Bonus Withdrawal Puts Bankers in “Malaise”

“Could you imagine what it’s like to say I got three kids in private school, I have to think about pulling them out? How do you do that?” Let's try:

"To Whom It May Concern,

I regret to inform you that my son/daughter will no longer be attending Fortykperyear Academy during the next school year. It was your tuition or my summer house and, well, a man has to have priorities."

It just means time to open the vault, buyers, because there should be some good properties abound.

This is the historical impact on NYC privates:

Sought after schools have lowered demand, but still more applicants than spots. Less desired schools go bust. People will cut everything before tuition- if they are already paying.

It doesn't sound like they are going bankrupt, just having to choose what's important and cutting back on extras. It could lead to lower volumes, but the pressure on price is minimal, as no-one HAS to sell their pads. Same as before: low hiss rather than blow-out.

And the douchebag of the day award goes to Andrew, who although he's in the top 1% doesnt feel rich enough: “I’m crammed into 1,200 square feet. I don’t have a dishwasher. We do all our dishes by hand.”
whaa whaa whaa. Andrew, you are why they hate us.

> “I’m crammed into 1,200 square feet. I don’t have a dishwasher. We do all our dishes by hand.”

wow, this guy really picked the wrong location to live in. no dishwasher being in the top 1%? he made a lousy RE decision, the brownstone owner should have installed one. come on! even RV come with dishwashers nowadays.

> "Schiff, the New York-based marketing director for Euro Pacific Capital, where his brother is CEO."

well, sounds to me this guy has a job thanks to his brother. should a marketing director be in the top 1%? it's not brain surgery what they do.

He should never have gone on record. But now that he has, his complaints are silly. I know a little about the Bk market. If $ is an issue, there are plenty of places in Bk you can live very comfortably, with space, owning. Once you have taken school zoning out of it. You don't need to live right next to the school.

If He listened to his brother, he'd be renting!

Double checked, Poly prep is in Bay Ridge. Plenty of 3 story THs for under 1mm. Also, Ditmas isn't far away.

Well, grandpaw Schiff is a well-known tax protester, serving time for tax evasion.

> Double checked, Poly prep is in Bay Ridge. Plenty of 3 story THs for under 1mm. Also, Ditmas isn't far away.

aren't there good public schools in the area? i get it that part of going the private root is to filter the peer group. but unless public schools are a failure, it's discretionary consumption.

Public schools in NYC demand the patience of a saint. Hopefully, one gets into one's zoned school. Apply for middle, apply for HS. It ain't simple. Yes, there are thousands of immigrant striver kids who test into a specialized HS. But absent exigent circumstances, not sure my kids have that kind of striver ambition. I am far more critical of Schiff's housing choice.

I just don't understand why people don't send their kids to public schools, spend say $10,000 a year on tutors, SAT prep classes, college entrance coaches, etc - and pocket the extra $22,000.

> I just don't understand why people don't send their kids to public schools, spend say $10,000 a year on tutors, SAT prep classes, college entrance coaches, etc - and pocket the extra $22,000.

EXACTLY! and save the annual tuition on an account, on the name of the kid. who is going to be happier at the end?

How many times do I have to explain this (and my kids go to public)?

You are gambling that they will get into a good middle and good public HS. By sending them to a top K-12 school (Poly is one), you are buying insurance.

people who are buying in marginal, if that, school districts are either not thinking about their children or decided that "private school it is"

so nobody is thinking that charters are an option?

It seems expats in Manhattan aren't nearly as fearful of public schools, income etc. being equal: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/nyregion/foreign-parents-in-new-york-prefer-public-schools.html

Lots of good quotes in the article about them not needing/wanting their kids' butts kissed at $40K a pop.

well, guess nyc10023 that many around me have exceptionally talented kids, so are not bound by the zone. when kids that can get into the selective unzoned ones they free their parents when it comes to real estate location. it's a great achievement, but not all are in that position.

Notadmin: depends on the charter in your nabe. Many charters are set up to help a high-needs population, which means a VERY long school day. 7:30 to 4:30 in not unheard. In addition (though of course Moskowitz is working hard to change this), there are few (maybe no) charters that have their own building. They all share, which leads to other issues. Also, most charters are non-union and have a high turnover (depends on you feel about this politically).

NWT: that was not a well-researched or thoughtful article. Many expats do private for the simple reason that they will be GONE in a few years, few have the intention of applying for U.S. colleges. I've made this argument myself to more than a few expat families - why spend $40k when your kid is not going there for more than 2-3 years.

Finally, stuffing your kids' schedule with extra-curriculars is not the answer to an underfunded, mismanaged public school system that has a huge majority demographic that is opposite from the average NYT, SE reader. There are some kids who would benefit from having gym every day or a more challenging curriculum than is currently provided by a neighborhood NYC public school

Notadmin: you have to be careful what is cause and what is effect. Of course, if you live in a zone without a good zoned school, what families you find there tend to be the ones with the options (i.e. tested into a great selective PS, etc.).

> Many charters are set up to help a high-needs population, which means a VERY long school day. 7:30 to 4:30 in not unheard.

true, i dislike that too. i much rather have the kiddo for less time at school and homework at home.

> In addition (though of course Moskowitz is working hard to change this), there are few (maybe no) charters that have their own building. They all share, which leads to other issues.

i know. went to one of the meetings of our school board. the unionized teachers were much more interest in preserving the "real estate" of their school so that they could avoid sharing unused space than addressing their failure when it comes to teaching math basics, for example. talk about priorities!

> Also, most charters are non-union and have a high turnover (depends on you feel about this politically).

i'm all for non-unionize teachers, that way merits counts and it's not all about seniority.

the parents around us that made efforts succeeded getting their kids into great schools, i'd be happy if my kid attends any of them. others just don't care and sign up for the local zoned, many of them might not even know how low this local school scores in math, for example. if they know, it's tough to understand how they tolerate such low scores.

i don't see the process as "impossible" and hence one has to go private. it's basically time consuming, which double-income couples might not be able to deal with. but there's tons of info available at our finger tips thanks to internet nowadays. a lot of the process becomes friendlier thanks to that. it's a huge change, an pretty recent too. we all have access to DOE stats only from 2007 on!

before internet, a ton of info was word of mouth, and seemed more arbitrary than it is nowadays.

Notadmin: I'm not going to win the charter v. public zoned with you in one day on a forum.

But, please look into:
1) How the real estate needs are actually figured out - it's not right to squeeze an existing school out of existence by slicing and dicing. It isn't correct to say that teachers are prioritizing turf over teaching - how can you teach when you no longer have a room to teach in or a place to counsel troubled students.
2) The sweet spot according to everything I've read to gain mastery as a teacher is 5 years out. Most teachers at charters in NYC don't last that long. I'm not a fan of the teachers' union either, but that doesn't speak well to burnout and high attrition rate at charters.
3) NYC public schools with a few notable exceptions (all selective schools) teach the EM curriculum. That is a failure, not necessarily the teaching staff - none of whom grew up with Everyday Math.

Notadmin: almost everyone around us has their kid take the G&T test and Hunter test. Please don't say they don't care. The information may be at your fingertips, but doesn't get your kid in. It's friendly only from the point of signing up to take the test and getting the results. The process isn't impossible but only a very small fraction of kids get into a G&T or citywide school. Again, it's a very self-selecting sample that can stay in the city past 6th grade and into HS.

Wow! Interesting stuff! As a new Dad, I have a lot to learn about getting my son into a good school when that time comes. When should I start preparing? Looking, etc?

1) Preschool applications start the fall of the year before your child goes.

2) Make sure that you're zoned for a good PS. Registration ends beginning of March for the year you want to go - you can push it as late as signing a lease in February.

3) Do G&T testing, Hunter, ERB (may not be the same year depending on b-day). Practice tests are widely available - may be of help depending on how coachable your child is.

4) See how the cookie crumbles. I would take Hunter over a K-12 citywide over a K-8 G&T over a K-5 G&T. The last, you may want to tour and compare v. your local zoned school.

5) If you have another child and your 1st child is in your public zoned school, get them both retested every year for G&T.

6) If your child's ERB scores are good, apply to a handful of privates - maybe you'll swing that way and cut back in some other area.

7) Relax! They'll blame you for something, no matter what.

Thank you

> Notadmin: almost everyone around us has their kid take the G&T test and Hunter test.

not all selective schools require testing. like you say, it's indeed self-selecting. the whole process of going for the non-zoned one is. which doesn't improve the pool at the zoned one one bit.

> "it's a very self-selecting sample that can stay in the city past 6th grade and into HS."

there are less spots in great schools for HS than for elementary school!? sure, we are not providing universal formulas for educational fulfillment nor solving the public school system. it is what it is.

Brooks2 - i would recommend that you start obsessing and learning now so that when the time comes in a couple of years you can tackle it all while exhaling a bit. start absorbing...

it also helps to know your long-term plans (A, B, and C), if that's at all possible...

"so nobody is thinking that charters are an option?"
only one Data point but a friend moved her child to a Charter School from 'one of those 30K Brooklyn private programs" and the child said she was board and unchallenged. By Oct they were out of public Charter and back in "30K private."

I will piggyback on NYC10023 advice as I agree it is all good stuff. Consider 'investing' in a good three's and fours pre-K school. Our 2nd child got 99% on G&T (she's smart, but I am not foolin myself she ain't THAT smart!) I am certain that three years at a top notch montessori program added a good 20-30 points to the score. Another Card stacked against you getting into a G&T program is that a lot of parents actually PREPARE their children for the G&T test. In a way we did but all I thought was that my kids loved this little school and still rave about how great it was.

Finally pray, young parent(s), that your child does not have special needs and/or require an IEP. THAT is a whole different (and unpleasant) world. If however s/he does need that extra help - get it and also consider a good lawyer. But do stay in NYC as I hear that services are actually better in the city than in the suburbs. Go figure.

Forgot the Catholic system (the schools that are still tied to the Diocese).

There are quite a few throughout NYC - I hear that they are still beloved and dominant in SI & Bx.

In Manhattan, there are many more than you think, but many of the smaller ones are in imminent danger of closing as the population they traditionally serve shrink in size. They have to figure out how to position themselves for the next century. Raise prices (very low, btw) to attract a more middle-class parent body, and they price themselves out for the population they have always served. The three I hear the most about are Saint Ignatius, Blessed Sacrament and Epiphany (all PK-8).

2 storied all-boys 9-12 institutions (there may be more) - Fordham Prep at 15k/year and St. Regis, which is free.

Foo: which Montessori?

"Consider 'investing' in a good three's and fours pre-K school. Our 2nd child got 99% on G&T (she's smart, but I am not foolin myself she ain't THAT smart!) I am certain that three years at a top notch montessori program added a good 20-30 points to the score."

i think this really depends on what the alternative is (i.e. who your child is spending time with and how that time is spent). As a parent, you can invest in some very basic toys, partake in regular outings, etc and with time and effort, teach a preschooler A LOT!

Don't get me started on the EDUCATION bubble......

premature withdrawal is never gonna make anyone happy.......

nyc10023 Rivendell (small inclusion program- remember comments on IEP). That program ends at K and now we are at BHMS and Mary McDowell and live in in PS 321 zone! Who knew over a decade ago that we'd never set foot in that place. Of course we can't afford school and that 'brownstone' so we rent hence the 'tradeoff' mentioned in an ealier thread.

uwsmom - as an infant/toddler my older sibling started playing with kids now in Poly, Packer, Berkely Carroll, PS 107 and 321 - all fine programs. Alas, the older child has a Learning Disability so my focus early on was getting 'us' on the right track & since we hit the ball out of the park with a great inclusive pre-school, why not invest in offering the younger 'typically' developing child that same program - it has had and will have life-long impact. We will always consider the first school (Rivendell) a worthwhile investment - in fact that place really saved us.

ok.. again.. i am a novice.. so what age do they start Pre School? I think I started Pre-School at 4(but that was a looong time again and I know things have changed).

What are the Hunter, ERB and G&T testing?

Brooks2-
some programs start as early as 2 but I'd say 3-4 is still a pretty common entry point. Public Schools offer Pre-K for the year that a child turns 4. K starts the year that the child turns 5. Public K must be offered, public pre-K is on availability basis - I hear most that apply get a spot offered. Zoned school should have spot for K child (but must have spot for 1st grader).

ERB - IQ/"evaluation" test for kids. Many independent schools require it for K entrance. Costs a few hundred bucks - around 500 at this point. ERB = Educational Records Bureau - they keep 'stats' on where child is relative to peers of the same age.

G&T - Gifted and Talented - also an IQ test but administered 'free' by Board of Ed and test result alone is used to determine who is offered the opportunity to attend a special G&T school or a G&T class within public schools. G&T used to require interviews but now it is (supposed to be) a pure numbers games.

Hunter - Hunter is another 'test/evaluation tool' for entrance to one of the "elite" public programs and as I understand it the K-8 program is for Manhattan residents only but HS is different. perhaps someone else can answer this one.

thanks again!

1 more Questions. How are Public Schools in Manhattan? From what I am reading here(on this site), some are saying they are not so good. I went to PS in the burbs and got a great education(ie accepted to the most difficult schools in the Country). And, I am glad I went to a PS.