What's in my walls??

When was your building constructed?

1916...being pretty ignorant, I thought I'd hit the proverbial lath of plaster-and-lath at some point, but it's all just sand and tears in there. I mean, sand and cement. and that strange coil. Thank you!

Few more facts to help trigger some advice: is his an interior or exterior wal? Any sign of wood laths? Horsehair? Underlying structure (brick, cement, wood)? is there electrical in his wall (outlets, switches, or phone)? Cant wait to hear what others think.

Sorry! I meant to mention that It is an exterior wall. I think the splintered, straw-like bits are rotted wood lath. Horsehair...I don't think I see anything resembling this. There is an outlet in this wall, right below all this mees, in fact. Underlying structure: I don't know. Brick, cement, wood...I'd say all of the above. I've uploaded pics on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/29339625@N08/sets/72157629875377687/

IMHO the best thing to do ASAP is get your super in to look at it. If he's been there any length of time I would guess he knows a lot about the building and its construction.

The straw-like stuff was mixed in with the layer of plaster to help hold it together. No laths in the wall; they're thin -- maybe .25" -- strips of wood nailed horizontally to studs. Your wall is brick, then a layer of something like gypsum block to grab the plaster, then layers of plaster.

The rusted coiled stuff is flexible metal conduit with wiring inside.

Since the source of the water has been identified and fixed, not that big a deal to repair the plaster. (Not that anything in NYC is ever not a big deal....)

Macau: Good that you took the pictures.
Contact the super, the minute you send a letter to the managing agent by e-mail with the photos attached.

Thanks all!
Gypsum block...as in, it could contain asbestos? Lord, I hope not. I expect the super will tell us the best thing to do is demo the wall then put up dry wall for a cheap "fix"...? Is that an option? It's just that one wall and we were planning built-ins in that portion of the dining room anyway.

NWT, you're so right when you say nothing is ever not a big deal in NYC. Skim coating is insanely expensive so I don't even want to ask how much it would be to repair an entire plaster wall. Most of the wall is solid and holding up, but I'm guessing that's just facade and if I were to continue digging out that hole, it would cause an internal avalanche of powdered plaster.

Any recommendations on how best to proceed with the repair? (management will not get involved. We bought the place as is.)
Thank you all for this advice and info!

Per the coop rules an exterior wall is the coop responsibility. The "as is" buy does not protect the coop from liability. Unless there is more to this story that is not shared with us all.

Will you make a claim on your home owner's policy?

Also, since this is an exterior wall, do you know whether the bricks on the exterior side of this wall have been pointed? or are in need of pointing?

IMO, if your bld was built in 1916, I doubt there's asbestos.

Good luck with this.

Thanks realtime! - no more story than when we first walked into the apartment, the broker told us the building had done the repointing and the buyer would have to do the wall repair, and we agreed. There was damage there already when we saw it, though nothing like what's there now (we took a spackle knife to scrape away the efflorescing). Our primary concern was mold then...anyway, I will ask the board prez what people in the building have done in the past in such situation (I'm we're not the only ones to have this problem on the top floor, and I"m sure the building knew what repair they were facing, decided to saddle the buyers with the burden, and priced the apartment accordingly).

Is dry wall an option without lathing and studs? Can anybody estimate how much a plaster repair or drywall installation would be? Or are there alternative solutions to this problem? Short of buying many large, leafy potted plants to hide trouble behind, I'm willing to try anything.

I hope Primer, the contractor, posts and he can opine as to what all that stuff is in the photos.

Macau,
do you have the ability to do this work yourself? Maybe you want to get a contractor? IMO, I don't think a patch will do the job. I gotta feeling that the entire wall may need to be redone. Sorry.

if you're on the top floor, this damage may have been caused by faulty roof leaders & gutters: water wasn't properly channeled to flow into gutters and down leaders, so water flowed on top of the exterior brick mortar & penetrated your wall. But, I'm just guessing. Has the co-op replaced the roof's leaders & gutters?

or the old gutter/leaders had holes and water penetrated the exterior wall's mortar.

and management does need to be involved. The building doesn't "price accordingly", the seller may have, but the building is still responsible for some of the repair work to walls.

Primer may be on here later,or tomorrow.

Macau,

I could be wrong but it looks like it is plaster and a lath, same way metal is used but was made from something else. That project is too small for me but if you want me to stop by and take a look I would be happy to.

primerenovations@mac.com

Thanks, dwell. I understand all that. The source of moisture is gone. As I've mentioned, the repairs are done.We haven't had many rainy days, but so far, so dry. And I agree with you that the work may be too much for my limited skill. That's why I'd like to know what the repair would involve so I can have a better idea of how to proceed. I could have it professionally done, but would obviously prefer not to, if diy-able. On a 1-10 scale, I'd say I rank a 6) do I do plaster repair or do I do drywall? How much for either option? Is it possible to DIY such a thing? I suspect, if I wanted to, I could rip the whole wall off right now it's so crumbly. But what could be lurking behind it...

Basically, I'd like to know what a sensible person would do in this situation. This is part of my research, if you will. Right along googling all sorts of variations on Plaster on Gypsum Lath Repair.

1) while it's open, put your hand in the hole and touch the bricks, just to make sure they're dry. If the interior-facing surface of an exterior brick feels damp, then you might want to address that but putting a moisture barrier over those bricks while you've got access from the interior side, although there might also be pointing issues you want to address from the exterior side as well.

2) I wouldn't leave the hole open just in case you've got a friendly roommate you don't know about (I'm thinking mousie) who wants to crawl into that hole to stay warm, and then gets boxed in during the repair. Even a tarp or a garbage bag held in place with painters' tape would make me feel better about the whole thing, just until you do a formal rebuild.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Front-porch - Ew. Thanks for the tip. I did touch the bricks (today being rainy - a good thing for once) and it doesn't feel damp at all.

Primer05 - Thanks so much! I'll see what info I get from the building first, before asking such a favor. While I was digging around there, I didn't hit any resistance (if that makes sense) in form of lath or stud. All that's in there is that metal conduit and all that straw. I did see online that Lime plaster was sometimes applied directly to masonry without lathing, which is I think what NWT was saying. http://www.nps.gov/hps/tps/briefs/brief21.htm

What other things could the lath have been made of if not metal or wood (I quickly googled this and promptly got directed to eco-friendly adobe hut construction using bales of straw. I mean...) If there is no lath, I'm guessing there could be no studs either?

My own 1912 exterior walls are brick with long vertical strips of metal furring maybe 1" thick, 2" wide, and about a foot apart. Attached to them are gypsum-board sheets. They're like sheetrock, but with no paper, are sort of dimpled/corrugated to hold the plaster, and have that straw-like stuff mixed in.

Then there's a couple inches of plaster, a brown scratch coat and a finer white coat. Total depth from face of brick to face of wall is 3", deep enough for electrical boxes.

I think it's likely there's some air space in your wall, like mine, for insulation and so damp wouldn't travel right through. (Not water, like a leak, but the plain moisture that's always going through brick walls and evaporating.)

You'd use the expanded metal lath Primer05 mentioned to fill the bulk of the hole, separate the plaster from the brick, and give the plaster something to grab onto.

You mentioned that there was electrical in that wall. I'd be real careful messing around in there; electrical can cause fires & give you a nasty shock. I don't see how it could hurt asking the super what he knows. Also, this would be a great time to get to know your neighbors; they might know something. Do be careful. Good luck & let us know what happens. Meanwhile, don't use that electrical socket till you get someone in there who knows what they're doing.

Why? Are cops asking questions about you walls?

NWT - That is exactly what's in there, air space and all!

drdrd - Fortunately, I've met all the neighbors on my floor and they're all very nice. And I know they must have had issues with leaks, too, if I had them. Maybe one of them knows a good, affordable handyman. I suspect they'll suggest approaching the super (who I feel angles for extra jobs sometimes. Understandable, sure, but not sure I want to go that route).

Primer05 - you said the job is too small for you, which is very understandable. Do you know anybody who has experience with this and would like to take on a small (week-long? weekend?) job like this? Or could your run of the mill handyman handle this? Again...I wouldn't be opposed to getting rid of the wall and putting up plasterboard - easier for installing built-ins, i think.