @ 755 WEA? This building does have some good values, but it's somewhat uninspiring. I saw 7C a few months ago and just didn't think it was worth it, although I must admit that 5C was probably one of the best bottom-fishing deals of 2009...

Aptometrist: Good eye. Other buyers apparently agreed with you that #7C overshot. The question is: by how much? Sixes at 755 and 771 WEA took a big hit in 2009. There weren't enough sales in 2010 to establish a level, or even a clear direction. #3B at 771 showed a bounce of about 10-15% from the 2009 trough, where #5B and #9B sold; but it's just one sale. For what it's worth, I like that line a lot: http://www.corcoran.com/images/media/ListingFloorplans/2019783.1.gif

West81, what are the flaws of 800 WEA and 200 W. 108th that you were referring to earlier?

Floridian: Sorry about the confusing typo - I meant 300 W.108th, not 200. 200W108 has its own issues - and some nice combination apartments with Cathedral views - but that's probably a topic for another thread. At 300W108, there's a decent-sized six available, with both BRs facing front. Needs some work, and I think the third floor above Indian Cafe will scare off some buyers, no matter how good the restaurant's venting and sanitation systems are. At 800 WEA, the issues are mostly condition-related. It's a gut job where the buyer will have to work around significant electrical constraints. Also, the back of the apartment is very dark and rather awkward.

West81st-C line seems like maid's room too small. the A line in 755 looks more ideal and seems somewhat near price range

Agreed - "A" is a nice seven. A high-floor "A" in good condition might stretch your budget at this point. #8A needed much more work than the pictures suggest. #11A wasn't an arm's length sale, so that one doesn't count.

Too bad, it seems most of the larger apts in my price point need significant work. I have no experience with renovations and I am reluctant to tackle a gut reno.

#8A wasn't that bad - it just wasn't the mint beauty a buyer might have expected after reading the Elliman and Corcoran listings for it. The main problem you'll encounter shopping for a seven currently is short supply, which means high prices for the few listings that have come along (e.g. 895 WEA)

I have no problem waiting for a good apt. How often do 7s typically come up?

There's no clear pattern. A typical month might only have two or three new listings, and those are often retreads. Sevens are often final apartments for their owners; so they don't turn over very often.

January/February and September/October are prime periods for new supply to hit the market. This season hasn't amounted to much so far, but it's early. Occasionally, you'll see a concentration of supply in a line (e.g. 771 WEA "A" line ca. 2008-2010), which can mark an opportunity for buyers.