Upper West Side vs. Brooklyn

Hello Lore,

look in Brooklyn. I am from Amsterdam, also a city girl and I lived for 10 years in Manhattan. After my daughter was born in '05 we still remained in the Village for 3 years. But in 2008 we moved to Brooklyn and I will never move back to Manhattan. Brooklyn is city living but a lot more relaxed than Manhattan. Very family friendly and you get so much more for your money here.
If you are worried about restaurants and cafes, focus on Carroll Gardens, Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill and Park Slope. There are phenomenal eateries in these neighborhoods and these communities are all just a short train ride to Manhattan. Good luck, Vanessa

By way of analogy (even if apples v. oranges), where in London do you live, and where in London would you live if your bun were baked?

why not UES if you need to get to Midtown East???

you'll definitely get more bang for the buck in Brooklyn. I would just avoid Boerun Hill from VBrown's list. the schools are still bad and it doesn't have as much going on as the other neighborhoods mentioned.

In terms of price, you should be able to find what you're looking for in either area. Brooklyn is obviously much bigger than the UWS, so I'd start to narrow down your list of neighborhoods there. I disagree with avoiding Boerum Hill outright - it's a much improved neighborhood, with enough "going on", and you don't really have to worry about schools yet if the bun's still in the oven and you're just looking to rent. The only thing I'd add is an elevator building is probably going to push your budget, especially if you're looking UWS below ~86th.

Bstone Brooklyn (minus Bk Heights) = Fulham + better eats.

"We are considering both UWS and Brooklyn because they are known for value"

Finding a decent 2 bedroom in the UWS for less than $4000 will be difficult. Your perception of the neighborhood may be a bit dated. With your budget and desire to be convenient to Midtown East, I would focus on the UES.

I wouldn't necessarily peg the UWS as good for 'value', though if you're willing to move a bit north of what's considered 'prime' you will find some decent deals.

Personally I'm partial to the UWS myself and would not consider living in Bklyn. I just happen to love the character and the feel of the UWS. But--I have plenty of friends who swear by Bklyn and say they would not consider moving back to Manhattan.

Since I have no Brooklyn experience or wisdom to impart, I can only speak about the UWS. Yes, it is very child-friendly, there are terrific restaurants and great neighborhoods. We've recently purchased in what is known as 'Morningside Heights'--right near Columbia University--and are very excited about living there (we've been living on West End in the low 90s for the past several years). I absolutely adore Riverside Park (IMO even nicer than Central Park, which can get crazy-crowded).

If you are able, it would make a lot of sense to visit before making any final decisions and wander around the nabes you are considering, both UWS an Bklyn, and see which 'feels' best to you.

One thing I would consider about Brooklyn and what has always held me back, but is not a consideration for many is transport OUT of Brooklyn.

I live on the UWS, small growing family, 2BR 1 BA and am paying just under $4000 in a well run elevator building. I wonder sometimes about Brooklyn but mainly because I hear the buzz. I work in NJ, and both our families live either North or West of Manhattan, so Brookly n adds to everyone's commute for family events (and doubles or triples my daily commute.)

My impression is that it is also tougher to travel out of NY from Brooklyn than from the UWS, except maybe to JFK and the Hamptons. But I am 17 mins in the morning from LGA and 27 mins from JFK, about the same from EWR. Travelling North you are already halfway through the traffic to the GWB, past which most things move.

Also there are multiple choices for getting out of the city N, E or W, which Brooklyn just doesn't have without first crossing into other possibly problematic areas (to go N have to go via either Queens or Manhattan, W either Verrazano or Manhattan).

I would stay away from brownstone buildings if you're starting a family. The cons:

1. Walking up stairs.
a. Shopping bags, stroller (not yet), etc..
2. Noise issues. Floors are not concrete. Impact noise and airborne noise is a big issue.
a. Walls are 1 layer drywall or equivalent like plaster.
b. Floors and ceiling are the same as above issue.
c. Can hear everybody walking/running/high-heeled shoes/men's dress shoes going up and down the stairs next to your unit.
d. Your baby will cry a lot and you will not get any sleep the first 6 months to 2 years :) so pick a floorplan where at least ONE OF YOUR ROOMS ISN'T sharing a wall with your neighbors.

Anyway, I guess I'm saying look for:

1. Elevator building. Preferably with more than 3 elevators if possible.
2. Look for sound construction practices. (i.e. thick walls, concrete floors, solid core doors)
3. Washer/Dryer or hook-ups if available.
4. Brooklyn area. (DUMBO, Downtown Brooklyn, Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope)

Good luck.

I'd stick with London.

AvUWS, getting out of Brooklyn is not as troublesome as you might think, depending on where you're going. I live in Williamsburg (obviously not representative of the borough as a whole), but getting to LGA is very quick (although 17 mins from the UWS sounds absolutely shocking to me, I don't remember from when I lived there). JFK is pretty fast, provided you know when to avoid the LIE (I take Bushwick Ave), and again I'm amazed you can do UWS-JFK in 27 mins unless you live in Penn Station and take the LIRR (and even then).

Going to all points north, you can hop on the BQE to 95 or 87, which is usually fine depending on where you get on the BQE (traffic can be bad through much of Brooklyn though). It usually takes us just under 90 mins to get to north-central Orange County (taking the Palisades). Jersey is a different story, depending on where you're headed. If it's the shore, it's actually not bad compared to other NYC options; if it's northern Jersey, you're looking at a pretty long commute. Hoboken is manageable if you're near the L, as it's an easy transfer to the PATH (if you can stand the PATH that is). Hope that's helpful.

1OneWon makes an excellent point--general rule of thumb is that buildings originally intended for single-family use (like most brownstones) are just not anywhere near as soundproof as those built as multiple dwellings. Personally, I would never, ever want to rent or buy in a multi-unit brownstone for this very reason. That and the fact that it is always a bit humbling to realize your entire apartment was once someone's 'study'. Yech.

I would add that the UWS having two parks within an easy walk is a huge, huge plus for little kids. You can sacrifice some space when you can spend half your days outside with child. I love BK, don't get me wrong, but we've found the UWS to be easy as pie with two little children, so far.

Agreed - parks is a no brainer for UWS vs almost all of Brooklyn, with the exception being Park Slope, where it really comes down to your preference for CP vs PP, although even then having Riverside there as well is great.

Lore, I lived in SW3 and SW7 for 10 years... in my view, UWS is similar... Brooklyn is like SW11...

If commute time to job in east midtown is a concern , the upper west side would not be optimal - having to go down and then across town is a major pain, and takes time . Stick to the UES, IMHO.

Do you commute?

wow--i never agree with Alan (he who bashes my way UWS neighborhood) but on this one we agree: why not stay with London?

Just in case your move doesn't go through or if NYC is temporary, make sure you have school applications ready to go upon birth. If you're British, you know it's first-come-first-served - for schools close to/and in London + Eton's group, people often send the forms from the hospital.

IMO, as a long-time-ish UWSer and frequent visitor to West London, most of Chelsea, Kensington is nicer than the UWS (also the area is much bigger so more variety) or Bk. Bk is more like Clapham & Fulham than UWS is like Chelsea/Ken.

Also, if you're UK citizens, there are advantages to being UK-born UK citizens (though of course, you might want to grab the chance of having a US-born baby of UK parents).

eliz: Because people move from London and other U.K. because of career opportunities.
Very important, considering the bun in the oven.

And the weather.(It's better than London, but not as great as California.
O.K. Jason.)

buyer222 has it exactly right. That's the comparison.

I'd look into Williamsburg / Greenpoint. For your budget you can find a 2BR, with washer / dryer (important with baby!), and possibly outdoor space in a new construction. Definitely not on the UWS. Commute is very fast to Midtown East (train or boat). Many young families in the area but also lots going on in terms of music scene, bars, etc.

Hello Everyone!

Thank you so much for your responses. This is all really helpful, sadly we can't stay in London.

We will be visiting a month before relocating and this thread has provided an excellent list to start looking. Again, thanks all so much for your help. And if you have any afterthoughts please keep them coming!

-Lore

Would also help to know where you need to get in Midtown East. Getting from the UWS to midtown east isn't necessarily the easiest thing in the world... My wife used to commute from 67th and Broadway to 50th and 2nd, and that took 3 trains and 40 minutes in the morning.

UWS is great place to walk around with a stroller. Parks are nice, but real benefit is when the kid is older and can run around. Very easygoing place to live. The posters above who compared it to Chelsea are close - but UWS is a lot more casual (some point about NYC in general vs London) and less chi-chi / posh (though just as expensive)

BK can be similar, but patchier in terms of nice vs. not so nice. More like Fulham 10 years ago.

i've lived in 15 neighborhoods including the UWS, the UES, Park slope, and Cobble Hill, and prefer my current area, Williamsburg, hands down over any of the others. It simply has the most contemporary, casual, fun, restaurants, music venues, art galleries, shops, etc.. plus it's totally convenient to either downtown or midtown for work. FYI - married with one kid in local public (1st grade), and has had great teachers and there are wonderful programs for kids of all ages.

If you go to Williamsburg to look, go to the little kid place called PLAY at 33 Nassau - http://www.playspacenyc.com/. Wonderful for babies and the preschool set.

local playgrounds - Grand and Wythe, McCarren Park - Lorimer and Driggs, and Marcy + Metropolitan. (there's more). You'll have better luck getting a nice apt with washer/dryer for your budget. commute will be 20-25 minutes door to door. UWS or Park Slope, Cobble Hill will take longer.

Bramstar posted about Morningingside Heights. It's a great alternative to the pricier UWS in the 80's and IMO has a more european and diverse feel due to Columbia U. So, you have a mixture of families, professors, students, etc. Keeps it more interesting and fun.

Columbia is European?

Columbia County?

But, at the same price point (4k Morningside v. 4k Boerum Hill v. 4k Williamsburg v. 4k Bk with good eats), what do you prefer? Better green space or better food & street life. I would go for the latter, hands down.

I agree with 10023 on that one. I would also point out that the park is mainly for you in the child's first year and at least through the following year they don't really care how many acres there are or whether there is a jogging loop. A couple of convenient playgrounds seems to suffice.

> why not UES if you need to get to Midtown East???

Agreed. UES is cheaper than UWS in parts (wider range on both high and low end), better midtown east access, and beats UWS on the other elements you noted IMHO... . $4k for 1000 is doable, with some compromises. Your money will go further in Brooklyn... but, well, there is generally a reason for that. Brooklyn will also have good downtown access, midtown east, not quite as much. But you'll get more space, indoor and outdoor.

"But, at the same price point (4k Morningside v. 4k Boerum Hill v. 4k Williamsburg v. 4k Bk with good eats), what do you prefer? Better green space or better food & street life. I would go for the latter, hands down."

Agreed. If the point was green space, we'd be living on LI. We're already paying more to live in "the city", so why not take advantage of those things. Personally, I'd go with Boerum... the best food in Brooklyn is in the CH/CG/BH zone...

Hello Everyone! Thank you so much for your comments and points of view. This is really helpful. We will be in NYC a month prior to the move date and this has provided us with a really good shortlist of neighborhoods to check out.

Best,
Lore