Are brokers really needed?

no really. take a look at all of the apartments on the apartment that are not priced right. You don't need a broker to do that. You can do that all by yourself.

If you're renting then absolutely use a broker. The tenant will pay the commission and you'll avoid the headache of showing the apartment countless times and running credit checks.

If selling, it really depends on how comfortable you are with determining price, negotiating a deal, potentially having to assist a buyer with his board package (if it's a co-op). Also consider the time commitment--hosting open houses and scheduling wiewings can be a drag.

Do buyers need a broker? My former broker, a lovely and knowledgeable person, died several years ago. I am now in the market to buy again and wonder whether I might be better off on my own this time. There is so much information available on the Internet that it's hard to see what value a broker adds for a buyer, although then again, the broker's commission comes out of the seller's pocket, so it wouldn't be costing me anything directly to use a broker. But if the buyer has no broker, might the listing agent be willing to take a smaller commission since it doesn't have to be split? And in such a circumstance, might the buyer be able to negotiate a better price?

hmmm, never heard that one discussed here before...

::cue haters and schillers:: they should be here soon enough....

brokers are a waste of time and money, to both buyers and sellers

Sell without a broker?

1. You can sell w/o a broker if you are an obsessive re fanatic who has been on this chat board for at least the last 3 years.
2. Other than that HIRE a broker and understand what you are hiring. You are hiring an expert sales person, not nessiserily a re afficinado wrt to minute details and esoteric re information. Car salesmen have to know the broad strokes of the different cars but what makes them money is their salesmanship. Want to sell, hire a salesman with deep experience.

---"You can sell w/o a broker if you are an obsessive re fanatic who has been on this chat board for at least the last 3 year"
lol...so true.. and funny

haha falco, sure. It is true that you should understand what you are hiring. Someone whose best interests are not aligned with your own, and whose industry colludes to protect a commission stream. Terrific.

Oh and sure, the renters pay the commission - they never figure that money into the amount of rent they are willing to pay... nope, never.

Interests are always in alignment.
Sellers broker...wants to sell ASAP, as does the seller.
Buyers broker wants you to buy ASAP, as should the buyer.

Valuations, market trends, comping, marketing and advertising, networking....this is what separates the quality of the professional.
Just look at their stats, interview them and see if they sell you.

Buyers broker wants you to buy ASAP, as should the buyer.. not true

right... interests aligned.

sellers broker wants you sell asap no matter what for the commission.
seller may have other things to worry about, like price.

apt sits for a couple of weeks, sellers broker wants to lower the price, first and foremost - no work required - sell it as fast as possible, spare me the seller needs to face reality line.

It is hard to sit and listen to a sales pitch. They are by definition b.s. Sorry, you cant trust brokers, period.

falcogold--go check out the section on brokers in Freakonomics and you'll see exactly why a seller's broker's interests aren't aligned with the seller. The broker wants a transaction as quickly as possible (like you say); the seller wants a good price. When brokers sell their own places they leave their properties on the market longer to get the best price, whereas when they're selling someone else's place they just try to move it as quickly as possible with less regard for getting the best price.

You can do anything on your own (taxes, manage finances,renovate a kitchen etc.) Do you have the time and desire to do so? Would you rather save some money or sit back and let someone else handle it for you. I don't think there is a wrong or a right choice, it's all relative. I am a broker but when I needed an apartment in Greenpoint I hired a local woman whom I used many years ago when I was considering buying a house there. I paid her a commission and she found me a great apartment. (After a few weeks of trying on my own).

I created a company to adjust the brokerage model to the technology and information available to buyers today. It's not for everyone but it does fill a niche and my clients appreciate both the compensation component along with the advice I offer. I have included a link to my blog to clarify what I offer (and maybe because I would like to change the perception "that you can't trust brokers, period).

Keith Burkhardt
The Burkhardt Group
http://ubivoletaudentunicornium.blogspot.com/

I figured I would see the usual sophomoric arguments against brokers. The bottom line is this, and keith B said it. Real Estate Brokers are a TIME SAVING service. I can get into all the knowledge and insight a good broker can provide and how much more they can get you, in addition to bringing objectivity to a deal, but at the end of the day, they are here to save you TIME and EMOTIONAL Stress. You work 80hrs a week, you dont have time to answer every phone call on your property to sell it, or your looking to rent, you dont have months to go see every building in NYC that has something for rent. So you hire a broker. If you know the building you want to be in, then you dont. If you think going to streeteasy your bypassing a broker, your wrong. 99% of all the listing on this website have a broker attached to them. Good Luck.

Expedia is a time saving service......

Let me save you time. It'll cost you 6% of that $2mm studio... But I've got a blackberry and I dress real pretty.

Hello my name is w67. I will charge you $5 per call. $100 per showing and max of 4% no matter what the price. In addition I will be on SE 24/7 to ensure your price is appropriate.

Oh never mind. Look at all the listing prices.... I guess borkers and sellers believe if they don't break rank, prices will go up forever! Oh where is Lawrence Yun when you need objective data.

Btw, false mkts results in lower volume. Bigger bid ask spread. Followed by final capitulation with free fall in prices and trades at below 'mkt' prices as buyers step out of the market and sellers over sell. Bit do go on about borkers.

Don't take too much credit. The bubble was created by more than 60k shoe salesman pitching Prada shoes at the same time.

angeloz, I dont know, I sold my own unit and saved 40k. Didnt take too much time when all was said and done. I think unless you make 1M/year, it is time well spent.

Especially in NYC, if it is priced correctly, it will sell itself. duh.

Of course, nobody is surpsised to see brokers come here to defend their 'industry' and to see brokers even attack those who are opposed to using brokers.

You don't need a broker to sell or buy an apartment anywhere; it's up to each individual to decide what is right for them. But selling the majority of apartments in NYC in this market is not easy and very time consuming (just look at the average time on market statistics).

My typical client works 7am to 7 or 8pm 5 days a week also doing a lot of biz travel and most are making much less than $1M a year. Although I don't represent sellers; I know most of the people I meet would not want to spend 2-5 months trying to sell their apartment and dealing with all the mishegoss that goes along with it.

There is room for everyone in this market and slowly but surely other firms like mine are offering both buyers and sellers alternatives. I think this is good for everyone.

Keith Burkhardt
The Burkhardt Group

brokers are impediments to the process of buying and selling real estate--why they are paid, i do not know

alternatives are good. broker pay at 5-6% commission is too high.

"when brokers sell their own places they leave their properties on the market longer to get the best price,.."

keeping it on the market longer may be a very bad idea in a declining market like Manhattan.

"Hey Keith - are you like the dentist on Seinfeld? - I believe it is"mishegas" - craziness, derived from the adjective - "meshuga" - crazy, related to the noun "meshugana"- crazy one. Spellings are based on a Galician dialect.
As for the broker question - all based on what your definition of "need' ("darft") is.

Perhaps as my link to the tribe is via two Jewish uncles and an aunt (:
But I have seen it spelled this way..
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mishegoss

Can you imagine my Uncle Leo married my fathers sister who then became born again? You have not seen a happier couple and two more wonderful people. And he keeps a kosher house!

I also think the Larry David reference would have been funnier, the one with the lawyer who turns out not to be Jewish (but throws around a lot of Yiddish).lol.

Uncle Leo? did he take your watch?

Not to overdo this but this is worth a read, ahhh I miss Safires column.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/magazine/17ONLANGUAGE.html

I know of more than a few properties that have come to market missed priced, radically reprised and sold.
I have seen properties die the death of 1000 cuts.
I have seen properties set with no $ adjustment age like stinky cheese.
Money is going to be cheap for a long time. There's tons of it sitting on the sidelines and they just made a crazy sit load, gave it to the banks for free so they could go buy treasures and collect the vig.
I'm turning Japanese ......I really think so

Japan is still deflating.

By the way, who says that a brokers job is to get you the best possible price?
Sell quickly at fair market value is what you should expect.
What an apartment closes at is always the best possible price by definition at that very moment.
This is why we use comps and a comp from 15 years ago is of little value in a present evaluation, in the case of a sale.
Good brokers get the best price and the quickest sale because they know what they are doing assuming they also know how to pick good clients.
I would bet the big wheels are picky.

Good brokers get the best price and the quickest sale because they know what they are doing assuming they also know how to pick good clients--

I'd say that was true.

mr suttonplace, congrats on your apt sale. I'm sure you had the TIME and perhaps you priced it right for it to sell quickly. No one ever comes to brokers with the perfect situation. Most properties come to brokers because of Death, Divorce, Job/Investment Loss, or Incarceration. These are not easy situations to deal with, but very common situations Brokers deal with all the time. The other type of clients are looking to upgrade or downgrade and most renters coming to brokers are new to city, so they dont know anywhere but the neighborhoods they saw on "Friends" or "Sex in the City" and/or have horrible credit. They NEED Brokers help. The rest that know the building they want to be in or have all the time in the world to sell, good for you, maybe you dont need a broker....

Of COURSE brokers are needed - who else can so easily make the rest of us feel intelligent, hard-working, and ethical? Brokers are needed to assuage our ego's; they make the rest of us look like fine, upstanding human beings in comparison.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022112/For-Sale-By-Owner-founder-sells-home--using-real-estate-broker.html

Founder of "For Sale by Owner.com" finally sells unit in manhattan using a broker and paid 6%...

KEITH - you are absolutely right - Larry David's divorce attorney would have been a much more appropriate comparison. So there - stop hocking me a chynik!

Lol.

I'm not a huge fan of brokers but if I were selling my place, I would use one - no doubt. I don't want to be the one hosting open houses and answering phone calls from every person who might be interested (many of which occur during the day when I am working and don't want to be bothered). I'm not sure what the average selling time of an apartment is these days, but it seems like a lot of places I look at sit on the market for 6 months. If I knew I could sell my place in 2 weeks, it would be different, but I don't want to bother with questions and open houses for an extended period of time. Having said that, I would never ever use a broker when buying. I'm an attorney so I was able to act as my own broker and collect the commission. If I wasn't able to do that, I would seriously look at a program like Keith's were I could get back a percentage of the commission that goes to the buyer's broker (for purposes of full disclosure, I've never met Keith - I just like the idea of his company and what it offers buyers).

I'm a bit late to this conversation but wanted to weigh in because at RealDirect we take a bit of a different approach. Like Keith, we started a company to give sellers another option between a full service broker and a FSBO. Brokerages do a good job of distributing listings - it's a major hassle to have to upload listings to all of the real estate search sites if you were to do it yourself (and brokers have access to some databases that FSBOs can't get into). Pricing is also best left to someone with experience and access to lots of data. And scheduling and managing contacts are a hassle as well. So we created a web based platform that helps people manage parts of the process on their own, but with the assistance of a licensed broker. For those that want more control over the sale process, and willing to do some work on their own, it can be a best of both worlds approach to selling.

angeloz says "Most properties come to brokers because of Death, Divorce, Job/Investment Loss, or Incarceration."

Most? Really? That's extremely doubtful.

Then he posts a link to the one story that so many insecure brokers like to wave in the face of anyone who's even considering selling their apartment on their own. Pathetic. And I'm sure douglasternyc would have something to add to that story that people don't hear about.

I tend to agree with KeithB's point-of-view on brokers. I think they can be useful, but they are not necessary. I sold my apartment in Manhattan on my own and saved more than 60K. In contract in less than 90 days and completely worth it. It can be done, despite some agents who will do nothing but discourage you or refuse to bring buyers your way. I'm happy to say that I actually met several agents along the way who were more than willing to work with me and didn't resort to the moronic behaviours of the likes of angeloz. I'm not saying it was a cake walk, but it can be done if an owner is willing.

"What an apartment closes at is always the best possible price by definition at that very moment."

Now THAT'S funny!

Yes, brokers are needed. I'm a RE broker licensed and even if i had to sell/lease my own space, I'd broker it out. It's not worth my time/effort to prep, show, and do the paperwork for some of my own spaces. In addition, certain brokers have expertises or contacts that I don't have. So are brokers necessary? Yes.

oldtimer21, if selling your own space is not worth your time/effort to prep, then why other broker(s) should take this job? are you saying your space is a sh1thole that no one will buy? then you don't need a broker because there's no difference anyway

NYRocks, you may be the only person that read my blog post on that deal!

Brokers are VERY important for the following reasons:

1) They have the knowledge to price the apartment appropriately (they can provide you with comps)

2) They will show the apartemnt to the prospective buyers/renters, answer their questions, calls etc.

3) They will qualify the tenants, if a rental - check credit, referencs, bank statements, employment letters and landlord history.

4) They will provide guidance if using a mortgage broker, recommend one, recommend an attorney and stay in constant contact with them to ensure a smooth transaction.

5) They will hold constant open houses and private viewings so you don't have to.

6) They will weed out the unqualified and the non serious.

7) They will make the offers and help throughout the negotiation process every step of the way.

8) If a sale, they will prepare the financial documents and put together the often extensive board package.

9) They will hold themselves accountable if using a reputable broker, and this is of utmost importance.

Please note* I know readers of Streeteasy find it "fun" (for lack of a better word) to say that ALL brokers are horrible, evil, and other hateful descriptions. To those readers, please do not repond. It is bad energy for everyone and ultimately speaks volumes about yourselves.

No.
The same can be said for any profession.
Butcher - not necessary if you like blood and are good with a knife.
Doctor - nope, unless you want to live longer than nature intends.
Dentist - the British are doing just fine thank you.
Architect - haha
Lawyer - just stay of of trouble a$$ hole.
Accountant - not if you are a democrat because you LOVE TAXES are happy paying the maximum.
Financial Advisor = ((SPY+QQQ)/2) - 2%

Cao Ni Ma - actually, my place is quite well desired in an upper end area of the city Cao Ni Ma. The reason for a broker as well is to add an in-between layer to seperate the emotional decisions that may be involved with selling real estate. The broker handles negotiations, commucations, and diplomacy that is needed for these high-dollar deals. Get a brain and realize that brokes without insulting people with your belitting intelligence.

angeloz, yes good for you, the OPs question was 'are brokers needed?' They correct answer is no, not always and certainly not in every transaction, but sure, there are some people who need to overpay a broker. thanks for clarifying.

We recently sold fsbo after working with a broker for 6+ months.

I could write a book. I SHOULD write a book.

Hindsight:
1. failure to price correctly is why we never even received an offer with the broker. Listing price was not even CLOSE.
2. Had the broker said, "if you want to sell in 14 days THIS is your selling price" that would have been very different (vs. pricing more than $125k more than than the final contract price and slowly shaving 2% at a time....)
3. Some say the 3 most important attributes of real estate is "location location, location" -- maybe, but in manhattan it's "price, price, price"
4. pricing is not about neighborhood listings. a listing is not a comp. and a true comp needs way more info than actual price. How do we know that the comp that sold for what appears to be under-market is an amicable divorce settlement? Or the buyer paid the flip tax? Or there was a reno concession? You don't know, unless you get your ass out of the computer and start pounding the pavement. ACRIS doesn't paint the whole picture, and acris data is not what's happening TODAY.
5. To save $60,000, you're gonna have to spend time and money. But unless you make $1m+, take 2 weeks off from work (part time) and just do it -- when budgeting fsbo vs. broker, don't include expenses such as staging (you will do that anyway). You will need to paint and deep clean. You will replace all light bulbs. You will replace that dingy door knob so the very first thing your buyer sees is a bright shiny door knob. You will pay a pro photographer. You will pay for a floorplan. You will need sell sheets (need someone with design experience and a high quality color laser). You will pay for advertising, but if you get the pricing right, it can be only 2 weeks.
6. Consider hiring a consultant. I didn't, but had I hired realdirect.com, I'd have saved money on the advertising AND had a consult on pricing (instead of having to do it all myself).
7. Pricing is everything. Marketing and slick salesmanship only gets you so far...
8. DO YOUR HOMEWORK -- understand the bidding and contract process. Be prepared.

(so much of this reads like what pro agents and brokers bring to the table, yes?)

IF you have basic business skills: can you negotiate and close a deal? can you manage the zillions of details and coordinate with managing agent and lawyers? Can you stop work on a dime to deal with stuff? If you fall into this narrow range, then fsbo may work for you.

My bottom line: I saved a $58k commission, spent about $3000 and took about 6 days off of work. I would do it again.

PS -- to all the brokers reading this, if you want me to value your 6%, offer something that I can't easily do myself. In this current market (which is entirely driven by price), in my opinion, a percentage commission is way too rich. I would have GLADLY paid a $10,000 FEE on closing, but not $60k. You guys priced yourself out of the market for me. If all the sellers starts doing fsbo, the average selling price will drop by 4-5% and we will have a much more active market (because of price). The agents who want to capitalize on this will embrace the fsbo and take advantage of the fee for service model. A few have started doing this...

not sure what you mean by belittling with comments about a poster's belitting intelligence...whatever

the broker handling of negotiations etc, combined with brokers' typical lack of intelligence and clear conflict of interest, is a seriously crappy recipe--any idiot is best equipped to handle their own negotiations with help of a decent lawyer, who they will be retaining anyway--the broker in this case detracts value

key sherpaing/turning is the other role of the selling broker--this adds value, tiny compared to that detracted

for this net detracting of value one is supposed to pay 3-6% on a deal??

I just googled "Cao Ni Ma". Wow

oldtimer21, but after all your bullshit, you still didn't explain why other brokers should take the job to sell your space. even yourself know your space is not worth your time/effort to prep, are you saying other brokers are stupider than you?

so do people need other brokers or just you?

fsbo88 You have of course hit the nail on the head. It is about price, not slick marketing or expensive overhead etc (that is for brand building). I run a very successful company essentially in the cloud. But it is also about the psychology of accepting the truth about what your home is worth. Perhaps the broker did you a bit of a favor, he/she prepared you to accept the truth (;

The problem starts when broker "a" tells you your home is worth $1.85M and Broker "b" tells you $1.725M: Both have a nice title by their name and work for big firms. So who do you go with? This is why it is ESSENTIAL to work with a professional who comes with a stellar reputation and then trust them.

Although I always focus on price as the main driver you cannot underestimate the presentation/staging of the home (something overlooked quite a bit in our market) and the willingness of the broker to show when needed.

Keith Burkhardt
The Burkhardt Group
(buy-side representation)

IMO, the top 2 skills a broker brings to the table is 1) ability to price and 2) ability to close.

Keith, thats another good point. For 6%, I would expect a broker to show a place whenever someone asks. That's what I did. Staging/presentation - dont need to be a rocket scientist, or even a broker, to realize this is important.... but oddly, brokers I had used in the past did not do much staging. I will never use a broker again. As for pricing - that isn't hard either. There is alot of data and let's face it, most people in general are smarter than most brokers. Some of the "market analysis" reports I have seen from brokers were a friggen joke. I think most brokers feel entitled to a 6% fee, or 3% fee, without expecting to have to do much work.

nyc10023: >> IMO, the top 2 skills a broker brings to the table is 1) ability to price and 2) ability to close. <<

BINGO

I would have been willing to pay a FEE to an agent to assist once offers started coming in... but not on % contingency. Charge me $300/hr for your time. And yes, thee is a good amount of hand holding through the contract stage... so an intermediary to be my speedbump could be worth paying for... but it's not worth $60k to me. Price your services fairly and watch how fast you are booked solid. And not on contingency.

fsbo88,
clearly competent organized and presistent.
minimum qualties that one would have to consider flying solo.

fsbo88: I heard you have accepted me and I will be right over.

I would say 'yes' you do need a broker if your are not as knowledgeable and confident as MrSuttonPlace. ^^

fsbo88 - very well said!! thx for sharing

fsbo88, what's the reason you wanna pay $300.hour to a broker?

all college interns I hired in the past can do what top brokers do, and they cost $10 ~ $20 per hour

No broker is necessary. I completed several 1-2M purchases and sales without a broker. Just hire an attorney and be willing to invest a little time for a couple of open houses. I have no idea why anyone would use a broker in Manhattan. The avg buyer/seller in Manhattan is much more saavy than the avg broker. In my experience they really offer nothing to the transaction other than a sorta host/hostess for open houses.

We need to make an accounting of all the threads that pertain to this topic and have a special SE home page " button that directs the user to an archive of this thread OR we can continue this thread.

Do you think it will rain? I think it will rain. You don't think so? You don't know jack about rain Do you think it will rain? I think it will rain. You don't think so? You don't know jack about rain. Do you think it will rain? I think it will rain. You don't think so? You don't know jack about rain Do you think it will rain? I think it will rain. You don't think so? You don't know jack about rain. .

Why use a broker to rent an apartment? InsideDigs.com takes the brokers out of the equation and connects renters to each other. I found my apartment there and the person who was moving out helped me find it.

so if people discussed the housing trend or stock market last year, we can no longer discuss those topics now? neither can we in the future?

caonima: >> fsbo88, what's the reason you wanna pay $300.hour to a broker? <<

I would have liked a seasoned pro available to consult on specific tasks. I pulled the $300/hr number out of my ass since I think that is a reasonable fee for a top professional with many years experience doing this. I pay my lawyer more than that for his advice (my lawyer only wishes he had 6% of my business). I could have used the equivalent of "me" in my business to consult for a few hours here and there, without expecting a $58,000 commission.

I find the entire real estate fee structure to be terribly offensive to those resourceful enough to do the work. Can you imagine what the airlines would have done if the National Association of Travel Agents (or whatever their trade association is/was called) was as effective at brainwashing the public there was NO WAY they would ever fly again if the public stopped using their services as the NAR has been? I need more than two hands to count the number of years since I last used a travel agent. I think 1998 was my last year with a TA on retainer. And then the TA started charging us $50 per ticket (when the sellers, er, airlines stopped paying them). And once the airlines made the ticketing really painless, and took all benefit of using a buyer's broker, er, travel agent, TA was done. The first person (company) to make FSBO consulting work on a large(r) scale will revolutionize the industry. And maybe properties that are sitting stale at 6-10% over market value will actually sell.

Maybe I will do this in my next life.

This was my 2nd fsbo. I'm sure there will be more...

>
We need to make an accounting of all the threads that pertain to this topic and have a special SE home page " button that directs the user to an archive of this thread OR we can continue this thread.

Like a button that says "Don't Shop for a Broker"?

unless there is a fundamental change in the real estate industry, I agree with Mr. Falco - this is just like talking about the weather...or who will win the Super Bowl. I suggest a new thread - what is better, a coop or a condo? What is the deal with square footage? Or perhaps, my all time favorite, buy vs. rent.

>What is the deal with square footage?

!

Cao Ni Ma- you must be completely ignorant and intellectually incapable of understanding the importance of brokers. They add expertise for the local market. They understand who the local buyers/sellers/players are within each market niche. Battery City submarket can be different from Tribeca, which can be different from Turtle Bay or Upper Wes Side. The reasons brokers are needed are also they add as a buffer between the seller and the buyer. The seller may not have the time to prep an apt, haggle on negotiation prices, or coordinate between the different buyer options out there (if they are lucky). Going to the question above, is it work the 50-100k in commission? For me, it is worth it because of what i do as a living.

Cao Ni Ma Before you go around insulting everyone with your poor understanding of English (and look at what the word Cao Ni Ma means in Chinese you idiot), just try to act a little educated and quit embarassing yourself. Go back to your craigslis you bum...

caonima - What college interns are you working with? I'd love to know how your expertise and successful your career in RE has been. You sound like a real big shot in NYC real estate to be hiring college interns...

Wow, what temperment for an old timer!

Rock it, oldtimer!

I can give myself a pedicure but it's easier when I pay a manicurist to do it.

oldtimer21, you made our day.

"intellectually incapable of understanding the importance of brokers"??? hahaha, don't you really know how dump you brokers are? that's the biggest joke in streeteasy history i bet.

but one thing you are right about, any people on craigslist is indeed a better human being than you are. are you trying to tell people that brokers are all trash like yourself? well, you successfully did it

caonima is an alter ego of another useless poster impersonating an ethnic minority.
The purpose is to inflame others but it brings NOTHING to the chat board as does the useless poster.

>caonima is an alter ego of another useless poster impersonating an ethnic minority.
The purpose is to inflame others but it brings NOTHING to the chat board as does the useless poster.

Who is your guess?

Brokers can save you time, but the pricing structure of their fees is definitely a scam. The prices are fixed, and arbitrarily tied to the value of the sale. A more honest way of doing business would be to allow price competition in terms of broker fees, and to charge by the hour for services rendered.

You could hire someone to "stage" your house for a few hundred dollars. Ditto on hosting an open house. Ditto on the multitude of administrative duties that comprise the day-to day of brokers work. In many cases, it is cheaper and safer to hire an attorney to handle the complexities of the transaction. As a buyer, I have found the broker an impediment to my search and the negation.

The way it is set up now, the RE brokerage industry is a leech on the buyer, the seller, and the economy. It is a frankly anti-capitalist way to do business, in need of a major disruption.

A trained monkey can do the work of a broker. As I said, I would hire one to sell my apartment because I don't want to do the work myself. Doesn't change the fact that a trained monkey can do it. I suspect the average reader of streeteasy and curbed knows more about RE than half the brokers out there.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/27902-good-wine-stores

columbiacounty, that's a helpful thread you linked to. What's the relevance here?

What about from the point of view of the BUYER? Does a buyer need to work with one broker? What is the advantage? I just started with one, who did provide some good pricing intelligence on previous sales in the building, other comps. But couldn't I get this from the seller's broker anyway? My broker calls himself a "buyer's broker", but does such a thing actually exist?

I cannot resist diving in - my wife and I have been looking for a "pied a terre" for over 3 years (no rush for a part time residence) - first in Park Slope, now in UWS / West Chelsea. Have never used a "buyer' s broker". Anyway, we are still looking. Repeatedly, we seem to be marginalized by all concerned. When it comes down to bidding / negotiating - we are essentially ignored despite what I feel are reasonable bids (I follow comps on SE for that building on SE - usually start at or about 7-10% below ask, all cash offer, excellent financials) and negotiations never seem to get started in earnest. We have NEVER been offered a "discount" relative to the 2-3% that would go to a buyer's broker. So, in our case, it would seem that a broker might be helpful. Problem is - I have a profound systemic allergy to brokers and the like.

Why don't you use Keith? You'll get a 2% discount without any awkwardness, and his acting as an intermediary will help your bids from being marginalized.

Separately, on your bidding, are you putting tight timelines? It sounds like your bid is being shopped around.

N0t sure how yet inododo can conclude that your bids are being shopped around any more than the listing simply remaining outstanding. Maybe they are, but certainly need some questions answered first:

You've told us that you've been searching for 3 years and usually start 7-10% below ask. Surely in the 3 years you've seen some of these places close, so where do they close relative to your bid and the ask? How long do the properties remain on the market after your offer?

Give us some more information then maybe we can reach a better conclusion.

sjtmd: the mistake you may be making is that you are bidding based on a discount from ask. Your bid should be based on comps (not listings) and justification for your bid (example: -1% for all cash). if the apartment is priced correctly, your -7% offer could be too low. If the apartment is not priced correctly, your offer may still be be too high for the fantasyland the seller's broker may have painted. Did you track any of the properties that you have been making offers over the past 3 years? Did any go to contract yet? Did any close? If they closed above your offer, your offer was not good enough. No other possible explanation.

When making an offer, use a straightforward deal memo. In your offer, include a summary of your financials and be clear you are offering a no financing contingency. No need to beat up the seller on why you are lowballing, except make it clear your offer is NOT a lowball -- it is based on research and the recent selling price of a true comp. Put a time-bomb in the offer -- and if you are truly offering the real-time market price (with a 1% discount for cash), your offer must be taken seriously. Hopefully, you are not lowballing just to lowball?

The seller will get wise if they are receiving offers 7-10% under ask and have to do something (unless they live in fantasyland with their broker). But in some cases, the seller will never see an offer, and I'd rather have a guy like you (head on straight, honest offer) make a fair offer than not receive anything.

The 2-3% buyers broker commission (discount) is irrelevant. It's not your problem. The seller could try to negotiate with the listing broker so that max commission paid is 3% if buyer comes in without representation. At one point, I brought this up with my broker (before I moved on to fsbo) -- "if we drop the price further and a buyer comes in without representation, can you make the commission 3%?" - and the answer was a resounding, "no - please don't insult me". So by bringing this up in your offer, you will piss off the listing broker -- we will hope the seller is smart enough to negotiate these things.

Can you share any listings that you made offers on? Interested to track the brokers (and sellers) living in fantasyland... (this is why streeteasy is a such a useful site!)

Remember, only the customers can set the price of an item in a true balanced market. You are in no hurry to buy (3+ years "looking" - and some sellers are in no hurry to sell). Until a seller wants to sell this week and accept today's market price, there will not be a transaction.

I do not think your situation is a conspiracy by brokers... I think when you make a fair offer (the market price, less 1% for all cash) you will have your apartment.

I have followed all of these sales on SE - kept in my "Sales Folder". In general, they are marked"in contract" within 12 weeks of our bid. The closing price is usually a little higher than our bid (5-10K).

sjtmd, welcome to the world of an industry that colludes to protect itself. I FSBO'd and believe me there are nyc brokerages that will not deal with FSBOs - I call it long term protection of the 6%. I am not sure why a selling broker would not LOVE to deal with you though, as they get to keep the full juicy 6% commission. Maybe you just seem like you are not seriuos, or maybe you are lowballing.

Anyway, is a buyer's broker needed? No. But, I would say the only value add here is for negotiating. If you are lucky or good enough to find a good broker, good luck with that, that will actually do some work and negotiated you a good deal.

>The closing price is usually a little higher than our bid (5-10K).

What's that in % terms?

Bought 3x without a buyer's broker. I think that's your answer, stjmd. You were probably a little lower than competing offers.

nyc10023 Imagine at closing you received a check for 2% of the buy-side commission? Let's say you paid $1.920m (on a place you thought would close at $2.1M (; ) like a recent client of mine, that's $38,592 for you. Not bad. Maybe you even squeezed some value out of my 23 years in this business or 18 closed deals in 2011? You don't need a broker, but we are not all the same. See my blog for details on how I work.

Keith, this was years ago. Not knocking your business model.

The last 2x, we had a buyer's broker bcs and this is where I depart from everyone else on SE, I like spreading the money around in our local economy.

I know you're not...Now buy another place and call me! lol.

"The last 2x, we had a buyer's broker bcs and this is where I depart from everyone else on SE, I like spreading the money around in our local economy."

I like spreading the money around too, but it's a question of whether you support the underlying business model.

On some other thread, I estimated that the average amount brokered by an agent at a top firm like PDE is $4M. That works out to be 3 average-priced Manhattan apts, for an income around $60K. Presumably it is less at lesser firms, an that average is skewed with a median well less than $60K.

Far be it from me to begrudge an industry where the average income at a top firm in the country's top market is $60K. But I question the inefficiency of a system that spends 2000 hours a year (assuming an average 40-hour week) to broker one side of 3 apt. Think about it: 1300 hours of brokering per apt. It is a silly waste of human capital.

Personally, I'd rather see an industry where brokers at top firms average double: $120K by brokering 12 apt for $10K rather than $60K by brokering 3 apt for $20K. So going with Keith is a better way to spread the money around, as it helps increase our local economy's productivity.

My take is that you do need a seller's broker to do all the work related to showing the apartment. Apartment for many people is a highly emotional purchase (I am not one of them). Good brokers know how to market to these emotions and most importanly stage the apartment including minor improvement suggestions. However, I do not think it is worth 6% - probably worth 3%+ marketing expenses with seller's broker keeping more than buyer's.

nada, Interesting comment on average broker not making much money. The biggest reason for low pay is a lack of min qualifications and many people not really doing it full-time. Many young female brokers or rather broker's assistant use it as an opportunity to meet single men who can afford to buy an apartment.

I never liked the underlying biz model on the buy side for most price ranges and I will give serious consideration to using a broker with Keith's model in the future. But given that rebates haven't happened in the past, I don't view it as a moral evil to give the buy-side to brokers I like.

As for whether the seller's broker is worth 6%, I think it depends on the market segment. For anything other than ultra-luxe, nope I don't think it's worth it, but I also think it's more than this trained monkey can do.

If you ask a broker the answer is Yes. Ironically, some years ago I did a FOR SALE BY OWNER, but before the sale went through I was on the receiving end of dozens of broker calls. I asked one of those brokers who called why they didn't respect to the brokers should not call request, and he said, if I signed with him he'd make sure I didn't receive those annoying calls. Anyway despite those annoying calls, I realized a higher net price by bypassing the broker network.

>On some other thread, I estimated that the average amount brokered by an agent at a top firm like PDE is $4M. That works out to be 3 average-priced Manhattan apts, for an income around $60K. Presumably it is less at lesser firms, an that average is skewed with a median well less than $60K.
Far be it from me to begrudge an industry where the average income at a top firm in the country's top market is $60K. But I question the inefficiency of a system that spends 2000 hours a year (assuming an average 40-hour week) to broker one side of 3 apt. Think about it: 1300 hours of brokering per apt. It is a silly waste of human capital.

If a broker is doing $4MM, whether that's 4 apartments per year or 6 apartments per year - 2K hours / year or 40hrs / week seems like excessive time spent.

That assumes that many brokers are actually working full-time rather than becoming brokers as they do not want a job which requires certain number of hours per week at your desk.

well said downtown1234.

based on the 2 brokers' behavior in this thread, they are good at personal remarks, but definitely not good for any business. maybe they could become good bouncers at a nightclub or something.

What are the best fsbo websites?

dg156: >> What are the best fsbo websites? <<

You're on one of them. Join (pay the $) to get access to the entire database.
YOU have to become an expert in many disciplines.
Hire Gotham Photo to help you stage a photograph.
Google "floorplan guy"
If you don't have design skills -- go to Lynda.com and learn some skills.
Assuming you can negotiate -- but read every bit of info you can on buying and selling.
Do you have a real estate lawyer? Before you do anything, retain one, and pay him for a consult. There are things you need to know before you do it. I'd suggest finding a lawyer who has done more than a few fsbos.
Talk to KeithB. Talk to RealDirect.
Use google.
Have we talked about pricing? If I were to rank the skills needed for a successful FSBO, I'd say pricing and hitting the exact market price is worth 90%, closing the deal is worth 9%, and all the other skills combined are worth 1%.
You can FSBO your manhattan apartment in 14 days or less if you do everything right. So do everything right.

Being a broker is sooooooooo easy. They make tons of money and don't do shit.

So why are all of you keeping your day job? Get your broker's lic., quit the day job. hang out a shingle and partake in the good life. Easy hours, lots of vacation, plesent reasonible clients, properties that sell themselves....we should all do this job.
The reason we don't is because the job is a nightmare. Asshole sellers, shithead know it all buyers, blah blah blah. Have any of you ever been to an open house and listened the absolut bullshit that people say. Got any idea how hard it is to listen to selfimpotant ignoramous without rolling your eyes? It takes zen like ability to remain poised in the presence of Manhattan re shoppers. Back in the day when falco was little falco and shopped for properties, little falco said some pretty dumb shit and the lion's share of brokers tolerated my idiocy. When calculating what brokers make don't forget that most brokers are kicking the comish up the line. Don't forget the hundreads of hours they sit w/o a bite. When we see crazy prices posted on SE we have no idea what the back story is that created the crazy price. When there are times of plenty you can dictate to your clients...when time are lean you have to deal with what you've got.
Most people are about as qualified to sell their re as they are at treating themselves for health care issues. So I guess if you can brush your teeth that qualifies you as a dentist. It reminds me of people that eat at resturants think they could run them so much better. A few could but a very small %.
Selling without a broker is great for the UBER-diityourselfer...if that's not you GIVE IT UP.