Manhattan is attractive for families

“We didn’t have the kind of subprime crisis that the rest of the country had, where mortgage brokers clustered large volumes of subprime loans in contiguous counties,” said Rae Rosen, senior economist at the New York Fed. “As a result, New York City didn’t suffer comparable job losses for residential construction workers or mortgage brokers.”

The housing market also held up better because co-ops comprise three-quarters of owner-occupied residences and their boards have done a better job of vetting the finances of borrowers than banks did, said Miller of Miller Samuel, the consulting firm.

I hear Dalton is having a 2 for one special

raising tots, fine. once they pass elementary school, you can have a mcmansion in the burbs and drive into to work daily for the price of tuition in private schools.

Manhattan is a great place to raise kids except for the winter. Winter sucks in Manhattan.

"and drive into to work daily for the price of tuition in private schools."

It's a wash really. There isn't a huge financial incentive to move to the suburbs. The decision is all about space and schools vs. commute and convenience

I must agree 100% with Juice.

Winter sucks because you do have to pay lots for activities, cant just let the kids run around in the yard or basement.

But is IS a financial wash. If you stay in the city, private will be either 38K for one kid or 76K for two kids. Very pricy, no doubt. But the suburbs contain tons of hidden expenses: two cars, insurance, costs of LIRR/Metro North/Path in addition to the subway, home maintenance expenses, lawn/garden maintenance. Its also an emotional drain. The parent working in the city will probably not see their family much because all of their free time will be spent commuting. This is really the main reason that parents, especially parents who both work, stay in the city. No one wants to spend 3-4 hours a day commuting when they could be spending that time with their kids or relaxing at home.

"There isn't a huge financial incentive to move to the suburbs."

agreed... I remember the NYT article.. i disagreed with some of their points but agree with their main point that suburbs costs more in the end...

"Here’s what we found: a suburban lifestyle costs about 18 percent more than living in the city."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/03/your-money/03compare.html?_r=1

but yeh, people who move out of the city "to save" are usually shocked to find that savings are minimal or non-existent.. any savings on city taxes get eaten up by higher property tax, auto & home insurance, gas, etc..

"Here’s what we found: a suburban lifestyle costs about 18 percent more than living in the city."

If one owned a duplexed (2 classic 6es), high-floor on WEA, I guess UWS would be a great place to have kids :)

"The number of white, non-Hispanic children in Manhattan rose 22.5 percent to 77,556. Asian children rose 2.7 percent to 19,520. Black children fell 30.2 percent to 38,199, and Hispanic children fell 21.3 percent to 88,438."

77,556 19,520 - 38,199 - 88,438 = -29,561

How is 29,561 less children an increase?

Would be more correct if the title of the post was "Manhattan is attractive for [RICH] families"

"If one owned a duplexed (2 classic 6es), high-floor on WEA, I guess UWS would be a great place to have kids"

yeppers, that would do it for me!

Manhattan is attractive for families

who have LOTS of disposable income............

now let's take a family who can survive in Manhattan who earn $300K. they will have to dish out an additional $11K in taxes, live in cramped quarters and spend $76K on schooling.

you can live in NJ within a 1 hr commute, have a much larger house for the same $1M. just the savings from the NYC tax, you'll end up paying all, or at least 1/2, of the property taxes.

the current maintenance bills, that have gone way up in Manhattan in past 5 yrs, will more then cover the cost of maintaining your house even if you don't have a screw driver.

the car insurance, full coverage, for 2 cars will run less then $2K per year, that's nothing if you're saving $76K for schooling.

if you earn well over $500K, then stay in the city, you can afford it.

nyc is an awesome place to be raised and raise--ive done both

and the best public and private schools in NYC blow doors off their counterparts in the burbs--hands down

and there are better drugs in the city--but there are better opportunities for death by auto in the burbs--pick your poison

they've been playing this song for so long now, you have to wonder who're trying to convince whom. sunday, when i read that, i see the numbers you see, and they jump out. this strange liberal new york press dancing around the issue has been, if nothing else amusing to observe. i wonder if you feel the texture of the physical paper, is there, in braille, the phrase "bad minorities leaving, rich people stay. yay!"

Price of everything in Manhattan is more expensive, Food, Dry Cleaners, Movies, Restaurants, you name it, you're pecked to death in every direction you turn.

Check out the annual taxi bill for a family of four.

Also if you don't maintain a car in Manhattan, add in the cost of car rentals, train, bus and plane trips that you would use your car for in the suburbs. It's all the small stuff that adds up to a very expensive lifestyle.

Having said all that, if you can afford a 3 bedroom apartment or larger, and garage a car, and have a weekend place, you can't beat the lifestyle.

I'm waiting for them to question why Bloomberg never prepared for all this child-friendliness by building more schools. Who owns that paper anyway?

So much depends on one's personal consumption behavior.

Are you a person who's likely to jump in a cab for convenience or has the time & energy to plan around public transit?
Do you pick up the phone to order in or do you plan your menu?
NYSC/building gym or Reebok?
Are we comparing Bronxville to UWS?

Aside from the large fixed costs (housing & private school tuition), everything else is kinda discretionary.

The premier tristate suburbs are $$$.

"just the savings from the NYC tax, you'll end up paying all, or at least 1/2, of the property taxes."

myth. Property taxes in NJ are a wash with the city income tax.

"you can live in NJ within a 1 hr commute, have a much larger house for the same $1M."

$1M within 1 hour in a suburb with great schools does not get you much. If you are going to compare private schools in Manhattan with the suburban schools, you need to choose towns with excellent schools. The towns with excellent schools also have high real estate prices and very high property tax.

"once they pass elementary school, you can have a mcmansion in the burbs and drive into to work daily for the price of tuition in private schools."

Just make sure your kids are smart and send them to Stuyvesant.

NJ property taxes get you to AMT (Alternative Min Tax) much quicker, making many of your exemptions, work exp, prop tax itself, state tax withholding non-deductible..

Granted if we're having this discussion you'll be in AMT regardless, but I notice NJ residents tend to get there MUCH quicker due to higher prop taxes compared to the city tax itself..

Remember, though NY does have a slightly higher tax rate than NJ..

...NJ is a GROSS INCOME TAX State, meaning they tax the hell out of you basically based on your gross income taxes (save 401k deductions, property taxes under a threshhold and medical exp subject to 2% of gross)

...NY (despite higher rates) is MUCH friendlier and mimics your Sch A on Federal 1040.. so you'll actually get something back for all that Mortgage Interest, Charities, 529 college savings plan, 403b retirement plan, etc you paid in NY where NJ doesn't recognize this...

this is why its common for high income earners who live in NJ and work in NY see that they tend to always owe NJ taxes, but get a refund back from NY.. NY allows you to itemize many more items.

why was my post deleted

You also have to factor in loss of income if both parents work in the city. Because if you are living in the burbs one parent *will* have to either stay at home or work locally because the other parent will be commuting so much. So its either total loss of second income or lesser second income. Pretty much all the families I know who had two working parents while they lived in the city had to have one parent quit when they moved to the burbs.

"...had to have one parent quit when they moved to the burbs."

You make it sound like it's a bad thing.

I don't think I made it sound bad at all. It could be a great thing if one parent wants to stay at home, or a bad thing if both parents need/want to work. The times are gone when one income could support a family of four in a nice middle class subsurban life, many families need to have either a huge earner or both parents working in order to have that.

I think you are spot on technologic.

"The times are gone when one income could support a family of four in a nice middle class subsurban life, many families need to have either a huge earner or both parents working in order to have that."

" Pretty much all the families I know who had two working parents while they lived in the city had to have one parent quit when they moved to the burbs. "

so did they embrace a life of poverty or what?

"The times are gone when one income could support a family of four in a nice middle class subsurban life"

The definition of "nice suburban life" has changed quite a bit. For your Grandparents it was probably a 900 sq. ft. house, one car, and a trip to the shore every summer. Meals were cooked at home, restaraunts were for special occasions and the neighborhood school was good enough.

> Manhattan%u2019s population grew 3.2 percent

In 10 years, that's incredibly low... especially with all the new kids. So, I'm wondering if the number of familuies/households is flat, or even down.

They may not be making any more land (actually they are) but it doesn't look like they need to add any anyway...

"and the best public and private schools in NYC blow doors off their counterparts in the burbs--hands down"

Of course, go past 3-4 public high schools in NYC, and the majority of the burbs blow everything else away.

Stuyvesant can only take 800 kids a year...

> $1M within 1 hour in a suburb with great schools does not get you much.

Yes, it might only get you two houses.
;-)

Anyone ever notice that $1m in Manhattan doesn't get you much either? You would get a pretty nice house for $1m in most suburbs and it gets you a small 2br condo in Manhattan, maybe a really small 3br coop.

The answer is to live AND work in CT

FWIW---Even families in the suburbs sometimes find that sending their children to private school is better. They end up with the high taxes, long commutes AND big tuition bills.

My friends in the suburbs go private too. I agree that at unless one parent stays home or works locally, it's not worth the trade-off. There are so many school events that you can easily attend by taking an hour off of work if your kids are in the city that you would otherwise be unable to attend. You sacrifice some but gain a lot more by being close to them.

The real question is: "How do you make more money?"

Related question - Where all the manhattanites moves to in Westchester? Is it larchmont?
What's the safest town with easy commute to NYC, in Westchester?.

Where all the manhattanites moves to in Westchester? Is it larchmont?
What's the safest town with easy commute to NYC, in Westchester?.

i double dare you to post this on youbemom

Criteria that people consider (any burb - LI/Westchester/NJ/CT) on top of budget (no particular order):

1) Commute - are you commuting to downtown or midtown? NJ might be better for downtown commutes, midtown direct to Penn or Path. Some people try to free themselves from the train schedules & town parking lot situation by driving to a Path station and taking Path in. There are reverse commuters who are now moving closer to their work in the burbs.
2) Feel of town - is a walkable "downtown" area desirable?
3) "Competitive" school system or not - oft-cited examples of "competitive" include Scarsdale. More "laidback" would be some of the river towns (Croton?) or Larchmont (apparently Mamaroneck HS isn't uber-stellar). Public or private? Westchester (Hackley/RCD and others) and NJ (Lawrenceville/Pingry)? Some opt for a lower-prop tax situation to send their kids private.
4) Tax situation - is NJ/NY/CT best for you?
5) Are you a big "land" person? Do you want acres or is a small yard okay?
6) Town facilities - beach? golf? swimming?
7) Religious/racial/whatever diversity
8) Airports for those who travel for work
9)

" $1M within 1 hour in a suburb with great schools does not get you much.

Yes, it might only get you two houses."

Not in a town with good schools.

HEre is what $535,000 gets you in Tenafly (a top school district in NJ):

http://www.njmls.com/listings/index.cfm?action=dsp.info&mlsnum=1104937&dayssince=&countysearch=false

Notice there are no interior pictures, which means the house is a DUMP.

Don't like that house? No problem. I've got another one for you.. this one for $538,000, which is also a DUMP:

http://www.njmls.com/listings/index.cfm?action=dsp.info&mlsnum=1040815&dayssince=&countysearch=false

From the property description: "HOUSE TO BE SOLD IN *AS IS* CONDITION. RESTORE OR REBUILD THIS CHARMING HOME."

socialist, you can get a very nice house for that in many nice towns and you can get a small fixer upper in any top notch town. we're not talking luxury or achitectural uniqueness, but certainly the equivalent of a post war 1200sq 2/2 box - good enough.

love this one, it's higher than 500k but under 1mil. our future is still uncertain and we may relocate or we may not, but if we were in nj for good, i would buy this little fairytale gingerbread house.

http://www.trulia.com/property/3034219886-15-Ferndale-Rd-Short-Hills-NJ-07078

A 2 bedroom house? Ouch! That is going to be HORRIBLE for re-sale. In that price range your expected to have 3 bedrooms.

there has to be a way to expand it. it's just so damn cute.

Cute? You mean scary, Imagine being alone there at night.....fun

but it's NOT scary, look how tiny it is. big tudors are spectacular, but they really are kind of creepy inside. this place is like the cottage where little red riding hood's grandma lives. or something.

there are many good school districts on LI where you can get a nice split level or similar house with a yard for around $500k.

http://www.mlsli.com/unidetailsredo_test.CFM?MLNum=2349689&typeprop=1&start=1&rpp=100

http://www.mlsli.com/unidetailsredo_test.CFM?MLNum=2371117&typeprop=1&start=1&rpp=100

http://www.mlsli.com/unidetailsredo_test.CFM?MLNum=2375732&typeprop=1&start=1&rpp=100

anyone can apply to stuyvesant BS etc, and anyone can strive to be eligible to apply to hunter

only the wealthy can afford to live in scarsdale, rye, bronxville and burbs with the best schools

5thGenNYer. those house all require a few 100k worth of renovations, just to get them into 21st century. they all seem to be 50-60 years old. so who knows what other maintenance issues they might have.

And your kid'll come home with a LI accent.

Great point Wtushy!

I can't get over TOP. The number of children in the city went DOWN. Its like only white (and to a lesser extent Asian) kids count.

"there are many good school districts on LI where you can get a nice split level or similar house with a yard for around $500k."

You lost me at "split level".

"5thGenNYer. those house all require a few 100k worth of renovations, just to get them into 21st century. they all seem to be 50-60 years old. so who knows what other maintenance issues they might have."

AND you would have to figure out how to move the house out of LI.

jason10006, ever heard of the Three-Fifths Compromise?

i said "split level" or similar style- you may not like it but personally, with 2 kids I would rather live in a split level in a good school district on LI vs. having a JR 4 in the city which is probably what you can get for ~$500k.

And they arent all in need of work:
http://www.mlsli.com/unidetailsredo_test.CFM?MLNum=2348095&typeprop=1&start=1&rpp=100

"Not in a town with good schools. "

Yes, in towns with good schools. Nassau County is $400k median.

"there are many good school districts on LI where you can get a nice split level or similar house with a yard for around $500k."

There certainly are.

And if folks want to pick on $500k houses on Long Island... ask yourself what you get in a family sized apartment in NYC for $1 mil...

sorry, in Manhattan for 1 mil. Inwood?

Well it's solved then. Off to a split level in LI. That was a lot easier than I thought it would be.

arrived in my mailbox this morning. norhtside, summit. arguably as top notch as it gets in easily commutable, walkable, "real" towns in ny metro.

http://www.trulia.com/property/3046989371-159-Summit-Ave-Summit-NJ-07901

this is the real competition to family apartments in good school zones. not some mythical million dollar split level in a crappy town.

Well it's solved then. Off to a split level in LI. That was a lot easier than I thought it would be.

It doesnt HAVE to be a split level. there are other similar size houses of different styles for the $500k price range.

> Well it's solved then. Off to a split level in LI. That was a lot easier than I thought it would be

Certainly easier than shoving 4-5 folks into 900 square feet in Manhattan...

And, btw, it is TWO split levels.

For $1 mil, you can get a lot more.

Most people who live in Manhattan rent and do not own. Most who live in Manhattan do not go to private school. Just add just the number of private school spots per year - at a somewhat decent to good private and it's quite low compared to who lives here. Most kids go to public school. We pay a rent premium to live in a good district. Most of the wealthy people I know who live here send their kids to public school. Adding in 38 or 76K a year is not really relevant when most kids go to public school. Yes we do sacrifice on space but then again we don't have to clean that extra 2000+ sf. Since I don't ever want to get behind the wheel again I don't have much choice. The suburbs are not for us. btw i really like my kid's public school and I love walking to the school within 7 minutes. Nothing like it.