If you can demonstrate market movement with comps, please post here.

samnyc: Potentially all of the above, plus light and air quality. That stretch of West End is pretty busy, so an apartment on the second floor gets dinged a bit in my book. Mostly, I mentioned the floor because the Stribling listing doesn't appear to address the question at all, so I assumed the worst.

It's not as though all low-floor apartments are problematic. Facing the courtyard at the Apthorp, Belnord or Astor Court, for example, it's basically a non-issue. Also different people have different sensitivities. If you don't really care about views and don't plan to resell for a long time, a low floor can represent great value.

Sammy, West81st, et al: When talking about low/high floors, keep in mind that some buildings, mostly lofts and rehabs, have very high ceiling heights. Often the ground floor has a 20ft-plus ceiling and the higher floors have not only high ceilings but thick floors. Therefore a 4th floor loft can equal a fifth or even sixth floor in a lower-ceilinged building.

west81st,

certainly if it is a 2nd floor or even a 3rd floor apartment that would explain the low price. but that stretch of west end is fine--i think anything about 73rd street is great and i actually prefer west end in the low 70s with the proximity to fairway, citarella, and the 72nd subway. one thing i now remember not liking about 290 is that it looks across west end at the schwab house, not exactly the most pleasant view. nonetheless i think this is a pretty notable price.

310 West 72nd Street "H" line: front-facing 3BR/2BA; third BR is very small.

--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
CURRENT .... #9H .................. |↓ $1,495,000 3 beds
12/07/2006 #8H $1,595,000 - | . $1,595,000 3 beds 2 baths

The two units are essentially identical. In fact, the Halstead agent (who also sold #8H) recycled the description for the listing of #9H.

West 81: Regarding 8A at 186 RSD. It is a beautifully renovated apt with high end finishes and it's been well maintained. It gets good eastern light, but you're right that the living room window faces the mechanicals of the building next door. For many people, that's been a turn off.That view was not an issue on the 9th floor, but the apt on the 9th floor would take $300,000 to reach the level of finish in 8A.

186 is a prime full service RSD building with a strict co-op board that has had several board turn downs in recent months.(Go figure...)

Co-ops in general are looking at high liquidity and applicants who are not bonus dependent for their incomes.

We're having an open house on Sunday...stop by and say Hi...

On low floor apartments:

Based on my experience, two major concerns you should have are:
1. In pre-war buildings mice can be a problem on the lower floors.
2. Air quality can be very poor, too, and if you or family members are sensitive to that, you may not be able to live there.

I think you'd need to be at least on the 4th floor in pre-war buildings, and 6th floor in postwar buildings to escape these problems. There is a reason why so many apartments on the market are on lower floors...there's no free lunch!

nshipley: Thanks very much. I don't know what the Board at 186 is thinking. It's not exactly the most desirable building on RSD. It's not even the most desirable building on the block.

mrsblogs. Good point about mice. Roaches and waterbugs tend to be more prevalent on lower floors as well. Rats too. And alligators.

790 RSD (the Riviera) #4J just sold. Gentrification in Washington Heights seems to be hitting a wall.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/154632-coop-790-riverside-drive-washington-heights-new-york

The good news is that, with the market cooling off, a humble CUNY computer scientist can afford a classic seven in Manhattan.

Sorry - that last one was 42% off the original ask and below reasonable comps from early 2006.

Thanks for all the input. I didn't think about the air quality or rodent problem on the lower levels before. Sam.

I think apt 3c at 290 should be compared with classic 7 at 270 west end for 3.05M and 277 west end 6c for 2.295 . They are all on the same block. West 81st and others what do you think they will trade for? Do you see why 270 gets such a premium ( I do not)?
I think 277 under 2M, 270 at 2.2 and 290 at 2.3.

mrsblogs: "...there's no free lunch!"

Ah, music to my ears, mrs blogs. simple, common-sense, music to my ears.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/353204-condo-372-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york

Sorry, I don't know the sale price but I only post it to ask if someone could perhaps explain the reason for the price increase.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/229508-coop-1120-fifth-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york

37% on 5th avenue... so much for the high end holding...

nyc10022,

this is a thread for comps, and i don't see any comp from which this is down 37%. the only previous sale in this line was 8A in 2005 for 11 million. now 4A is asking significantly more. how does that demonstrate a decline?

bela: re: 6c @ 277 west end as a comp for the 290 west end listing, i know that 277 was listed with another broker before and went to contract. they buyer balked and gave up their deposit. it's an estate sale and they're anxious to get it sold, and as they've already collected +/-$300K they're pricing it on the low end I think.

also - and I should have added this in my original post, also in 277 west end apartment 12MC is the exact same footprint as 6c (we looked at both). Sold for $2.2mn see here - http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/753581 - I'm pretty sure that 6c would sell for slightly lower than that. it needs a lot of work, but to the point of $ per square foot if it sells for $2mn (which I believe it would if someone made that offer) it would be less than $800 per square foot. Not a particularly nice building, but it's more than fine.

The C line at 277 is just not that great. If the 12th floor sold for 2.2 in better condition in September, the 6th floor should sell for well under 2.

Mark to market - the 11-room combination at 50 RSD just went into contract after being relisted at 3.65m. I went to see it, very good original condition (not caked in layers of paint, all original fixtures).

At 21 East 22nd Street (next door to One Madison Park);

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/292879-coop-21-east-22nd-street-flatiron-new-york

10F has been on the market for 206 days and is being offered 27% below its late-05 purchase price:

12/08/2005 Previous sale closed for $1,295,000
06/13/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Elliman at $1,195,000
09/29/2008 Price decreased to $1,095,000
12/08/2008 Price decreased to $950,000

The listing begins with "ALL OFFERS CONSIDERED."

That is a pretty big drop from the 2005 price. But who would pay that much for a one bedroom with no window in the bathroom?

tenemental, great find - that is a considerable and real drop. I am amazed that place sold for that much 3 years ago, but hey, it counts!

Stumbled across this 3BR, just off 5th Ave, asking $2.499m. 2B, 10 floors lower sold for $2.795m in 2007:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/292811-coop-8-east-83rd-street-upper-east-side-new-york

Here coem the losses at the plaza...

http://ny.therealdeal.com/articles/two-plaza-units-list-below-purchase-prices

you know, I didn't look carefully... but we're talking a SIXTEEN PERCENT LOSS... and those are off contracts signed in, what, 2006?

Apologies if someone posted this earlier, but this is a remarkable drop:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/346134-condo-203-w-90th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

Originally asking $975k in September, now asking $595k (in contract). 3F (one floor up) sold for $905k in April. I'm not 100% sure the layouts are identical, given somewhat limited info, but if they are, that's a legit 30%+ drop. Someone may have come out with a pretty good deal here.

The information is sketchy, yes, but considering the size of 3F my impression is that a similar apt. which is really about 800 sq ft, would sell for mid to low 500K with the added incentive of low CC Maint. How in hell could that enter contract for 905K in early 08 defies comprehension.

Trompiloco, I agree - as with tenemental's example above, it's amazing to see what some people paid, but these are real comps, so they obviously count. I do think this is about as extreme an example as I've seen until now though.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/233746-coop-541-east-72nd-street-upper-east-side-new-york

541 East 72nd, apt. 5A: Sold for $795,000 in August 2006. With latest price cut, it's now listed at $775,000.

Still vastly overpriced. It's a one-bedroom. The "second" bedroom measures 15 x 6, and was cut out of the living room.

bjw2103: Same footprint, I think, though a different layout.

The sale history on #3F looks like the bubble in a nutshell:
05/15/2008 905,000
05/19/2006 830,000
04/08/2003 431,000

$905K is a lot of money for a dark 1BR over the kitchen of Saigon Grill. Actually, $595K (plus transfer taxes) is STILL a lot of money for a dark 1BR slightly higher above the kitchen of Saigon Grill.

bjw:

For what it's worth, re: 8 e 83rd, I think they turned the DR into a BR, so, it's really a 2 BR apt. Here's a floor plan of another apt (3F) in the bld showing a DR: http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/85/2616385.jpg and http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/27053/floorplans

I think it's still overpriced at $2.49m, esply since it seems like a 2BR. Maybe I'd buy it at $1.5m-ish.

dwell, I agree, it's a lot of money, though I think it has much to do with the location. You can hit the Met tourists with spitballs from your bedroom window. Pretty unique.

bjw,
Agree re: spitballs & Met tourists (are you spying on me? how'd you know my favorite hobby?)

Are you looking at this area? I'd love this location, but a bit further south.

dwell, I lived in that area a few years ago (78/Mad), and while there's much to love about it, I'm not ready to go back until I'm older at least. I am one of the suckers who fell for Brooklyn, which is quite different, as you might know (except for Brooklyn Heights, which is quite reminiscent of the UES in some ways). And you're not alone on enjoying torturing those Met tourists. There's just so many of them!

another grossly overpriced apartment on the 3rd floor of the beresford. this new one doesn't even have the southeast corner going for it. are these prices just for shits and giggles?
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/211-central-park-west-new_york

alrighty.. .guys you know what's coming....

hmmmmmmm..... "burn mother !!!!!!!!!!!!, burn... we don't need no water, let the ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ burn."

Me thinks 50% might've been too premature :)

bjw: are you looking to leave Brklyn? You're right, the UES can be dull; it's like the burbs of Manhattan.

happy: "shits and giggles?" Geez, i heart this board. These are 2 things I would not instinctively link.

w67th: this ain't Newark, not yet anyway.

dwell, no - I really love Brooklyn. For now, it fits me better. Will I ever come back to Manhattan? Maybe, but it'll be interesting to see what it looks like a couple years from now.

541 East 72nd, apt. 5A

Other thing to comment about this is it looks like they renovated when they bought in 2006. So the comp is even more telling.

120 East 81st Street "H" line: Post-war classic seven 3BR/3BA; ~2100 Sq.ft.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/120-east-81-street-manhattan

--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
12/29/2008 . #2H $1,825,000 -14.9% | ↓ $2,145,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths
08/16/2007 #11H $2,995,000 ............| . $2,995,000 3 beds 3 baths 2,100 ft²

The initial pricing of #2H at exactly the selling price of #11H ($2.995MM) was a bit batty, given the nine-floor disparity, the extra windows on one side of #11H and a likely edge in condition. Still, the footprints are identical, and #2H isn't oppressively dark. $870 psf for a big 7 in this location/school district - with maintenance well under $1 psf and utilities included - seems significant.

Also note: This deal went to contract in August, though it's possible that the sellers made subsequent concessions to get it closed.

2004 (or earlier) asking price on a quite fantastic 3 bedroom loft in prime chelsea:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/232099-condo-144-west-18th-street-chelsea-new-york

144 West 18th Street #6W:
STREETEASY HISTORY
05/08/2008
Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $3,900,000
06/20/2008
Price decreased to $3,750,000
06/30/2008
Price decreased to $3,250,000
09/17/2008
Price decreased to $2,895,000
01/06/2009
Price decreased to $2,495,000

Recorded Sales:
06/04/2007 #500W $3,350,000
09/12/2005 #500W $2,700,000
09/29/2004 #300W $2,400,000

This asking price is now 25% below the peak comp of 5W. I say that this may be a pre-2004 price because this is a beautifully renovated loft and we don't know the condition of 3W. Also, the back-windows in this unit are impacted by the 3 floor difference, so 6W is a more valuable space than 3W.

I should add that there is some nice seller competition happening in this building, with the very similar 4E also on the market. 4E is also priced below comps after a chop 2 weeks ago:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/318268-condo-144-west-18th-street-chelsea-new-york

144 West 18th Street #4E
STREETEASY HISTORY
07/09/2008
Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $3,560,000
09/17/2008
Price decreased to $2,995,000
12/18/2008
Price decreased to $2,695,000

Recorded Sales:
06/29/2007 #600E $3,705,121
06/29/2006 #300E $2,937,500
02/16/2006 #700E $2,900,000 +0.9% $2,875,000
06/20/2005 #200E $2,885,000

This one, also mint condition, is 27% below the peak comp of 6E.

Actually, perhaps the best way to look at this is somewhat different: the E and W lines are very similar, with an extremely slight advantage to the E line. 6E traded for 3.7 million in 2007. 6W--more or less the same apartment on the same floor--is now asking 2.495.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/368284-coop-61-east-86th-street-carnegie-hill-new-york

61 East 86th, apt. 24 : A very small three bed / 2 bath. Bought in August 2007 for $1,500,000. Relisted in December 2008 for same price. With brokerage fees et al., it's an obvious loss even if it sells for ask.

Wow. Can't believe a railroad apartment with 3 tiny bedrooms sold for 1.5 to begin with. I guess a year ago everything sold.

Here's some more softening on prime west end:

473 West End 12B
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/372991-coop-473-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

Just listed at 2.099

Recorded Sales:
03/03/2008 #13B $2,375,000 -4.2% $2,480,000 ↓
06/08/2006 #2B $1,930,000 -1.0% $1,950,000 ↓

> bjw: are you looking to leave Brklyn? You're right, the UES can be dull; it's like the burbs of
> Manhattan.

Absolutely... been saying that since I was a kid.

But, I think there will be a comeback in 5-10 years. Can't get much worse than now. Every kid out of college tries to avoid it like the plague, its not cool, its for old farts. Even the west siders make fun of it. Prices are some of the lowest in all of manhattan (hell, some of brooklyn costs more). Hell, Jay mcinerny wrote that all of the kids of the socialites don't want to live there.

But, mark my words, someone like Madonna is going to move there in a few years, and it will mark the beginning of the "resurgence".

Fact is, you have some huge assets you are not going to replicate elswhere.... 5th avenue, the park proximity, the museums, the classic spots (the regency, the older bistros, jg melons, bla). Besides the 456 there will be those new ones whatever they call it. The low 60s have actually been "hot" with bloomberg building and all that crap, the new hybrid midtown/UES. Fewer projects than few other places (I'm not really thinking 90s, but I'm sure it will benefit). 86th street is going through dramatic change, it and 72nd on the west side used to be ASS but they took down a lo tof the bad stuff, and things like the brompton and lucidia popped up. That was a shady street, and now its getting to be one of the nicer ones. The neighborhood 'aint for everyone, but someone will figure out that it shouldn't be the cheapest spot anymore.

Someone is going to "rediscover" it in 10 years, and it will be on the cover of NY mag or something. And all the kiddies will come running.

It always works that way in this town.

wait. i'm very confused. the ues is cheap? i assume you mean the 90s east of 3rd avenue, right? because west of lexington in the 60s, 70s, and 80s is still one of if not the most expensive parts of town. but then your argument refers to all the reasons why fifth, madison, and park should be expensive (they are close to the park, have the 'classic' spots). i'm just not sure what you're talking about. yes, 96th street and 2nd avenue is pretty cheap, and cheaper than parts of brooklyn. but do you really think 96th street and 2nd avenue is a nicer place to live than prime brooklyn heights?

nyc10022, I'm confused as well. As happyrenter said, there's a pretty clear demarcation line at Lexington Ave. One of my best friends lived on 84/1st, and I was on 78/Madison - the differences are pretty radical for such a short distance. I don't see a "resurgence" simply because that area (the eastern part) was never "there." The post-college crowd is still going there because of cheap rents, but not much else. Maybe, maybe when the 2nd Ave line is complete, it'll draw some more interesting stuff over there, but that's a huge if and a long ways away. Sounds like a slightly nutty "prediction" we all tend to fall in love with from time to time, but rarely ever pan out.

I live on UES and actually think there are a lot of very young professionals and it has a nice vibe to it -- lots of wine bars and without the pretention of soho and other downtown areas where everyone needs to show how cool they are. That said, I do think its slower and not as exciting as other areas.

can we return this to a conversation about comps? west81st put a great one in the price chop conversation earlier so i thought i would share it here:

863 Park Avenue 12E was just reduced to 1.85 million on the elliman website. it started life in october at $3 million. this is an estate sale and probably a wreck, but even if you budget 800k for renovations you are looking at a major decline. 2nd floor in the same line for 3.4 million not even 9 months ago? wowza.

Recorded Sales
05/14/2008 #2E $3,100,000 -8.8% $3,400,000
06/21/2007 #5E $3,502,000 +6.3% $3,295,000
06/02/2004 #2E $1,825,000

I stumbled on a successful flip, and thought I should post it in the interests of "equal time":

225 East 34th (Charleston) #3E:
--------Recorded Sales-----------------|--------Previous Listings----------
12/24/2008 #3E $1,350,000 -3.2% | ↓ $1,395,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,433 ft²
08/04/2008 #3E $1,200,000 -2.8% | ↓ $1,235,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,433 ft²

The August transaction was a sponsor sale, so the distribution of closing costs may have been different for the two deals. Interesting to note that the Lees appear to have paid cash in August, which may have been a factor in the deal they got. Also, so far there's only evidence of about 40% financing on the second sale, though there might be another lien that hasn't shown up in ACRIS yet.

Please BEAR in mind (pun intended) that "successful" is a relative term in this case, meaning only:

"After transaction costs, they got out without losing their shirts, and probably even made a little money."

And now back to the downward spiral on my home turf:

186 RSD "B" line (large, north-facing six, ~1800 sq.ft., 2BR with en-suite BAs plus maid's suite).

--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
CURRENT ....... #8B .................. |↓ $1,595,000 2-3 beds 1,800 ft²
10/27/2008 . #2B $1,835,000 -0.5% | . $1,845,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths
09/22/2005 #16B ..$935,000
03/30/2005 #14B $1,700,000

#8B was reduced 355K this morning, to below the second-floor comp that went to contract in July and closed in October. #8B needs new countertops. Otherwise, condition seems fine.

OK - maybe that kitchen needs a bit more than countertops. Still, that's quite a drop for an apartment of this quality. I think nshipley has some insight on what happened to the prior contract on this one.

This is brutal. High maintenance (along with the overall direction of the market) is absolutely killing apartments like these:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/200-west-79-street-new_york

200 West 79th
Active Listings
↓ $879,000
200 West 79th Street #17F 2 beds 1,000 ft²
↓ $879,000
200 West 79th Street #7F 2 beds 1,000 ft²

10/16/2007 #15F $1,161,500
11/04/2005 #18F $960,000
12/02/2004 #15F $819,000
09/27/2004 #14F $820,000
09/23/2004 #16F $900,000

these apartments are currently asking slightly below one 2004 comp, and slightly above two others. but what I find most interesting is the trajectory between 2004 and 200. 15F appreciated 42% in exactly 3 years. and from that lofty height, the line has now depreciated 25% in terms of asking price, getting us nearly back to the 2004 price (i hope everyone understands the different calculation for an appreciation and a depreciation, which makes a 25% depreciation close to equivalent to a 42% appreciation). and yet, given what is available for rent on the uws right now, i think these apartments still have a lot more to fall. over $5700/month for a nothing-special postwar 2 bedroom when i can rent a nice classic six in the same location for that price? i don't think so.

And the downward march of UWS classic sixes continues:

186 Riverside Drive #8B
STREETEASY HISTORY
05/17/2008
Listed in StreetEasy by Elliman at $1,950,000
01/08/2009
Price decreased to $1,595,000

Recorded Sales:
10/27/2008 #2B $1,835,000 -0.5% $1,845,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths
07/14/2005 #5B $2,089,000 -
03/30/2005 #14-B $1,700,000

west81st (or anyone else) this one appears to be offered as part of a combination as well, but the combination doesn't reflect any price cuts. is it still available to combine or is that off the table?

by the way, think we can now safely put to rest the idea that 15f in 90 riverside was some sort of anomalous good deal. this is a better apartment in better shape, although in a somewhat less fantastic building. it is now asking only 3% more than 15F closed for. this is the new level--for nor--for classic sixes.

nor=now

Happyrenter: Thanks - I mangled the history on the "B" line slightly by deleting #5B (a meaningful comp) when I meant to cut #16B, which is a totally different, rooftop apartment.

#8C can probably still be had if somebody wants that combination badly enough, but I think the differences in seller motivation will most likely lead to #8B being sold separately.

81: So is the new benchmark for UWS, classic six, RSD or WEA 850psf offered side???

West 81: 8B at 186 is an estate sale. While it's in good condition for an estate, it will still need everything. The other apts were in MUCH better condition. The combo is still an option, and it combines beautifully. 8B is about 1700 sf; the one bedroom next door is about 900 sf. They had a deal and a board turndown...

patient09: I think you have to attach some major caveats to any benchmark number, because it's a pretty wide band, and the right number depends on condition and building (which includes the variable of maintenance psf and what services/utilities it pays for), plus layout/flexibility, elevation, etc.. That said, I think you're about right that a serious seller who wants to quickly move a good-not-great classic six in a good-not-great building shouldn't expect more than $850 psf. Above that level, a motivated seller with a similar asset will undercut the price.

nshipley i respectfully disagree that it needs everything--from what i saw it needs more or less a new kitchen but the baths are salvageable. correct me if i am wrong since i saw it a while ago, but the place is not a dump (as compared to, say 15F at 90 RSD which REALLY needed everything).

this is a big, beautiful, high floor classic six apartment with nice exposure. i don't see how this can be spun as anything but a major shift in classic six prices. i think this puts serious pressure on all kinds of apartments: 473 West End 4C--an inferior apartment asking $2.2, or 110 Riverside 15C and 6C, and 12E (still much pricier even after cuts), or even 321 West 78th, which is already asking less than its 2005 price and seems like a great apartment but hasn't moved in three months. How about 515 West End 4D, nowhere near as nice an apartment asking over 1.8, or all the units at 250 west 94th?

perhaps i am off here, but if i can get a great classic six with open exposures on riverside drive in a nice building on a great block for 1.6 (or less, let's see what happens), why would i even consider any of those other apartments?

Thanks, Nan. I thought the bathrooms in #8B were in reasonable shape, and I personally like original baths if they are salvagable, but I see your point.

happyrenter: re. 200 West 79th - although the Gloucester is post-war, don't discount the importance of condition and renovations. Those apartments get pretty shabby if they haven't been updated.

i should add that as bearish as i am, even i am surprised that they can't get a deal going at 755 west end: perfectly nice classic six asking $1.2 million. look out below.

fair enough west81st. i'm not arguing in favor of the gloucester by any strech. just pointing out the comps.

happyrenter: A few comments on some of the apartments you mentioned, FWIW...

- Orsid shows 110 RSD #6C as in contract. Streeteasy doesn't, but Orsid is a bit tech-challenged, so it's not a surprise that the upload wouldn't match their site.

- IMO, 110 RSD #12E will never trade. #15C probably will, but I have no idea where or when.

- 250 West 94th is glutted, and will produce one or two shocking prices.

thanks for the heads-up on the orsid listing, wonder what it went for. i'd be curious to know why 12E will "never trade." the sellers are totally unmotivated? as for 250 west 94th, i wonder if they have discovered a cancer cluster or something and everyone wants to get out immediately. 3 apartments for sale in one line? brutal.

Not my neighborhood, but I wonder what you all think of this place:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/363212-condo-40-west-55th-street-midtown-new-york

Now listing for less than seller paid in 2006. High monthlies, but looks nice. Anyone know the (Candela) building?

tina,

heart of midtown is right! 55th between 5th and 6th?!?! not exactly residential. a couple of red flags with the listing. first, the curtains are drawn in every single picture. are the views horribly unattractive and/or closed in? second, that location, IMHO, is ripe for major reductions. the midtown housing market has had huge support from europeans and pied a terre types. those people are disappearing faster than managing directors at morgan stanley. i don't see how an apartment like this warrants over 1000 psf any more.

Can't really comment on the apartment, except for that the kitchen needs updating and it seems very overpriced in today's market. The bigger problem is the neighborhood. You are in the middle of tourist tangles, with nary a corner deli, friendly diner or local pub for miles. I considered that area since it would be conveient for work and then realized I would hate it on weekends and my friends would be more likely to visit if I moved to Washington Heights or New Jersey.

FYI... I haven't posted on this b/c I don't want to sully it. This is my favorite thread and is a real gauge of the market trends with very insightful opinions. Keep it going :)

200 West End Avenue, "F" line, floors 15-17 (identical interiors; #15F adds a large terrace):
--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
12/30/2008 #16F $3,915,000 -14.8% |↑ $4,595,000 Sold 4 beds 3.5 baths 2,830 ft²
05/28/2008 #17F $4,709,000 .................. | -
05/01/2008 #15F $4,850,000 .................. | -

No contract dates are available, so I don't know the timing on the drop from #17F to #16F (about 16% after allowing for a one-floor differential). IIRC, #16F went to contract about two months ago.

If my calculations are correct, here is a t/b combined 11 room apartment in a prime UWS building and location that just traded for $913/square foot. WOW!!!! Is this the new reality for big apartments in prime buildings on the UWS? Add in an $800K renovation, and you're still only paying $1,100/sq. foot, which seems to me to be like 2004/2005 pricing. I think this is a fairly significant transaction for UWS family apartment dwellers. Could it be that large apartments trade for LESS than smaller spaces since family buyers flush with cash and the ability to get mortgages have disappeared? This would be a real bummer for people who recently bought out their neighbors thinking that 1+1=3, when that formula may have changed. Could 1+1=1.5?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/188862-coop-50-riverside-drive-upper-west-side-new-york

mrsblogs, and that's just the asking price. It could easily be 10-15% below that. That apt. is so big the floorplan gives me a headache.

MrsB: From your keyboard to Gods ears. I have blogged many times about price compression as size gets scaled up. Most don't think it will happen, never had anyone agree with me. I think this is one of the first to really see it happen. I don't think it will get to the point where a previously combined unit will have more economic value to break the units apart again. BUT, that would be very sexy indeed!

Here's an interesting comp in my neighborhood:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/230235-coop-170-second-avenue-east-village-new-york
Ask appears to have keyed from the January 08 comp 2 floors higher, which closed for $1.567 mil. Now after a bunch of haircuts, the 8th floor listing is priced well below the $1.3 mil closing in 2006 for 9D. That's a $170k difference, which seems like it could cover a very nice renovation. Judging solely from the pictures, I'd say this needs some work but hard to say how much. Considering that they the listing says "Make an offer,must sell, family illness" I'd bet there's still a ways for this to drop. Wish I had the cash to make a lowball offer!

all the east views including the bedroom on that listing are probably lot line windows

Jason, in the East Village, if you can see the water, you're almost certainly not in a nice area, and that building is taller than average for this nabe. The views may not be spectacular, but they're probably fine. It's a fair comp.

i like that building. i lived on that block a long time ago. but i thought it was next to a parking garage which is why lot line windows would concern me.

No, it isn't next to the parking garage. I think I know the one you're speaking of, and it's further down the block. Here's a link to the google maps street view; you can see how much taller that building is than its neighbors:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=170+2nd+Ave,+New+York,+New+York,+New+York+10003&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.149289,70.400391&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=Ffp9bQIdvQ-X-w&z=16&g=170+2nd+Ave,+New+York,+New+York,+New+York+10003&iwloc=addr&layer=c&cbll=40.73022,-73.986014&panoid=gLU63Y1pES3gmZ70hwdlAA&cbp=12,134.27616014975553,,0,-53.837557127712714

Wow. That's a long link! But you can see there's no parking garage nearby and that it is taller than its neighbors. Generally if you're above 5 floors in the east village, you're going to have decent views.

mrsblogs,

it's not that 1+1 now equals 1.5 instead of 3. It's that what used to be 1 is now .75, and .75+.75 is now 1.5. Get the difference. I think there has been some compression for large apartments, but just as large a factor is the overall downward movement. i'd also add that i think you are vastly overstating the renovation cost on this. particularly if you can snag that piece of hallway between the two doorways, these apartments combine very, very easily. the only combining that has to be done, it seems to me, is the removal of the wall between the two living rooms, the creation of a hallway above them, and the removal of the smaller kitchen in order to expand the bathroom attached to it and create some storage space. aside from that, you are just looking at normal renovation, so if the apartments are in decent shape (at least one of them appears to be renovated) you should be ok.

this is an apartment in one of, what the top 5 buildings on RSD? Top 25 on the UWS? what i mean to say is this is not a run of the mill nice building. it's a great building, a great apartment. this is a highly significant sale, no doubt about it. i think that apartment is superior, for instance, to the low floor units about the same size on the market at 300 west end (another top uws building) which are on the market for between 4.1 and 5.5.

ev,

that's a great building, probably my personal favorite in the east village. and you're right that it shows movement. still, i think that apartment has a ways to go. that was a really bubbly sale on the comp you showed, and this is just an average-sized 2 bedroom that needs work. this is 2nd avenue, not the gold coast. i would not be shocked to see it go for well under a million.

yes I DO know it hasn't closed yet, but this is movement on the asking price, which I thought also relevant:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/300728-coop-270-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

Shows this apartment offered @ $2,649,000 down from an original asking price of $3.3mn back in June. Well, they're having an open house today, after being dormant for a few months and guess what . . .

http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/detail/56-904814/upper-west-side-new-york-ny-usa/OPEN-HOUSE-alt/0-4000000-price/PRICE-HIGH-sort/10-p/185-1490075--56-966789--185-1176142--56-904814--56-920599--87-860123--80-1071300--56-942967--46-1046716--56-977552-ls/211-t

Is now offered @ $2,450,000

Down 26% on the asking price since the first listing . . . I always thot it looked like a nice kitchen but the rest of the spaces were too small for us so have not actually gone to see it.

liquidpaper,

thanks for pointing out the most recent cut, but you can't comp an apartment to its original asking price. you have to comp the current asking price to an actual sale. fortunately, in this case that is easy to do:

this apartment is a combination of two E-line units--11E and 12E, to be exact. these units, along with 12W, sold for $5.3 million in 2005. unfortunately, we don't know if they were combined at the time, and we don't know the value of 12W. but we have several other e-line comps in the building to fill in the gaps:

03/07/2007 #7E $1,450,000 -3.0% $1,495,000 ↓ 2 beds 2 baths 1,400 ft²
01/11/2006 #9E $1,710,000
04/28/2005 #3E $1,050,000
03/02/2005 #10E $1,400,000

the peak comp for the E line was from january 2006, when 9E sold for $1.710 million. If we simply double that, we get $3.42, which is more or less the initial asking price for the combination. or if you prefer to use the most recent comp, 7e, that gets you to 2.9 for the combination. since in general you would expect a premium for the larger unit (otherwise why combine) this looks to me like a 35% cut from an estimated peak comp.

so what is going on here? a few things are possible. 1. the condition of the overall market as worsened, 2. the premium for larger apartments has shrunken or disappeared, or 3. there is something wrong with this apartment.

in this case, i think all of the above are partially responsible. obviously the market has come down. i believe that there is price compression taking place between large and small apartments. but i also think that this is a particularly bad combination. first, those wooden walls and ceilings will only appeal to a very specific set of people; they really shrink your pool of buyers. if you want to expand to include people who don't want to feel like they are living in a modernist adirondack cabin, you have to price in the cost of ripping them out. even worse, the size and placement of the staircase. liquidpaper comments that the spaces are too small for him to consider the apartment. but how can that be? this is a 2800 square foot three bedroom apartment, with 1400 square feet dedicated to kitchen, living room, dining room, and one small bathroom. How can that only provide space for a 14x15 living room--actually SMALLER than the living rooms in the uncombined units? That idiotic staircase takes up over 200 square feet on each floor for a total of around 450 square feet of the apartment lost to staircase. it takes up nearly half of what should have been an expansive living room. this totally wrecks the flow and layout of the apartment and really does make the spaces too small. so i think this apartment is in real trouble.

I should have added: exorbitant maintenance.

happyrenter: i remembered the maintenance issue after I posted. was going to repost but got caught up in making coffee. i have only been reading & using streeteasy for about a week, but it has made me determined to wait a bit before making an offet, and we were pretty close to at least lowballing when I stumbled onto the site.

I'd still like to buy a place in the next year, but I think best to wait a bit and see how things shake out in the wake of wall st.

Bad, bad combination. They took 2 5-room apartments and turned it into a smallish 3-bedroom. IMO, they should have used the maid's room (not that usable at 5X10) and used that for the staircase. If they'd done they would have been left with 4 large rooms on each floor. Ample space for 4 bedrooms on 1 floor, and a large living room, dining room, EIK and a library on the other floor.

wow, when you start poking around it just takes no time at all to find apartments that are going to face enormous price cuts to find buyer. look at apartment 8N. this apartment is significantly less desirable than the previously-discussed combination apartment at 50 riverside. it is smaller, has a worse layout, is in a marginally less prime location, and is in a significantly less coveted building. and yet it asks 45% more than 50 riverside did.

we are headed into real bloodbath territory.

happyrenter, great analysis, as usual. Far as I can tell, the owner also has the penthouse and maybe combined 12W with that. 12E could've been intended as just a big dining room and kitchen, with kids down in 11E, and living and main bed rooms in 12W and the PH. Anyway, I'm a sucker for this quirky/architectural/resale-be-damned kind of place, so will stop by to look. The broker also has http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/304977-coop-246-west-end-avenue-lincoln-square-new-york, and I want to find out why it's been in contract for five months.

err . . .

if we're looking for overpriced large apartments on the UWS I'd toss this one into the mix . . .

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/60405-coop-6-west-77th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

There's also one for $21mn @ Kenilworth but I think that must be some weird listing where they have to have it offered but don't want to sell as they keep RAISING their asking price.

There are others but I don't want to veer too far off the original thread unless it's of interest to people reading here

Slightly off-topic, but the price appreciation between 2004 and 2007, esp. for family sized apts, was tremendous. Check out these transactions:

246 West End Avenue, "Edwardian" prewar so it has higher ceilings than 20s/30s buildings:
Apts 10B(1 bedroom) and 10C(2 bedroom) sold for 475k and 925k.

After combination and renovation, sold for 3.85m in spring of '07 (went to contract very quickly from what I remember).

Lest one thinks that was an outlier, Apt 4BC sold for 3.7m in spring '08, before Bear but after
the stock market started tanking.

Hmm. It's not that far fetched to think that a generous 3-bedroom apartment (EIK, LR, DR) in a good school district, UWS can sell for 1.5m. Because that would only take you back to '04.

I've seen the 270 West End duplex, and IMO, the cure is to rip out the offending staircase and start again so you get at least 4 bedrooms out of it.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/228203-coop-55-east-9th-street-greenwich-village-new-york

3A sold for 680k in Nov., 2008

12A sold for 511k in Feb. 2006.

34% appreciation in less than 2 years, not counting the 9 floor advantage of 12A.

You guys are all UWS focused. The schools are lousy in District 3. I suspect that is one reason bad combo "family" apartments there are sagging.

nyc10023, the 10BC combination has four bedrooms, while the 4BC has three. Don't know how much to factor in for that. (10BC took half the B living room for the fourth bedroom. 4BC used that space for dining area and the other half for a bigger kitchen.)

There are 2 okay public schools in D3, same as the Village. PS199 & 87 vs. PS3 and 41. There is also G&T at PS9 and 166, most of the students in the G&T now live in zone as well. PS9 general is getting better all the time.

4BC v. 10BC - I am surprised at the price they got for 4BC considering that it had one fewer bedroom. Nevertheless, the fact remains that apartments purchased for 1.5m or less(4BC was purchased prior to 10BC and before co-op prices made public) were worth north of 3.5m 3 years later. Even including a million dollar renovation (doubt they spent that much), that's a huge profit.

10023 - Middle schools in D3 are lousy.

True, but most middle schools in Manhattan suck. I think the premium is paid, RE-wise, for the 6 years of okay elementary schooling.