80 Metropolitan

Rivas77, I negotiated a bit off price plus 80% off the closing costs. I'm sure new buyers can do better than that. In regards to the amenities I think the only extravagance is the pool (but only because of the life guard thing). The rest I think is great, like the gym, which is not the only one around. As far as doorman, there is one doorman which of course changes as shifts change, a resident manager and people who take care of the building. Seems kind of normal too me. We'll see where it is at one year from now.

I was concerned about the trucks idling outside 100 Met. I've been past there even late at night and they're there.. I guess for the chinese food distributor.

Interesting Lofty. Some people are oblivious to noise, but if you here it, a truck on a street at night kind of stands out, more than during the day when general hub bub covers things up sort of. I'll look at where that place is.

I thought the heater fan was quieter than at 70 berry, by the way....

Holy crap. I was surprised by some truck noise on my last visit to the unit I'm negotiating on (which is on the Metropolitan side) but I just dismissed it as a fluke...I was really irritated that the windows didn't do a better job of dampening sound, but figured since Metropolitan dead ends a block away, it was random.

Trucks around the clock servicing the building next door is a huge problem. OMG.

Lofty, re: 70 Berry, location and space is great, but I'm skeptical of the heating/cooling set up. A friend in new construction in Harlem has it, and he says his apartment's really cold, and he can't really crank it up enough to get his place toasty to his liking.

Politikat -- could you elaborate on the 70 heating/cooling issue?...HOw does it differ from 80 Met (which I found to be quieter). Obviously, on a visit, it's hard to get a feel for how they actually heat/cool.

Are there no zoning laws that prohibit commercial deliveries at certain hours?....

politikat, you're making it sound like the building is right on the BQE. Whenever I'm outside walking my dog, I don't see convoys of trucks passing the building. I tend to think that the trucks on your last visit were a fluke. In my opinion, other than regular car traffic, it's pretty quiet.

I think 80 Met is zoned MX M1-2/R6A, which means mixed use. It allows more noise than a strictly residential zone. I looked at renting a loft in 100 Met, which is a commercial building - and discussed the trucks with the landlord.

newbrooklyn, I think 80 Met is the best development in Williamsburg. But the whole premise of the building is quiet apartments.

Its not on the BQE. But if I'm paying above market (albeit off the peak) I want what they promise to deliver. Noise from a truck every week or so is fine, once a day is borderline, three or four times a day is a deal killer for me. Unfortunately, no way to know for sure until its too late.

I was surprised by the noise since when I've walked in the street its always seemed very quiet, almost deserted, which is to my taste.

Which side of the building are you on? I'd switch to the south side of the building if its pindrop quiet.

Didn't mean to spook you - I am a fanatic for quiet. Always prefer the back of the building, mid-block. But I found it invaluable to walk past buildings I'm interested in at different times of day and night.

Politikat,
I'm in an interior-facing apt so I don't hear anything.
I'd do as LoftyDreams suggested and come back on different days and times to see how you feel about the noise.
If you're at home only in the morning and night then come then. If you're home all day then come when noose would bother you the most.
I hope things work out for you!

I was there yesterday night for the first time. Despite a couple of snow track it was pretty quite. (face Metropolitan) But then again it was a Saturday night. I'll see during the week even though from what I had seen before. I don't think there's a continuous flow of traffic in that block. I guess I'll find out soon. The south of the building otherwise should be quite but I'm not crazy about looking at those townhouses, unless it's a 4th floor up and then you look above.

I was scratching my head on why asking prices are still at bubble levels when most have slashed theirs and are implicitly open to any offers below ask. Then, I remembered a while back 80 Met was one of those buildings that offered a price guarantee for units in the same line. Partially explains the parking spots/cabanas/2yrs cc & taxes/closing costs used to prop up closing prices.

Anyone have more color on what the status/deadline is on people who haven't closed? Maybe we will have to wait until the last of the price guaranteed have closed or walked away for more realistic asks to develop.

Freewilly -- has anyone seriously actually walked away from their deposit. It just seems unlikely to me, given human nature (it would be a big ouch), inability of some to put down deposit someplace else, and, most importantly, that the magnitude of discounts on recent sales aren't, as i understand it, whoppingly in excess of the deposits people have put up....which means walking away implies more of a view that the market will go further down (a perfectly understandable market view, but walking away from a deposit based on a forecast of future prices is different from walking away due to current discounts offered to new owners). The matter would be entirely different if all-in new buyers were getting 30% percent off original list,but I think they are getting nowhere near that, at least that was the impression the sales office gave me.

jimstreeteasy - "but walking away from a deposit based on a forecast of future prices is different from walking away due to current discounts offered to new owners"

I agree. That's kinda what I meant - is 80 Met holding out on revealing what they will really accept after this round of closings because to do so would scare away/violate price protection for the contract holders they need to keep to build percentage?

Also, disregarding discussion of future price declines, based on current prices the contract holders have more choice now that near bedford offerings like 125 north 10th (a building of comparable quality) and the Allan Building are asking in the $625 psf range vs 80 Met's $700 psf post concession price.

But I agree with you on the psychology of walking away. Sometimes it's hard for people to hold emotions at bay in an equanimitous manner and stick to the numbers. Meditation helps.

The amenity issue makes 80 not comparable to 70 berry in terms of monthlies.

Too lazy to do the numbers rightnow but....if I were looking at 80 met I would say to myself : I am paying the contract price (whatever that is) minus the full value of the abatement (simply add up the abatement for the entire time it lasts, and assume that is the "value" of it which is roughly right if you assume taxes keep pace with inflation). Divide by sf and this is your ppsf.

Then tell yourself you are each month paying the FULL unabated taxes plus common charges...and wonder if that seems worth it to you.

My premise is that the abatement is basically prepaid taxes paid for by the buyer.

I don't quite get your point. All the buildings mentioned have tax abatements.

Yeah, I didn't make my point clear. I geuss what I am saying is that for any tax abatement building I believe in looking at the monthlies as if you were paying the unabated tax (and account for the abatement by looking at the purchase price as partly consisting of prepaid taxes).

When you do this you get a better feel for how the high common charges plus taxes make it expensive to be in an amenity building . I think the abatement sort of makes it easier to "forgive" for the time being the higher common charges. As some have noted on here, there are kind of mental thresholds above which the total (unabated) monthlies start to seem harsh and offputting. Not saying 80 met is egregious...but..to me it is a factor, a big factor really, and I fear that monthly cc can be hard to control over time.

Yes, high monthly CC's is a concern. The risk of increases can be quite real especially if they continue to sell at this pace. Another reason for contract holders to take pause.

What's left of the market demand for Williamsburg has shifted from bull market luxury developments with all the bells and whistles to no frills, decent-high quality buildings at an affordable price point with low CC's. For those remaining that are still in denial that times have changed, The Edge/NSP/80 Met will gladly take your deposit. The nimble 7X Berry Brothers are exploiting the sweet spot for now of $625 psf. But I suspect that pool of buyers may be limited in size as well.

What has prompted my revisitation of Williamsburg is the news that 125N.10th has gotten the memo and is grudgingly lowering prices toward $625 psf. This is a luxury building of very high quality that is ideally situated near the park and the bedford stop. If they are dropping prices, what does that imply for lesser buildings in the area? Hmm... Berry Brothers, enjoy the party while you can...

I don't know who you refer to as Berry Brothers. But I think I understand your point - when I saw the developer of 70 berry I said to him, "the policy at nsp and the edge and 80 met to maintain high prices is a gift to you which is allowing you to sell out at 69 berry and probably 70 berry , at a higher price than you could if those buildings were pricing so as to sell at a faster pace". How long this will last, Idon't know.

125 is a nice building but personally I don't care for the zen garden or whatever they talked about. And lots of units are interior and face each other across the courtyard which is a bummer, and not nearly as interesting, if you have to stare at something at close proximity, as looking over at some rough brick warehousy thing...not to mention the tedious privacy invasion every night.

Common charges at 125 n 10th are similar to 80 met, location better, but in my opinion not quite as nice. I think the units near 650 psf are probably the less desireable ones--ph's near 900psf
As freewilly states above, current appetite has shifted towards value/few ammenities. In my opionion one should buy in a place that suits their needs rather than obsess over resale, as when you go to resll, the pendulum may have swung back to value ammenity heavy bldgs as it did the past few years.

That 900/sf calculation for the ph's doesn't include outdoor space, right? I thought the formula was to count 1/2 the outdoor space in the calculation?

The high amenity thing isn't just about resale or strategizing about what will do better in the market. It's that when the total taxes plus cc get pretty high, you feel like you're paying rent almost, and it's forever. I know a retired lady paying over 2000 per month in her apartment, and it grates on her when she's traveling for two months to mexico.

Agree Jim, but you get what you pay for. If a doorman, fitness room etc provide value to you, then you will pay for them.

Starting off 2010 with indicative price movement from 80 Met, a 2-bedroom with N/W Empire State views:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/140342-condo-80-metropolitan-avenue-williamsburg-brooklyn

StreetEasy History

10/23/2007 Listed by Halstead Property at $825,000.
05/03/2008 Delisted temporarily.
05/12/2008 Price decreased by 4% to $789,000.
05/22/2008 Re-listed by Halstead Property.
07/08/2008 Listing sold.
01/16/2009 Later Listed by Halstead Property at $825,000.
12/11/2009 Halstead Property Listing entered contract. Last priced at $699,000.
12/18/2009 Sale recorded for $689,000.

Down 16.5% from original ask, selling at $670 psf. Don't know if they nego'ed closing costs and 2 yrs cc/taxes, but if they did, the effective psf is at $620 psf assuming 4% closing costs.

Happy New Years!!

So,,if you assume some extras worth about 4%...then this sold at say 20% off peak ask pricing (presumably this premier building was priced at what they considered peak wmburg pricing at the time they started), so not a sign that wmburg faring worse than manhattan, despite presumably much higher new unsold product as a percent of existing housing stock

That's one way to look at it. But it would still be apples to oranges in a way because of the lack of resale comps for WB as we are still in a period of price discovery since product is new (developers can ask anything, and many would argue asks are meaningless for true analysis). So the only indicative measure is the trend of ppsf deals are getting done at. Personally, I think with some quality buildings in choice locations breaking the 650 barrier, we will see sub-600 at some point not far off for prime WB.

also. and im apparently the only one who thinks like this, as another reference point i would simply add up the value of the abatement over the years, and subtract that from the price to see ppsf...(my theory being that youre prepaying taxes when you buy in an abated building)

free...what have u decided to do?...when do you and others need to decide?

jim how are you prepaying taxes when you buy in an abated building? Do you mean that the sale price accounts for that?

jim - I'm not in contract, but I'd like to know the answer too.

jj1918:

My view is that

- the abatement constitutes the certain abatement (removal) of a certain liability stream attached to owning (there will always be real estate taxes)
- it is reasonable to assume that the abated taxes will keep pace with inflation, so you can present value the abated liability by simply adding up the amount of the abatement over the years using the amount of hypothetical tax currently owed (i.e., you discount the future inflated taxes back to the present using the inflation rate; there is no need to use a higher discount rate accounting for risk because the liability is certain)
- because the abatement has a certain value (determined per the above) you are in effect buying that when you buy the apartment, and logically you are paying full value for that certain abatement which has the economic effect of prepaying the abated taxes
- if taxes turn out to exceed inflation then the benefit of the abatement is greater than expected; in the unlikely case that taxes don't keep pace with inflation then this analysis overstates the value of the abatement (that seems a very unlikely scenario given nyc finances outlook)
- by following this methodology you can equate apples with apples, that is compare the adjusted ppsf of different buildings that have different length abatements or no abatements

I highly doubt that apt has ESB views from the 2nd floor. They had been playing around with the pricing of that unit for a while and adding and subtracting a rooftop space which by itself was priced at around 90k. It had been listed at $689k for some time and still took a while to sell. There are many apts the sponsor has not released (about 50% of the bldg) and I think they're trying to figure out how to price them once all of the suckers, I mean current contract holders close.

It was listed at 699k actually. Anyway, all the units are on sale, even if not listed, so for new buyers it shouldn't be much of a problem to negotiate 10-15% less than asking IMHO.

kiz, I think you can get a partial view from an extreme angle looking west, but yeah, you'd have to be a sucker to close now above $600 psf.

so if they closed at 689 from 699k ask, thats less than 2% off, maybe they through in extras with that? 15% of the 699k price would put you <600psf which i think for this bldg would be a nice deal as we stand today

Asking prices are very unreliable these days. As JFK would probably say, "don't ask what the asks are, ask what you can ask of the asses."

I saw a couple of units there today - they've come out very nicely. Good quality, nice finishes. And they appear to be flexible on pricing - at least 5-10% below "non reduced" prices - the guy said they're accepting around $700/sqf typically. That seems to be the new price for luxury buildings in williamsburg - northside piers is right there for nice units and so is 125N10th. I also saw 70 Berry today - nothing to compare to 80 Met in terms of quality and finishes. And you can see a major water leak in the ceilings of a bunch of the units...

Hey TGI we were at 70 berry today as well. Didn't notice the major leak you are referring to. Do you remember where it was? What floor or unit? Thanks in advance.

tgi..Are you looking at w11? what else you seeing in wmburg?

tgir, who was it who gave you that figure?

this is the reality, I am paying 731 a square foot. That IS the actual market. Am I sucker??

actually, correction, 681 a square foot

the floor is a big factor...what floor was that on?....not outdoor space i assume

probably 2nd floor, facing met ave
but i think (today) thats a good price, certainly in the future units will sell for less

Here is another thing, the broker is claiming that 61 of 114 units of sold, but then others are claiming those are not bone fide sales, i.e. at least 40% of those are blocks of apartments bought by the developer under "dummy" names. Do you folks agree with that?

The developers reps keep bragging and assuring people how special Steiner is financially, that they would never raise the maintenance, that they have no need to turn it in a rental if the ramining 60 to 80 units dont sell, that they have deep pockets, what do you folks think?

buyer314 - I'm curious about the developer buying the units and how that works. I noticed on a few ACRIS searches that there were no other names except for Steiner Equities, which is confusing. Any ideas about this or examples of "dummy" names used?

so whats the latest on how many units are actually sold?

what is going on with the longstanding contracts pending closing here?..aren't they supposed to all close now?....did billyres ever close?

talks about 80 metrop--

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/31/realestate/31cov.html

jim-- to my knowledge 5th and 6th floor do not yet have tco, but i can't see why those on floors 1-4 wouldn't have closed if they intended too

ill give them one thing...i took a tape measure to the places...and its actually pretty close to whats in the floorplans. unlike The Edge which is totally egregious

i give 80 met a thumbs up

howd you measure at the edge....in an unfinihsed unit?

what happened to billyres?...did he close

i had an appointment and went into the actual units. not even close...alcove part of the alcove studio was listed 9'4 by 9'4...more like 7x8 of livable space..i know its stuff that they are "legally" allowed to measure by but its very misleading. 80 Met was actually acurate. units felt spacious as opposed to the edge which just felt tiny. less amenities at 80 met, but who knows when the edge will be finished

I stopped by 80 met a few weeks ago to check it out. apparently sales office/ brokers only available by appt, or so i was told by the door security lady who didnt even offer info on how to contact them. this does not seem like a winning sales strategy for a bldg that looks to be selling quite poorly. do you guys find this strange. i would think they would be a little more aggressive about trying to rope in suckers who happen by.

The building is actually not selling poorly. Besides recent sales, there were easily 6-10 prospective buyers this past weekend. And yes, showings are by appointment only. By the way, the contact info is on this very discussion group that you're posting on.

That's good to hear, do you have an estimate of the # of units that have closed?
I'm assuming they have had to discount the asking more towards current market price
Any idea why so many units listed in-contract have not closed?

when i was there the sales guy said "we want to be fair in our pricing the previously in contract buyers", i.e., not discount too much. Somehow that didn't strike me as a really good sales pitch for a new potential buyer -- pay too much so other people won't feel bad (or walk away, i suppose)

fair to...i meant to say

take one for the team jim
it looks like they still have 70-80 ish units to sell
there used to be a fully staffed sales office open during business hours now you need an appointment- even on weekends
this to me does not seem like they are really working to sell these units
without disrespect to newbrooklyn, i'm not sure how you could refute that its selling poorly
2 years of sales and about 4 months of closing and only about 20-30 closed units with 80 or so to go?
and yes the contact info may be on this board, but is that the optimal location for a prospective buyer who happens by the 3/4 empty bldg interested in a showing?--I think they need to see Glengarry glen ross-ABC!!!

Sales are happening although still quite slowly. it seems to me that with concessions etc. prices on most units for new perspective buyers shouldn't exceed to much others around the area (well except w11 i guess...). As far as their selling strategy, i have no clue. All i can say is that i've been there a month and i'm quite happy;)

I have an inkling at to one of the reasons sales have been tough. I walked by the building several months ago and liked it. I called to make an appointment to see a unit and left a message. After 2 days of no call back I left another message. After 2 wks from initial call I get a message from the sales department apologizing for the delay and "we have been very busy we can show it to you now". At that point I had an accepted offer somewhere else. Did anyone else experience this?

Moxie, that is interesting and ridiculous that a project that has so many units left to sell is so laissez-faire about making sales. I can come up with 3 hypotheses-
1. Incompetence
2. Arrogance
3. Impending doom/bankruptcy

one brklyn bridge park
Sales Center Hours: Monday – Thursday: 11AM-6PM, Friday: 11AM-4PM, Saturday and Sunday: 12PM-3PM
Open House Hours: Saturday and Sunday 12PM-3PM

Northside piers:
Hours of Operation
Mon-Fri: 10-6
Sat & Sun: 11-6

Edge:
Open House: every Saturday and Sunday from 12-3 PM

70 berry
Open House Schedule
Sun Feb 07, 12:00 Noon - 2:00 PM

get the point?

I know its probably the least likely choice of your three options but "arrogance" is what was exhibited in the message left for me. It was surely peculiar that I can tell you. If I owned in the building I would be unhappy with the laissez faire approach.

I also had phone calls not returned. I called back a couple times until I got someone, and then they were in a hurry but agreed to see me....

The big question for this place is whether all the people in contract are closing. If so, they still have half to go..after like 2 or more years of marketing. Prices are too high. And too many amenities.

"and too many amenities"....was really the rub for me and the wife. in order to afford the higher maintenance(too support those extras) it meant we had to look at smaller less expensive listings. in the long run we made the choice that we would prefer a bigger apartment and give up a lot of the extras. At least I wasn't the only who didn't get a call back. If I lived there I would be pretty peeved with that unprofessional approach.

ihave the feeling they are just hoping to get the in contract people to close...and then they will cut prices more aggressively to sell it....just a guess

they definitely should be more aggressive at this point on all front at this point.

http://curbed.com/archives/2010/02/09/two_new_williamsburg_developments_pass_50_percent_sales_mark.php

RRRRRRRRight
but look how many outstanding contracts there are that havent closed over the many months they have been doing closings
these are dead..they were signed pre-crash
if these people were going to close--they would have done so already
but yet they still tout them as "units sold"..clearly just for marketing
how about this as a better sales strategy:

OPEN UP THE F'ING SALES OFFICE, HAVE OPEN HOUSES, AND RETURN PHONE CALLS!

biillyres....have u closed?..if not, will you?..when?

it says 4C went into contract in november 2007!!!! what a joke

kiz, totally agree with you on the last point, and yes, this is pure marketing, but I wouldn't write off these earlier contracts as dead just yet. There could be protracted negotiations here, which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I think a good approach might be offering to pay ask or close to ask but making them pay all closing costs and maintenance+taxes for as long as possible (I'm talking several years here). If they scoff at that (and it's kind of a win-win at this point), it might be better to walk.

why does this business have to be so shady?? i just went through the "contract" listings and theyre ridiculous. 2007, 2008..multiple listing / delistings for the same units. this is terrible.

people will sit in contract over a year?

how could you be in contract in 2007 or 2008...have the building start closing and people actually move in, but you remain in contract? i really wish I had known this before going to see the places. they were so smug about how they were selling places and "theres only a few left"

marco, honestly, it's hard to take what you say at face value given the 1BBP thread, but if they told you "there's only a few left" that's pretty horrible lying. Regardless, I wouldn't get so offended at that kind of stuff - it means so little in the end.

i dont beleive they said "there's only a few left". I was there in November (after calling a few times) and they were VERY precise about numbers closed, in contract, moved in, etc. . Why do people feel the need to clutter this board with exagerations?

nyc2009 is the worst example of bogus information on se...but he/she is not alone

I think the PR effort is designed to exert pressure on the 34 people still in contract. Once this is cleared, they can try to sell the remaining 60-70 remaining units. I wonder if these contracts have price guarantee that will be void post-closing.

they told me there are only 3 studios left. go ahead and call.

My guess is that their number one priority is to not scare off those in contract. That may even explain the low key marketing, because they know buyers will all ask for big discounts. Once they have the birds-in-hand really closed, then they can be more flexible without risking losing. Those in contract wouldn't have post-closing price gtee clauses because they date from before the downturn, I think

marco...you didn't mention "studios" in your first post..so it was misleading...period ..and your point about contracts out for couple years...well,...it was not ready for occupancy...

i should have specified studio's.

Are you sure you didn't misunderstand them? According to StreetEasy, of the 13 active listings, 3 of them are studios. Perhaps they meant that there are 3 studios on sale now? I have no idea how many studios are actually left in the whole building, released or not.

I think the PR effort is designed to exert pressure on the 34 people still in contract. Once this is cleared, they can try to sell the remaining 60-70 remaining units. I wonder if these contracts have price guarantee that will be void post-closing.

my broker and the sales guy were very clear about there only being 3 studos left..also mentioning that they may even combine one with a 2br to make a 3br unit..now is it the old trick of saying 3 of whats been released or 3 out of the total population...i have no idea.

I'm not an expert, but i think they should just release more units at a slightly better price. I don't quite understand the whole released units/not released units. In the end once you go there they are all for sale anyway.

The reason is that they are required by the bank to sell 1,2,3 bedrooms and studios at about the same speed. They are not allowed to sell all of the one bedrooms first and then try to sell the others. It could crash if they were not able to sell the other apts of different sizes. That is why they always talk in percentages rather than actual number sold. They don't want you to know how crappy sales actually are.

nyc2009, that doesn't make much sense. The developer has virtually no control over the interest generated in the building, and if there's more interest in 1BRs (for example), that's just the way it is. The only factor in their hands is pricing, and I don't see differently sized apartments priced in a grossly disproportionate way.

nyc2009 is the dumbest poster on SE (not the most annoying, but without doubt the dumbest)

We all have to strive for distinction in our own ways.

btw, i didn't mean to suggest that nyc2009 isn't annoying but she/it has a lot of competition on that front....nyc2009 also wins the "bogus insights" award hands down

but is nyc2009 really jerry? jerry had a much more entertainingly defensive edge to him.

i had the triumvirate as Jerry/Seahawk/Dewyagi
I know Jerry and Seahawk are one and the same Dewyagi is a guess

All of you numb nuts need to go take a first time buyers class. The come back and apologize. Selling all 1 bedrooms before any others caused several properties in Harlem to go bankrupt. I am not saying a shady sales office wont do it but they are not supposed to. Warburg was thrown off some new developments for doing it.

jim, hilarious. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt up to a certain point, and his "insights" have certainly voided that benefit by now.