"Rental Brokers are Useless"

duh

Truly insightful and thought-provoking commentary from Bottoms, as per usual.

UrbanEdge, you're not just promoting your properties here, are you? I am not a huge fan of broker services either - they don't add much value for my purposes. But they are helpful for renters who don't have the time or inclination to do the research and negotiation. Calling them "useless" is completely dismissive, and, well, useless.

The service provided is to the owners, not the tenants.

as jim says, what that lady doesn't realize is that unless she has acquired the services of a tenant's broker, the agent is working on behalf of the landlord and not her.

Essentially what she's saying is, "I didn't want to pay the fee, I kept getting conned because I did an ass-backwards search. I found something myself. Therefore all brokers are useless."

What are your thoughts on rental agents who run a referral business? Did they get to that point by being useless to the clients they worked with?

Other than brokers, I am 100% certain no one else on these boards will disagree with TOP.

I too have NEVER needed a broker. I think anyone with the time and an internet connection can find an apartment nowadays. I HAVE seen many apartments through owners' brokers, and in each and every case, an identical unit, often in the same building, was available without said brokers.

jason, I ain't no broker and I disagree to a point. SE posters are kind of a self-selecting group, no? I agree with you - most of us here have no real use for a broker, but we put the time in without much of a thought. There are plenty of people out there who would prefer to pay and avoid doing the work. I think that's a poor use of cash, but that don't mean it doesn't happen.

Basically you are looking to be in a typical highrise rental building you don't need a broker. If you need more space in a brownstone at a lower rent or something more specific or unique, your better options will probably involve a broker. Big management companies and open listings that are easily accessible to the public online (such as through nybits) are generally not going to be the best deals around, especially if you plan to stay more than 1 year. I am talking about Manhattan; I don't know Brooklyn.

falco, when does the chemical castration of the lower classes begin?

i feel sorry for the people looking at apts in my building with brokers--obviously the broker doesnt inform them that most in the building rented direct, and didnt pay the 15% of a year's rent commission that they will pay

despite blowjob's comments, they might resent this, and not consider the "services" of their broker worthy

@bjw2103 yes, there is a bit of self-promotion for our website (not "properties," as we don't own or manage the properties--they come from several different landlords). However, what I really liked about this article was that she says the things that many people are thinking, but aren't saying.

Some brokers do perform a valuable service... we don't deny that. Particularly if the person searching is under a time crunch. However, as we all know, there are plenty of stories of brokers not doing their homework on the properties, just showing you anything hoping you'll take it, using bait-and-switch, etc. And they give the good brokers a bad name. They also seem to be in the majority, unfortunately.

However, almost everywhere else in the country, you do not use a broker to find a rental apartment, or if you do, it's usually considered a marketing expense by the landlord who pays the fee. The only markets that come to mind that are similar to NYC are Boston and San Francisco, and neither have traditionally relied on brokers as heavily, or had fees as high as, NYC.

Our stand is that, most people really do not need to use a broker to find a rental apartment... they need access to what is available. And anyone who has followed NYC real estate, the lack of a true MLS, etc. understands that brokers have controlled the market by controlling access to information (e.g. listings). And landlords have gone along with it. However, with the internet, that has been changing.

Is everything available no fee? No. Some brokers do have exclusives, and if you want to rent one of those apartments, you'll have to pay. However, why pay a fee on an apartment if you could have gone directly to the landlord? Do your homework, and don't let a broker show you something you can get on your own. Make them earn their fee.

Bottoms, of course there are people who are uninformed and might later regret using a broker. More trenchant commentary! And of course there are people who are happy to pay to avoid the hassle altogether. Like I said, not something I'd ever do, but it does happen.

UrbanEdge, I'm all for increased transparency and making the apartment hunt as user-friendly and painless as possible. There are a couple startups working to do just that here in NYC fortunately. But I think it will take time to get your "everyday" apartment hunter to think of a broker as an absolute last resort.

youre blathering so hard youre slurping all over yourself

Bottoms, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL8e2ujXe8g

brokers are scum of the earth. why i must pay $5-7k to rent a place for a year to a moron with absolutely no intelligence. wasting my time chasing him around the city so he can show me a bunch of crap i have no interest with....why do i do it? b/c they have the "confidential information", ie listings. if that info ever became free to the public, the vast majority of the money would go into the landlords hands instead of the brokers!

but to be honest, i would rather pay the landlord the $5k-7k everytime i move than put up with the dumbass brokers ever again. they never seem to be concerned about wasting time because they never have crap to do with their pathetic lives anyways! in the past 11 yrs with 5 moves in the city, not 1 broker has shown me anything that 5 well taken pics on the internet couldn't have done for essentially free. that's about $25k blown up some brokers nose. i hope they had a few good parties with it at least!

blowjob, not a shock you'd be dumb enough to think i'd watch anything you link

my sentiments are consistent with nyc1234---as are most people i know whove had the misfortune of using a rental broker

but hey....give hones a call--he's a super guy and could use the bidnis...his guccis are all worn and his oliver peeps got broked

I agree bjw that SOME people need brokers. But as you say, no one using SE who is NOT a broker would say people need rental brokers. That is because we all have discovered RE on the interwebs. Every time I email NYBITS, Curbed, and SE to friends, they say "Wow! I will never use a broker again!"

jason, I'm with you there. I think ultimately getting rid of the middleman is ideal. Love that you're getting others on board. I'm convinced part of it is an age thing, as well as where you fall on the having more money than free time or vice-versa spectrum.

Bottoms, I'll summarize the clip for you: gfys.

Wbottom
about 15 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse blowjob, not a shock you'd be dumb enough to think i'd watch anything you link

my sentiments are consistent with nyc1234---as are most people i know whove had the misfortune of using a rental broker

but hey....give hones a call--he's a super guy and could use the bidnis...his guccis are all worn and his oliver peeps got broked

bottom ebonics again why? is it something people your age do to seem young and hip?

UrbanEdgeRealEstate
about 19 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse @bjw2103 yes, there is a bit of self-promotion for our website (not "properties," as we don't own or manage the properties--they come from several different landlords). However, what I really liked about this article was that she says the things that many people are thinking, but aren't saying.

Some brokers do perform a valuable service... we don't deny that. Particularly if the person searching is under a time crunch. However, as we all know, there are plenty of stories of brokers not doing their homework on the properties, just showing you anything hoping you'll take it, using bait-and-switch, etc. And they give the good brokers a bad name. They also seem to be in the majority, unfortunately.

However, almost everywhere else in the country, you do not use a broker to find a rental apartment, or if you do, it's usually considered a marketing expense by the landlord who pays the fee. The only markets that come to mind that are similar to NYC are Boston and San Francisco, and neither have traditionally relied on brokers as heavily, or had fees as high as, NYC.

Our stand is that, most people really do not need to use a broker to find a rental apartment... they need access to what is available. And anyone who has followed NYC real estate, the lack of a true MLS, etc. understands that brokers have controlled the market by controlling access to information (e.g. listings). And landlords have gone along with it. However, with the internet, that has been changing.

Is everything available no fee? No. Some brokers do have exclusives, and if you want to rent one of those apartments, you'll have to pay. However, why pay a fee on an apartment if you could have gone directly to the landlord? Do your homework, and don't let a broker show you something you can get on your own. Make them earn their fee.

Urbanedge just looked at your website. You have maybe 25% or 30% or the available inventoy. Major gaps with landlords that only list through brokers or just aren't on your radar. Shameful for you to pretend that your site (or any other comes close to having all the info). The only one I've seen that comes close is Urban Sherpa at least they tell the truth about not having certain landlords.

"...Urbanedge just looked at your website. You have maybe 25% or 30% or the available inventoy. ..."

If you look at rental no fees on his site, SE, Craiglist ("by owner" only), and NYBITs, I am pretty sure one at LEAST doubles that percentage. Which is good enough for most people.

Furthermore, thanks to NYBits, you can actually call buildings you WANT to rent in and find out about availabilities not yet advertised. True of my building and many others I have looked at. I.e., currently they only list Sept/Oct listings, but know of units that will be open Nov-March, and you can lock in a lease far int he future. i have done so in the past. My buidling only advertises two available, but really will have four between now and November.

What brokers dominate is rental listing for condos and coops. But even then, they are often (though not mostly) fee paid by LL.

"...Urbanedge just looked at your website. You have maybe 25% or 30% or the available inventoy. Major gaps with landlords that only list through brokers or just aren't on your radar. Shameful for you to pretend that your site (or any other comes close to having all the info). ..."

First, that sounds like a broker's argument. :) Scare people into thinking they have to use a broker. LOL This falls back on what I said earlier... brokers traditionally have cornered the market by controlling access to the inventory, as opposed to adding value and providing a service that someone can't do on their own. Kudos, however, to the good brokers who understand what business they are in, and the service they are providing.

I never made any claims as to how much of the available inventory we have, let alone that we have everything. In fact, I did say "Is everything available no fee? No. Some brokers do have exclusives, and if you want to rent one of those apartments, you'll have to pay." I then went on to say "...Do your homework, and don't let a broker show you something you can get on your own. Make them earn their fee." So, I'm not sure how that is misleading people into thinking we have every apartment available--just the opposite.

Plus, since our site is 100% free to use, if you don't find something that fits your needs, it doesn't cost you a thing to look. We do updates 6 days a week, so there are always new apartments being added, and removed as they rent.

There are some landlords, such as Pan Am, who only show through brokers. We know that, we never said anything to the contrary. However, with thousands of apartments listed on our website, a lot of people can rent an apartment on their own, and not pay a broker's fee that they otherwise might have paid.

Our goal is to have as many apartments offered for no fee from owners and property managers as possible. We are working hard to get these listings, but we are aware not everyone is on board, and we know that will take time... particularly in the outerboroughs where the number of small landlords is greater. Even established sites like StreetEasy don't have every rental apartment, and they've been around a lot longer than we have.

UrbanEdgeNY.com has thousands of listings, no bait-and-switch ads, no ads for the same apartment listed 5 times by 5 different agents, no brokers pretending to be the owner. Can we help everyone? No, but we can help a lot of people find an apartment without using a broker, and without paying a fee.

But hey, it's all good. :) Thanks to jim_hones10 for the opportunity to further clarify what we do.

Speaking as a renter and as a landlord, I understand why people avoid rental brokers: their services are very expensive, and so many are just awful. I wouldn't say they are all useless though. Some do provide some value, even if not commensurate with 15%: a knowledgeable, professional broker will cut through fake or bad listings/prospective tenants, and get both renter and landlord to be reasonable in their expectations. New York is filled with neurotic, weird and plain anti-social, illiterate, high-strung people. Sometimes I read answers to the ads I place as a landlord, and wonder how they get by in the world. Brokers, lawyers and therapists are the worker ants of this high-stress anthill: they keep things moving.

maly, thumbs up for the reasoned and thoughtful post.

bjw, maly wrote a reasoned and thoughful post. It was evident from its content, without needing your "thumbs up". Did you just need to write something positive to feel good about yourself?

urbanedge i'm not trying to scare anyone. if my arguement sounds like "a brokers arguement" then you sound like a shill for your business. which is "all good ;" we've all got to make a living.

i mostly work the property side. the fact that you won't admit gaping wholes in terms of what is offered on your site right now and what is really in the market is startling. at least be truthful.

the fact of the matter is the only people who can provide the whole picture are re agents. the public can decide whether to pay or not. personally, i like the fact that alot of people have exhausted the dyi method before they get to me. it means there is less nonsense i've got to deal with.

@jim_hones10 How many times do I need to say, we don't have every listing out there, and that some listings are exclusives only available through brokers, before you stop saying I that I'm trying to claim we do have every listing? I said we have thousands of listings (which we do), not every listing. LOL I swear, you only read the parts of what I have written that suit your narrative. But hey, thanks for keeping the thread alive. LOL

Jim is a gigantic asshole. No one in a "service" business should be as rude as he consistently is.

jason is right, no one would get very far carryingnon in real life the way i do on this board. jason, you're an asshole to. what is it you do for a living that justifies it?

urbanedge you consistently say that the listings you dont have are only broker listed exclusives. that isnt true.

Well, I personally wouldn't use a rental broker, but that's because I am too dang cheap. Just like I don't want to live in a building with a doorman. But that's me again. For many, I think these people provide value for the money.

> I said we have thousands of listings (which we do), not every listing.

I'm curious, how many available apartments are out there to begin with?

Well, I'm a landlord, and some of my brokers have been as useless to me as they are to renters.

A couple of years ago, I had a broker that I listed a short term rental with, I needed a tenant for 6 months to 9 months. The "brokers" called me no less than 10 times trying to talk me into renting the property for 1 year, 2 years, even a 3 year lease. We eventually landed with a tenant that found us on the net, and I had to pay the brokers a half month fee, even though they didn't bring me the tenant. The next broker I ended up with checked the broker network and the property was NEVER listed as short term. It was listed as a 1 YEAR minimum, even though we did not want a one year.

My new broker is better on the specifics of the unit, but he won't return phone calls and only responds to emails two or three days after I send them. I would never wait more than an hour or two to return calls from my clients.

So, no, I have no idea what the rental brokers are smoking, but I need one. I don't have time to show the unit at odd hours, I can't hang out waiting for no-shows. I don't want to deal with the tenants who don't really have enough income because I can't cobble together the application info in a way to make them look good. I don't want to deal with renters who think the unit is "too big", "too small" "not enough bathrooms" or whatever. So I have to use a broker.

But I think we have an underlying mythology going on; there are plenty of apartments available in NYC. This "oh, it's so hard to find an apartment" thing is BS, and has been for decades. There are thousands of apartments available at the first of every month, a quick search on SE shows perfectly good apartments sitting empty for months at a time. This myth is broker propaganda.

needsadvice - any relation to hole4?

NeedsAdvice, I'm pretty sure we spoke on the phone about the possibility of me representing your apartment. Then this agent you previously used called you back (after not calling you for several days) and you decided to go with him instead. I can assure you I would NEVER go several days before returning a phone call, especially to a client.

needsadvice, here's a thought, why dont you put a bit of time into it and get a referral and then develop a relationship with someone who can help?

@NYCREAgent: Well, go ahead and get it rented, half a commission is better than none :)

We're looking to establish a long term relationship with a reliable broker.

Needsadvice- where is the apartment located. I have numerous clients looking for all different types of apartments. Not looking for an exclusive but I am looking to make my clients happy.

What is being missed here people is that the VAST MAJORITY of broker's are useless. They don't know the inventory, only show the crappy open listings for the greed of getting a higher payout by avoiding co-broke listings and in general, half are not even from NY for more than a year or three and can't find the quickest route from point a to b. I am one and I see it all the time. In this city, 5 major landlords control 95% of the Manhattan inventory and they ONLY work with a select amount of brokerage firms. That being said, play nice people. Because a good broker is like a lost love. You don't know what you have until it's gone!