able to engage buyers broker?

You absolutely can. One thing that might get in the way: Have you already signed paperwork recognizing the listing broker as dual agent?

If you decide to introduce a broker on your side, make sure your new broker understands the situation fully, so he/she can handle the initial communication properly.

Department of State says that you can be represented by anybody you want, but in the biz we consider that you pick your representation at the point of offer.

If you've already made an offer on a place, I think that the listing broker of that particular place could argue that you've accepted their representation, even for future offers. I would ask an atty familiar with NY laws about this.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

The same thing happened to me a while back. I made a reasonable offer, didn't have a broker, and was needled by the seller's broker to offer more than I was comfortable with (above asking). I wanted to bring in a representative for myself but didn't want to make the seller's broker angry. I ended up backing out over another issue with the building and the place eventually sold for almost 10% less than the offer I was STRONGLY encouraged to make. I blame myself. I'm a people-pleaser and I hate to be confrontational and I absolutely needed a buyer's broker to do the negotiating for me. Unless you've signed off on something, get your own advocate. You owe the seller's agent nothing.

ues1977 One other important point to consider: if you now are represented, i.e. buyer's broker, the negotiations may become even more difficult. You've already said that your offer was rejected as being too low. Your broker will expect two and half to three percent from the seller as his/her commission for co-brokering the sale. Don't you think the seller will factor this amount into the "new" acceptable offer. If the seller has to pay up to six percent for the sale, this will definitely alter his thinking.

Ali: I respectfully disagree. The prior offer was rejected without a counter. There is no active negotiation, let alone a meeting of the minds on price.

And frankly, buyers and sellers don't care what we "in the biz" think. It's their money. They make the rules, especially since DoS thinks the biz is FoS on this issue.

Agree with W81. This is an issue that is so much easier with the 2011 Agency Disclosure rules. If the listing agent wants to claim both sides, s/he better have a signed Dual Agency form; if they don't have that, they better have an acknowledgment that the bidder recognizes that the agent represents only the seller. If they have neither, the manager should quickly recognize that this is not a dispute the listing firm wants to have.

Even if they have a Dual Agency form signed, there is an interesting question about how effective a revocation of that consent to dual agency is. Sharp lawyers would argue that all such consents are revocable, at which point the fee-splitting issue comes down to REBNY rules. This may be too much Inside Baseball for this forum, but the NYS agency rules govern only who represents whom, not who shares a commission; REBNY rules govern how / when commissions are split. You could have a situation in which a buyer is *entitled* to separate representation, but his/her agent will only get paid if the buyer agrees to pay separately.

"If you've already made an offer on a place, I think that the listing broker of that particular place could argue that you've accepted their representation, even for future offers."

without having signed anything or even verbal acknowledgment?

and you wonder whys many people think that real estate brokers are sleaze balls?

yuck.

fager 1 - "If the seller has to pay up to six percent for the sale"

Isn't the seller likely to be paying 5-6% commission irrespective of whether there is a buyers broker or not (subject to the specific agreement or not)? I figured it'd just be the seller's broker who would get annoyed at this, because his commission is likely to halved.

Amazing, front_porch, amazing.

Hi columbiacounty.

I thought the common perception among the Streeteasy congnoscenti was that all sellers brokers would do absolutely anything to get a direct deal done, because we're all money grubbing realtwhores. This sort of flies in the face of that doesn't it?

Westie, I hear you, but you're not a lawyer, and neither am I. We can't make a ruling on the law of this.

And Sandy, who has more experience than both of us put together, has noted under REBNY that the new buyer's broker might not be paid by seller...which I think is what the OP is really asking about.

I recently had Yvonne Stafford Real Estate refuse to co-broke a property and allow me to have a broker on my side.

Some brokers are willing to violate REBNY rules and their clients best interest for a couple of percentage points.

Prawn, please give us more details regarding this experience. I've already sent this link t
o Yvonne and Rebny attorny Neil Garfinlel. Both might be interested. Of course a false claim could turn out badly for you...

front_porch: I think Sandy was referring specifically to the scenario where the buyer has signed an agency disclosure. Clearly, that changes the landscape.

ues1977 - not true. Some agreements (maybe most these days) b/w seller and her broker are structured to pay less commission for direct sales. I am a seller and will tell you that with our broker agreement, we are willing to take a much, much lower offer from a direct buyer. Even for those w/agreements that don't differentiate, you will find that brokers are willing to take 5 or 4.5% to make a deal done with a direct seller but are less flexible when their commission is 3-2.5% in a co-broke deal.

Nope, W81, I was separating out issues of representation and compensation. Compensation is determined by REBNY rules (for members) or other agreement (non-members). Representation is regulated by NYS Agency law and is determined by agreement between consumer and agent which MUST be recorded on the disclosure form.

If the OP question was really "can my (new) buyer agent get paid?" that answer depends on REBNY rules or other agreement between brokerages (REBNY rules really are just a bunch of pre-set agreements between brokerages).

If the OP question was really "can I bring in a buyer agent to represent me?", then the documents control. If the listing agent is not already a Dual Agent (because the OP agreed to that on a form) I don't see that the listing agent can prevent it, and I doubt the listing brokerage would make a stink over it (for fear of scrutiny over it not having gotten a proper disclosure form signed already). I happen to believe that the OP can bring in a buyer agent even if s/he signed a Dual Agent form, by revoking that consent to that agency, but that is a more refined question that I have not seen lawyerly guidance on.

Jim H - It's not a false claim. It is an actual experience.

Anyone know what the SOURCE of the money is in a real estate transaction?
Multiple choice:

a) Warren Buffett
b) Seller
c) Andrew Cuomo
d) Seller's broker
e) Barack Obama
f) Vladimir Putin
g) Buyer's broker
h) Buyer
i) Barbara Corcoran
j) Pineapple

Thanks, Sandy. That's a helpful clarification.

Let's not even start on what happens if one of the firms isn't a REBNY member.

ues 1977 you did not say what kind of broker was representing the seller, i.e. some of the so-called discount brokers, such as Real Direct, charge considerably less than 5 or 6 percent. Real Direct advertises that they charge two percent, but they are candid about not providing all of what a so-called "full-service" broker offers, such as hosting an unlimited number of Open Houses.

Ultimately when a listing broker decides not to co-broke, (share commission-which this is really about) which is extremely rare, it hurts the seller most and of course the buyer. It may be a bitter pill to swallow after you have a few conversations, share some emails and think that you are going to keep it all on this sale. But there are many reasons a buyer can suddenly feel spooked, unrepresented and alone on a deal and realize they would like their own broker a few steps into the process; IMHO this should be tolerated by the list side. If we provide this type of service, it will benefit everyone in the long run and proverbial big picture.

It has been my experience that most brokers/agents are professional and will abide by the buyers wishes for representation. There may be some limits to this and it should be handled correctly by all parties involved. But the clients wishes should be adhered to.

This is just common, good business sense and the right thing to do.

Keith Burkhardt
The Burkhardt Group

I once had a buyer bring in their broker after we had an accepted offer, right before contracts went out, she said oh and this is my broker...We had to take it because until contracts are out any buyer can chose their own representation. If your a buyer i would recommend you alert everyone about your new rep as soon as possible. Especially since now some brokers are cutting their commissions to make a deal happen.

angeloz: Another aspect of commission-cutting is that a broker introduced late might accept a smaller buy-side split. That's easy for those of us who offer rebates to clients: if necessary, we can work out an adjustment to the rebate. It can be more difficult for brokers at big firms: there's no rebate to adjust, and "the house" is still likely to take its full cut.

Agreed that a buyer should really think this through and enlist their buy-side broker sooner rather than later. Regardless of whom they are choosing. My personal feelings are that if a buyer calls me after they have an accepted offer, that's too late to engage me.

However if we are talking about them (the client) having been to an open house or maybe one private showing and they want to engage my services, I will reach out to the listing agent and discus the situation. In almost every case the listing agent welcomed us in and often I have heard feedback that our involvement wound up making for smooth sailing.

Most successful listing agents would rather have a competent buy-side agent managing the buyers expectations; as they have their hands full with the seller. Of course their are always exceptions to this.

KeithB, what would you have done if the broker said hey I cut my commission down to 2% so the seller would accept this deal, would you take a referral fee? or would you want 50% of the 2%? what if the broker doesnt want to give up any of his 2%?

Also, how would you handle a buyer who found a FSBO, and there is no commission from the FSBO, yet the buyer still wants you to do the deal?

angelz:Not sure I follow the first part of your question. As I stated I would not get involved if there was an accepted offer.

First there are very few FSBO's, I have done a grand total of one and I accepted 2.5% from the seller.

west 81st and keithB could you please comment on that.

Let's not even start on what happens if one of the firms isn't a REBNY member.

I thought that all broker's are members of REBNY. Is it legal for them not to be? If it is should they disclose it right away? Also what about all those tiny shops in outer boroughs? So if I understand correctly if a broker is not a member he does not have to share commission and buyer will pay buyer's broker out of their own pocket?

Also, doesn't the buyer's broker prepare board package?
Gives advice on passing the board? Finds out what type of board and the requirements?

You sign a universal co-brokerage agreement. In actuality it would be "illegal" to exclude a brokerage from conducting business. See the Department of Justices regarding anti-trust laws.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/press_releases/2005/211008.htm

what does it have to do with not being a member of rebny and not sharing commission?

Bela: REBNY is a trade association. Membership is optional. Some firms find it advantageous; others don't. Member firms agree to follow certain ground rules in their dealings with each other. One of these standards is 50-50 sharing of commissions between the listing broker (seller's agent) and selling broker (buyer's agent).

In practice, the same standards are adhered to whether the firms are REBNY members or not, though some additional paperwork may be needed for non-REBNY firms - such as a co-brokerage agreement for each deal. The only time membership seems to matter is when a dispute arises over commissions. That's why I mentioned the question of REBNY membership. normally, it doesn't matter at all.

A debate over REBNY's merits might make for a lively thread, but I don't think it's a topic the OP or most other civilians will find very interesting.

west 81st so is it legal for broker to refuse to split commission or co-broke?

It's legal for the buyer to walk away if the buyer and his side of the deal isn't being treated properly.

not a lawyer but doesn't the disclosure form say that it is not a contract