Sale at 37 West 12th Street #2K

Oh, I forgot to mention that it sold for $1.295MM in early 2008.
I'm certain of that.

I know the building, and the apartment. It doesn't need any work, and is in mint condition. Is worth the asking price in my opinion.

Huntersburg, it looks like you submitted a comment that isn't there. Did you?

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I strongly prefer 2K's floorplan to 6K's floorplan in every possible way. Two good size full baths trump a tiny bathroom and an oddly large en suite bathroom, where overnight guests would need to come to shower. 6K has no walk-in closet anywhere and loses the best wall of the bedroom to an endless row of small closets / cheap built-ins, so I don't think you end up with any more usable space. 6K's kitchen seems claustrophobic, with the only entrance from the possible second bedroom. (And I can't believe that's a new kitchen - yikes, it looks 15 years old already.)

For me, 2K is the better apartment despite the lower floor. It's interesting, though, to compare the 2008 listing to the 2011 listing. It looks like the owners completely renovated what was probably a less than 10 year old kitchen and removed a lot of built-ins, moldings, a decorative fireplace, and some sliding walls. As someone who loves postmodern architecture, I respect the way the owners of 2K have restored it to its 60s fabulousness with a touch of modernity, but ouch, this has to be rough on their bottom line.

6K is just horribly (and cheaply, for the building) done. You'd need to gut renovate their renovation in order to get any of the postmodern feel back.

Lad - I think 2K is way more chic, and the kitchen is WAY better, but I actually love the bathroom setup of 6K. The ensuite bath in 2K is really awkward and small, has a strange, thick (I imagine structural) wall and step up where the toilet is. I think it's a bizarre renovation, whatever it used to look like before the pre-2008 owners got their hands on it.
We really only need 1.5 baths, since, in all honesty, we're not very hospitable when it comes to overnight guests.

But at any rate, trying to figure out the highest price we should pay if we're planning to put in 100k or more of work. If something else came up in the building, we'd probably want to upgrade, without losing money on the initial investment.

Here's the original K-line plan: http://www.columbia.edu/cgi-bin/dlo?obj=ldpd_YR_0659_MH_005_001&size=large

The raised floor in the second bath is to get the drains and pipes to the other bath's plumbing riser.

The layout has a door between bedroom and dressing room, so guests don't have to take the whole tour to get to the bath. A bit more high-end and it would've had a half bath to begin with, but still not planned to be a junior four. At that level, if you want a second bedroom, you buy one.

you don't want to live on the 2nd floor of that building facing 13th street. there is a garage right there--cars are going to be coming in and out all morning and all evening--you will here the beep every time the door opens. obviously the renovation of 2k is far superior to 6k. but those four flights make a huge difference.

Happyrenter, I never thought of that garage issue. We've been in the apt several times, and I didn't hear it at all, but the windows were closed. With great windows like those, I'd probably want them open.
The place is pretty small for us anyway. I'm dying to live in that building, but just missed the affordable 2brs that were on the market earlier this year. Who knows when the next will come up?
That's not rhetorical. Anyone got a crystal ball?

heisenberg, did you get outbid on the two bedrooms?

Jim, we did get outbid on 6A. Probably for the best, since it was a real stretch financially. The maintenance in that one is $3500. The other, more affordable ones, we just missed - started looking after they sold.

>Happyrenter, I never thought of that garage issue

Never live before a stop-sign or red light.

Always look for garages. People honk. Doesn't even need to be a long honk. Think of that nice spring day, windows open, breeze, every 15 or 30 minutes, that short honk

Honks carry up 6 flights too.

I'm the owner of 2K. Just to correct happy renter, the garage entrance is not under this apartment -- as anyone can see who cares to look at the W 13th side of the building, the garage ramp is all the way at the east end of the building, under the bedroom of 2J. It's a shame how incorrect information from anonymous commenters is taken as gospel these days.

It is a great deal if the coop will let you convert into a 2 bed room. If this were to be a higher floor - even 3rd floor, there will be 15% premium. There are simply no two bedrooms at this price in the village in a full service building. One downside I believe is that you can not change the windows to double paned. Teich7, is that correct?

teich7, why market this as a 1b/r? Why not show a floor plan with two beds as many new condo two beds are smaller than this.

In my experience, the building and board are very easy and laissez faire about converting the K line to two bedrooms -- several units above me are converted to two bedrooms (with one bath or in one case an added powder room). From what I know, many units, not just the K line, have significant remodels that change the effective number of bedrooms, and the board and building don't get involved. This building has a very smart and professional resident manager who is an engineer and a real expert on the building, btw.

The board has pursued a long-term project to design a uniform new window solution that will allow owners to replace all windows with double pane, modern thermally isolated windows (as they wish, there would be no forced or mass conversion). That engineering exercise is still in progress and has been de-prioritized with the consensus of the shareholders. The building manager is already replacing small panes, as they are cracked, for example, with double glazed panels, since they easily fit. My unit's previous owners installed a "quiet window" in the bedroom so that is effectively double glazed.

The architectural and engineering challenge of preserving the very slim divisions between panes while obtaining thermal isolation and double glazing each and every pane, including the (relatively few) large ~4'x5' panes, is not trivial. I am an engineer and have done whole house remodels, and in my judgment these few larger panes are not worth the expense, nor is getting thermal "breaks" (gaps) in the framing, from either a sound level or energy standpoint. Anyway, the Historic overlay places the W12th facade under Landmarks review, so that is why the building had done several years of work with engineers and window fabricators to understand the challenge of obtaining modern fenestration that preserves the original architectural design. Some shareholders have advocated a cheaper, inherently visually different (and not nice, imo), solution for the W13th facade and presumably interior courtyard fenestration, but that has not been met with support as I understand it.

I'd leave the windows alone. They're a big part of Butterfield House's appeal, even on the 13th Street side.

The two baths are great for a couple. The next owners could turn the den into a bedroom, but it'd be a bit off to market it that way.

Great reno, BTW, especially the colors.

Agreed, NWT, on the windows, and of course the two baths and the colors :-). Thanks

I wouldn't live there. It's claustraphobic

Great, Jake. But sometimes people operate within a budget and have a desired area to live. If everyone could just spend another $1MM to not be "claustrophobic" it would be nice, but that's not very realistic, is it? The Butterfield has higher ceilings than most post-wars and the rooms of nicely proportioned compared to most new condo construction. What do you suggest instead at this price point that is in a AAA location and has what you feel is ample space?

@ heisenberg: everything is a compromise of sorts in NYC RE which leads to a lot of frustration when hunting. If you are looking for a true 2 bdrm at about the same price point as this Butterfield 1 bdrm, you might consider a place like this: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/576887-condop-30-east-9th-street-greenwich-village-new-york They come on the market from time to time. This building is post-war and utterly non-descript. Yet, it is in a terrific location, is very well-maintained, and has excellent financials. The layouts are more or less similar to the Brevoort East across University, but for a less fancy (and stuffy?) building like 30E9 you basically get a 25%+ discount. And while the Butterfield has higher ceilings, it doesn't really matter if one can't afford it. But stepping down a notch in terms of building prestige, you save a lot on monthly maintenance fees and the purchase price enabling you to get a lot more space for your money and still be in the heart of GV even closer to the park. Just an idea...

Great, Jake. But sometimes people operate within a budget and have a desired area to live. If everyone could just spend another $1MM to not be "claustrophobic" it would be nice, but that's not very realistic, is it? The Butterfield has higher ceilings than most post-wars and the rooms of nicely proportioned compared to most new condo construction. What do you suggest instead at this price point that is in a AAA location and has what you feel is ample space?

@ heisenberg: everything is a compromise of sorts in NYC RE which leads to a lot of frustration when hunting. If you are looking for a true 2 bdrm at about the same price point as this Butterfield 1 bdrm, you might consider a place like this: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/576887-condop-30-east-9th-street-greenwich-village-new-york They come on the market from time to time. This building is post-war and utterly non-descript. Yet, it is in a terrific location, is very well-maintained, and has excellent financials. The layouts are more or less similar to the Brevoort East across University, but for a less fancy (and stuffy?) building like 30E9 you basically get a 25%+ discount. And while the Butterfield has higher ceilings, it doesn't really matter if one can't afford it. But stepping down a notch in terms of building prestige, you save a lot on monthly maintenance fees and the purchase price enabling you to get a lot more space for your money and still be in the heart of GV even closer to the park. Just an idea...

teich, congratulations that you are in contract. Are you able to say if you got above ask?

Yes - congratulations - for taking a nice fat loss, having paid (at least) $50,000 more for the place in late 07/early 08, plus the significant monies also put into a huge renovation. Nicely done!

Wow, harsh, matsonjones. It wasn't that huge a renovation - definitely a nice job on the kitchen, but I don't think it cost *that* much. Mostly cosmetic, from what I can tell. Who knows, maybe teich bought something else and got a sweet deal on it to make up for the loss on this one.

heisenberg - New kitchen and millwork, two fresh bathrooms, new (or refinished floors), cosmetic wall changes, fresh storage/closets, and painting/patching? That's not a "huge" renovation?!? What else COULD you have done but put 24K gold leaf on the ceilings?

See the listing from previous sale - he didn't do as much as you think. And, from what I understand, part of the kitchen is Ikea. Looks great, but not custom millwork.

do not forget that you are expected to be down 15% for a purchase at the market peak.