Potential for Downtown Manhattan

If you are talking about the financial district, I don't see that area as changing terribly much with regards to infrastructure. The FD is primarily a commercial zone rather than residential so you won't find as many good markets, bars, restaurants there.

I don't see how you can say that you don't see that area changing much as far as infrastructure. Have you read up on what is being put in at the World Trade Center Site? Each of the buildings going up will have 5 stories of retail space, and that's just in the buildings themselves. The WTC transportation hub will also have space for plenty of retail. That is just what is planned currently, where the move of Conde Nast downtown will only spur further retail development activity. I always am amazed on how FIDI is seen as not having any potential, while places like Harlem are restricted from having a lot of bars and restaurants by the fact that the many churches there impose zoning restrictions. I live in the East Village though I could see myself moving to FIDI based on the massive amount of money being spent there, and the easy access to 2 riverfronts.

FiDi has low residential potential because of the 'urban canyon' nature of the neighborhood. Its narrow dark streets lined with very tall, soul-less corporate buildings does not scream residential hotspot. Alsways feels grim and sad down there. Also many of the residences are redone office bldgs which adds to the charmless-ness. this is not Soho in the 70s as boosters like to claim.

fidi isnt changing any time soon..stone street is the only spot to hang out..If I had to be anywhere id rather be on the other side of west side highway in gateway plaza or something..at least its open over there

I don't think FiDi will ever end up like the LES. LES is mostly low(er) priced housing, NYU drop-outs, hipsters, etc. Most of FiDi's residential buildings are high end condos and rentals. 6 years ago, it attracted people who were looking for a nicer place to live without the high costs of some of the other parts of Manhattan and younger people who worked on or near Wall Street.

FiDi now has a mix of families, single people and couples. I have read numerous articles that say the per capita income in FiDi is far higher than anywhere else in the City (except for maybe park avenue). That is because unlike most every other part of town, there are very few old cheap residential buildings. I think the per capita income is over $135K/year.

I think over time, FiDi will be its own neighborhood. It will be different than any other neighborhood. It will not be the next SoHo, West Village, Midtown or anything else - it will be unique.

While there are not nearly the concentration of bars and restaurants in FiDi there are in other parts of town, I will tell you that there are far more than just 3 years ago. It used to be only delis and take out places. There are numerious restaurants and bars. A few years ago the few restaurants and bars that were open were rarely crowded after 6:00 - that is not the case now.

I'm not saying FiDi will ever have the night life that the LES does. It is and is becoming a true neighbohood. While many people don't like the numerous tall buildings, many of the buildings are beautiful and as such, FiDi has some of the best architecture in NYC.

The completion of the WTC will help with the retail a great deal. The one thing FiDi is lacking (IMO) is retail. While there are plenty of grocery stores, dry cleaners and other basic services along with an Hermes and a Tiffany (which sounds nice but are not overly practical), what FiDi needs is what I would call "every day" typle retail. Think of things like bananna republic and Sefora (although there is a sefora).

The area below canal has like 6X the people it did in 2,000. Its CERTAINLY changed even in the past decade. You have to consider not just Wall Street (or Stone Street) but South Seaport, BPC, and depending on where you live, Tribeca.

Agreed.

> fidi isnt changing any time soon

If you don't think it hasn't already, I'm not sure what you are looking at.

Not saying it will be perfect, but you are talking about an area that will have good schools, few projects, great transportation, and water/park access... not to mention being close to tons of jobs. The big downside was the lack of people... but the growth of residents and amenities over the last 10 years has been incredible, especially considering the construction. Crain's did some coverage on recent lease signings, definitely a lot of stuff you would not have seen there 10 years ago.

It obviously takes some time, but there is tons of potential.

I'm in the camp that in 5 years Fidi will be a completely different - much better, trendier, easier to live in place. Once the Freedom tower is in and the retail and corporate tenants go in, it will be a whole new world down there...

look at this...anecdotal, but it's a good indicator...

http://ny.eater.com/archives/2011/03/death_co_4.php

one of the trendiest retro high end cocktail bars is establishing their footprint in fidi. When leading egde trendy business owners (not to mention conde naste in the freedom tower) establish themselves in a 'hood good things often follow - think Florent or Pastis in the meatpacking. Also note in that article how easy it was to get community board approval for the liquor license, it's the only 'hood like that (by far) downtown...

still thats just stone street. its the buildings that will always make fidi feel sterile

I've worked in the neighborhood for several years now and agree with those saying it certainly has changed. As downtown1234 said, a lot of well-heeled New Yorkers have settled here, and where there's money, development will follow. It's a very convenient neighborhood for some, and while it isn't my taste at all, there's no doubt it has great appeal to others. And there's more than just Stone Street.

although i am not in the market to buy i could see the rationale of buying in fidi area. i dislike the place simply due to all the brooks bros mindless clones and lack of any female talent in the area.

but from a business perspective, manhattan below 14th street has now reached close to the outer limits of 'hood development. crackhead bowery, fixed. morphine east village, fixed. stinky meatpacking district, fixed. dirty chinatown, fixed. by "fixed", of course, i mean gentrified with good restaurants.

if u r looking to the future & particularly to buy in the city at the least possible buy/rent ratio, why go to harlem when u can get the same price downtown? u better know how to cook though in the meantime! worst case, it is not that far from the big bulk of downtown nightlife, def closer than any of the other "cheaper" areas.

>I am looking to buy something and I like the prices in lower Manhattan, but I can't get over the fact that it is so isolated and that there are not that many bars and restaurants there. Do poeple think downtown has lower east side potential or will it remain about the same?

Only in the last 15 years have [some] people in Manhattan decided that it is a good idea to shit where they eat. Frankly, if you aren't post-college 5+/- years or have rationale and money like the Stern family (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303550904575562582610921088.html), you shouldn't be living so close to where you are going to bars and restaurants.

Read a recent SE thread on where crime occurs ... it's in the west village, so the people who LIVE in this hot neighborhood attract the criminals who are trying to prey on the temporary restaurant and bar crowd.

columbiacounty is a sad, discredited invalid and w67thstreet is a dirty ape with monkey children.

Does "female talent" mean hookers?

@cynar - of course, the suits take em all

FIDI is not for us but seems like a good place for families if you work downtown. What it needs badly is a Wholefoods/eqt which will change it completely just like new Wholefoods in Tribeca bought significantly more activity closer to Chambers street and below. Warren street has improved significantly in the last 3 years.

Whole Foods in Tribeca is within a $5 cab ride to anywhere in Fidi. Not a big deal for most.

It's bizarre that people ever mention grocery stores as an issue in the FiDi. Most of the housing stock in the FiDi is closer to decent grocery stores than the vast majority of units in the city. There's three perfectly acceptable places within a few blocks of each other around Maiden Lane and William; if you happen to live in the southwest corner that's further away from that cluster you can walk to the terrible Gristedes in Battery Park and if you live in the northern part you can walk to Whole Foods.

jordyn, I agree with you 100%. There are Zeytuna (gourmet), Jubilee (gourmet with bigger selections, open 24/7), a surprisingly good Gristedes, and, for those who are price-conscious, Key Foods--all within two to three blocks of each other. I rarely see such a mix of grocery store options within an immediate area elsewhere in the city!

The funny thing is that they have been there for a long while! So, the "there are no grocery stores in FiDi" is a complete urban myth.

To add to jordyn's point about the fringe areas of FiDi (e.g., Greenwich Club), isn't there another Zeytuna in the southwest tip, by Battery Park? So, they won't have to go to that horrible Battery Park Gristedes!!! But I am sure people all do Freshdirect anyhow...

> still thats just stone street.

It is not only stone street. I've gone there maybe once or twice, but have been out tons of times in Fidi in general.

I don't even know why I am defending FiDi because I have no vested interest in this...

somewhereelse is right. Sure, Stone Stree is absolutely great! But it is a leap to say that there is nothing else. The stretch along John Street (between Gold and Pearl?) has a row of bars and restaurants, flooded with people. Although as condensed, Maiden Laine between William and Pearl, too, has a row of those.

On Pine Street, there is a Japanese restaurant which I believe is among the best in NYC in the price range: Ise. In addition, in areas surrounded by Maiden, Broadway and Water, there appears to be a concentration of higher-end restaurants, including SHO, Haru, Capital Grill, Wall & Water, etc. I don't think I've seen such a concentration elsewhere in the city.

Before asserting that there are no grocery stores, bars or dining options in FiDi, I think people should actually visit.

It's come a long way (Fidi not BPC) and I ended up including it in my searches for a while.
However, it is an expensive enough cab ride away from everything else though to almost be thought of as another borough.

>it is an expensive enough cab ride away from everything else though to almost be thought of as another borough

Fair enough, I suppose, but it might depend on where you spend most of your social and professional lives. If you usually spend time in, say, as north as the Harold Sq. area, UES/UWS in the 80s would be pretty much equidistant with FiDi, wouldn't it?

FiDi feels far, perhaps because many of us are unfamiliar with it and, besides, we can't quite visualize/conceptualize the distance there--due to the lack of numbered streets/avenues.

"FiDi has low residential potential because of the 'urban canyon' nature of the neighborhood."

it's suffocating

" Zeytuna (gourmet), Jubilee (gourmet with bigger selections, open 24/7"

unless it's undergone a significant change in the 10 years since i lived in that neighborhood, zeytuna is a pretty useless very expensive store, you can't really feed your family grocery shopping at zeytuna. and i remember jubilee being basically a 24/7 korean deli with a slightly wider selection, but ridiculous prices also not really suitable to nourish a family or anyone who does not eat out 90% of the time.

the thing about the awesome new world trade center and all the exciting things it will bring is there has already been an awesome world trade center with all kinds of exciting things and fidi was still a pretty stupid place to live. do people remember the old wtc? it was a tourist trap and an office building, who actually went there?

lol at "condensed" and "flooded with people" what a nice way to put that! the streets are very narrow and are incredibly crowded. you can't walk having a conversation with 2 friends, i don't know how people push around strollers down there or just stroll with their family, it has a very overwhelming and hectic feel. i know people with kids live down there, but i don't get it.

right, so my point is if you want to buy there, don't let anyone fast talk you around these very real factors of life down there. residential housing down there should be priced appropriately for it's awful location.

lucille: unless it's undergone a significant change in the 10 years since i lived in that neighborhood,...

Zeytuna is not the best, but I can assure you things have changed considerably in the neighborhood in 10 years.

Tommy2Tone: There are a lot of families and it is actually a very family-friendly neighborhood. There are also a lot of college-aged people and a good amount of singles/couple in their '30s and '40s, as well as a smattering of seniors. What I liked best about the residents of the nabe is there is definitely a sense of community.
Things to love about FiDi (the awful acronym not withstanding): Beautiful architecture and a palpable sense of history; more wide-open outdoor spaces than most nabes in the city (Battery Park, Hudson River Park, Vietnam Memorial; Urban Acre; Hanover Square) nearly every subway in the city; if you cab, you can get uptown very quickly going up either the FDR or the West Side Highway—quicker, often than you can get from, say, Greenwich Village to Columbus Circle; 24/7 Duane Reade; fantastic restaurants (not as plentiful as some nabes, but enough that you could eat at a different place every night for a month, easy); a couple of good hardware stores; far more spacious apartments than most anywhere in Manhattan and non-hipster Manhattan-adjacent Brooklyn at good prices.
Things not to like about FiDi: If you socialize uptown frequently and cab home, you will probably take more expensive cab rides than you would like; nights and weekends you will not have a sense of constantly busy sidewalks and stores every 20 feet that you get elsewhere (this is a positive, in my opinion—but some people like activity all around them all the time), but don't consider the area the ghost town that some think it is. It is not, by any means.
Like any neighborhood, it's a matter of what's important to you. (You couldn't pay me to live in the East or Middle Village, for example). If the area appeals to you and you don't spend four nights a week out with friends in "their" hood, it could be worth seriously considering. Your original question was the potential for downtown. Knowing the area for what it is now (not what it used to be or what I perceive it to be based on visiting)and knowing the development plans, I would say yes, it will continue to improve. Not at the pace plenty of areas did over the last decade, but yes.

Sorry, just saw the "LES" part of "LES potential". No, the area isn't gritty enough to be interesting to those wanting that sense of edge.

riiiiiiight. that first part referred to zeytune and jubilee, where i havent had to shop for groceries for 10 years. i've been to fidi since then! wtf it's still a crowded loud as hell smelly place where people should only live at a discount.