roommate vs subleter

This sounds wonky. If you are living in the space with the friend then by definition that should be considered a roommate. (It's a completely different story if you moved elsewhere and installed your friend in the unit). So what if said roommate is helping pay the bills? I think your mgmt is trying to pull a fast one. You're allowed to have a roommate and I don't believe it is any of the co-op's business whether that roommate is contributing to your outlay.

There has been much case law about this. And really, it seems as though, if a claim is brought, it really just depends on the circumstances (and what kind of lawyer you have).

http://www.brickunderground.com/blog/2010/09/ask_an_expert_do_i_need_board_approval_to_take_in_a_paying_roommate

Generally, it is accepted that you CAN collect rent, but don't be surprised if your board gets pissy and brings a suit against you. Be prepared to hire an attorney:

"Because there is nothing in the law that prohibits financial arrangements between the tenant and
the roommate, a shareholder may arguably utilize the occupancy rights granted by the Roommate Law
while enjoying the financial benefit of collecting rent from the roommate."
https://www.stroock.com/SiteFiles/Pub1361.pdf

Also see here, as it adds ammunition to the idea that, yes, you are allowed to charge a subletter (subtenant). [It also provides some entertainment in the form of jimmyboy, or "jim_hones10", getting schooled and taught a thing or two in the most comical of ways]:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/36173-co-op-sublease-additional-roommate

Keep in mind, in order for this all to be as legit as it can be, YOU must live in the apartment as your PRIMARY RESIDENCE for as long as the roommate is there (paying you or not).

Best of luck,
:)

Sonya is right.

As a co-op board president I can attest that it would be extremely difficult to ascertain whether one of our shareholders is collecting rent from a "roommate".

Thanks Matty!!

[Although, interesting how in that VERY post I linked to RIGHT ABOVE, you went kicking and screaming saying how I was wrong about this issue. Remember that, Matty? Remember, "We've done it. It was disputed. We won."? Remember? How everyone else including myself said you were wrong? Then proved it via law? And how you couldn't come up with a single piece of anything to substantiate your claims? You quickly and quietly disappeared from that discussion, though. Oh, how quickly we forget. Glad to see that you've come around in the last 4 months or so. And kudos on getting another "As a co-op board president" in there!]

Cheers!

Hi Sonya, Matt and Squid, thanks for your advice.

Matt, since you sit in coop board (I know the board might be different in different building.) In my building, every roommate will be interviewed by the board, so the board will ask said roommate if he/she will pay me rent. It will be difficult to lie coz I will have an agreement with my roommate showing the rent payment schedule. So the board will know my roommate will pay me rent and the amount. So they will consider it as sublet even though I live in the apartment. in that case, They will charge the roommate over $1000 application fees, charge me 20% of my ANNUAL MAINTENANCE fee which will be increase by 20% annually. All those do not make sense at all. I am wondering if you or any of guys here heard of it. I think the common sense is to report to the board 30 days or 60 days before I have a roommate moving in, it's fine to let the board know who live in the building. But does the board have the right to interview the roommate( decide who will be eligible to live with me) and know how much he/she will pay me and then put me and my friend into complex sublet process?

Does anyone know any good attorney that I can got solid answer for that?

Thanks

why not say they are your boyfriend/girlfriend?

if you're roommate changes yearly from old to young, dude to chick, say you have an eclectic taste...

Lol, hol4, doesn't matter what identity of the "roommate", even if he is your bf, still follow the same process.

@charcheng,
"In my building, every roommate will be interviewed by the board,"
This is illegal. More specifically, it is illegal to REQUIRE the roommate to have an interview. The board can request (or "demand") it, but it is against NYS law to forbid the roommate entry because the board wanted an interview. Most people don't know the law, and as such, just do what the board says. [I'm SURE that where Matt lives, the tenants are clueless about this].

"so the board will ask said roommate if he/she will pay me rent"
If the roommate agrees to be interviewed, it is polite not to lie. They can, but doing so may come back and bite them in the future. This is a personal judgement call. (A solution in such a situation might be, when asked if they will pay rent, they say no. They move in rent free for a couple of months. Your financial situation changes. Then they start paying you rent.)

"So they will consider it as sublet even though I live in the apartment."
The co-op board can consider it whatever they want. They can say it's you butler if they want to. In the eyes of the law however (which a co-op cannot supersede), the additional person is a roommate. A co-op board, just like any private corporation, cannot go against state law.

"They will charge the roommate over $1000 application fees, charge me 20% of my ANNUAL MAINTENANCE fee which will be increase by 20% annually."
Most likely, they will likely charge you -- or at least, more easily. Should this case ever go to court, it would be difficult for them to charge the roommate in a legitimate sense, as they are not on the proprietary lease. It would be like you having a visitor stay for a week, and later on in court, the coop board demanding that they pay 1/4 month's charges. It would be much easier to just charge you somehow (ie, co-ops that allow subletting -- real subletting -- often have it written into their by-laws that you must pay an additional percentage while you sublet).

"I am wondering if you or any of guys here heard of it."
I have heard of such scare tactics, yes. That's what they are.

"I think the common sense is to report to the board 30 days or 60 days before I have a roommate moving in, it's fine to let the board know who live in the building."
I agree. It is the polite, responsible thing to do. A reasonable board will respect you for that. That is as far as it goes. If they insist on an interview, refer them to NY State Real Property Law Sec. 235 subsection F.

"But does the board have the right to interview the roommate"
Yes, they do have the right to do an interview. But they don't have the right to REQUIRE an interview.

"Does anyone know any good attorney that I can got solid answer for that?"
Unfortunately, I don't. But there are many good tenant layers, if you ask here, someone may point you in the right direction.

Think of this person like a spouse. If you buy an apartment, then get married next year, then you both naturally start paying the bills, that's basically helping to pay maintenance. You may not call it "rent" but that's what it's doing.

In the meantime, here is some reading. Become as knowledgeable about this as you can on your own. You will be better equipped should the coop board come snooping or questioning.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/RPP/7/235-f

http://apartments.about.com/od/newyork/qt/newyorkroommatelaw.htm

http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=gerald_lebovits

Why are you even telling the board you're taking on a "roommate"?

It's a boyfriend. Or girlfriend. Or partner. Or whatever. Period. End of discussion.

sonya D.. are you a board member, realtor, lawyer, etc or just informed tenant/owner?

appreciate the responses, just figuring out your background/angle thanks ciao.

NYC Matt : You claimed -- vociferously -- that the Times Square bomber was a government sponsored hoax. Care to update us on that ?

The point being that Matt gets carried away with things sometimes ......

hol4,
No angle here. Just helping out a streeteasy member with a question.

reallynow,
"carried away"? More like, "speaks from the posterior." ;)

Sonya, Appreciate a lot for your detailed clear responses. You shed light on some confusions I have. Very kind of you.

As of now, if anyone knows good tenant lawyer who had experience on such case that could refer to me, that will be very very helpful. Thanks

OOh, also even if I finally have my roommate living in, the board only approves for 1 year, after 1 year, the application of extension has to be submitted again to get approval. Don't really understand what's meaningfulness for this approval either.

charcheng,
I am not sure if you are understanding this. The board cannot "approve" anything. It's not their responsibility or duty to. They don't approve anything before moving in, they don't approve anything after they have moved in. They did that with YOU already (the shareholder) and that's it. As a shareholder, YOU have an obligation to the corporation, not a roommate. They might say it's their "policy" or its in their bylaws, but just as if their bylaws read: "you must rob a jewelry store before you can move in," that would be made moot, as the law deems it illegal.

A coop board will make things seem legit. Even if something seems a certain way, make sure you know the facts, they will definitely help you in this situation.

If you are living in the apartment, the co-op board has no control over who lives with you. Period. I'm not sure why this is even an issue.

By the way, Sonia, I have not done a turnaround on my original comments. If the OP were in the process of BUYING the apartment, was seeking board approval, and needed a "roommate" to help pay the mortgage and maintenance, then there would have been an issue.

Now that OP is already in the apartment, there is no need for "approval" from the board of any kind unless we're talking about a sublet situation, or transfer of ownership of sales vis-a-vis a marriage or divorce.

LOL, suuuuure Matty, whatever you say! ;)

(remember this? "Sorry, but co-ops are exempt from the "roommate" provision of the "Real Property Law"." -NYCMatt, about 4 months ago).

Oh, how quickly we forget... the turnarounds...

Thanks Matt and Sonya. I am with you, I also don't know why having whom living with me is an issue in an coop building. So much headache. The door man remembers all people who live in the building (a small building), if I don't tell the board who will live with me, my roommate will be caught by door man anyway. I was told even if boyfriend, girlfriend or family member will live with me, the board asks the same process as roommate approval process. You can't get away from them. Same as you, have no idea why they have such rigid policy. Thanks for all your valuable comments. I will see how it goes. hopefully know some tenant attorney just in case.

If the doorman or anyone else "catches" the roommate, it would be the same if they "caught" you entering with a bag of groceries. Its perfectly fine. In fact, it's THEM breaking the rules (law), not you.

You don't have to get away from them, you're a paying shareholder... THEY have to abide by YOUR rights, in accordance with the law.

:)

when I was on a coop board this issue came up and we were told by our attorney if the shareholder claimed that the roomate was a lover that there was nothing that could be done and that it was not worth fighting about.

Ha, as if the law cares how the two *feel* romantically about each other.

Hi Sonya_D

Wow...Really? the "love" factor will determine the decision? so legally the definition of "lover " should be specified. lol.
Sonya, I am 100% with your opinion. I need an attorney to fight with my board just in case. I don't think i can deal with them by myself.

char cheng!

charcheng,
Ha, no way (in case my sarcasm didn't come across via the discussion board:).

An attorney is a good thing to have waiting in the wings, just in case. However, if you get to know the people on your board, I find it best to reason with them personally, if at all possible. You will be the best judge of how feasible that is. I believe explaining things in a calm and diplomatic manner always yields the best results. Of course, some people are just difficult and stubborn, and in such cases, a lawyer is needed. I look at this as a last resort method though -- things can get ugly, and no one wants that.

Good luck and keep us posted :)