building at 22 River Terrace

Used to live there in an 'A' unit. Rent was 3350 a month for a 1 bedroom. Was there for 2011 and 2012.
Laundry room is great. Lots of machines and anything broken they get it fixed pretty fast and doesn't really close either.
Security is a bit of a joke though since lots of turnover..pretty much anybody can come and go.

Building is going condo, curious what people think of the prices they are asking for each unit. They are pricing higher than the Riverhouse.

Those are very vanilla units, curious what the Condo plan is for any conversions or layout changes...etc. I lived in a Q line 1BR for 3 years in 2006-2009 facing teardrop park. Very friendly staff and liked the building as a rental. They'll have to do some major renovations to make those desirable high end condo units.

Apartments are being sold as is.

@bpc28 - how do you know about it? Where are the listing for the apartments (22 River Ter)?

Where did you get the information that apartment are being sold? the management only recently applied for condo conversion and AFAIK it takes months to get approval. It would be outright illegal to sell units.

I currently Perseid in the building and am concerned how it will play out when my lease ends.

The prices are crazily high. I doubt that they will sell any of the units at those prices (even with the insider's discount).

They sent out a preliminary offering to all tenants at the beginning of January. It takes at least 120 days to be approved---after that happens i believe you have 90 days to decide if you want to purchase your apartment.

Seems like the 3rd floor of the building is completely empty. Are they not renewing leases anymore? What's going on?

they filed a permit application to remove non load bearing walls, floors, fixtures etc so sounds like they are renovating---was filed for floors 3,26, and 27 (those floors are empty). Leases that are being renewed have a clause that they can terminate your lease with 90 day notice.

Starting in Feb, leases are no longer being renewed.

Some tenants have received 90-day notice. If they move out before the 90-day notice ends, they will still have to pay rent. Owners' intention is to kick everyone out before they get the approval for the conversion, so they can renovate and sell at higher prices. No one will be able to buy at insiders' prices, except for maybe the lucky few whose original leases end in July or August without the kick-out clause (before building got sold).

Has anybody else gotten the letter tonight from 22 River Tenants Association on the issue of tenants' rights? Can't find the Facebook page mentioned in the letter.

search just River Terrace Tenants

Curious how sales are going at 212 Warren St and what people think of the conversion. Thanks

BPC is over, sorry.

that is really helpful thanks

Not sure what the "BPC is over" comment means, but I thought the sales office (which shows what the units would look like) is very nice. The finishes are much better than those at the RiverHouse. Based on comments I have heard from different people, sales seems to be going fine. I know of a few people who either have bought or are considering buying.

curiousbpc - Units are nice, finishes are great, biggest risk here is the ground release. Resets in 2021 to market value so common charges may go up substantially.

I was interested in finding out more about the terms of the land lease here. Veronica, how do you know it resets in 2021? That's only 7 years away and I'm surprised they haven't renegotiated it.

Developer knows best why it's not been renegotiated, maybe doesn't really matter for the $5mm+ all cash buyers!

The lease ends in 2069. There's no reason for the Battery Park City Authority, which itself leases the land from the state, to renegotiate anything.

>The lease ends in 2069.

In the long run we'll all be dead. Except for the Waltons.

Check the offering plan, maybe call the Battery Park City Authority.

Lease ends in 2069 but BPCA should be ok extending the lease at a market rate. Problem is market rate also gets reset every 15-20 years through 2069 with the next reset in 2021, so there may be a large increase in ground lease payments in 2021.

Agree. The terms are outlined on page 9. http://batteryparkcity.org/new/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2013-Bond-Offering-Series-A.pdf

Land lease on a land fill. That feels secure. Seems like it they wanted to negotiate hardball, they could actually threaten to remove the land unless you pay up.
No thanks

Landlease is not for everyone, but that is why BPC is at a discount on per sq ft basis to say 200 Chambers and 101 Warren. I have been living here 20+ years as renter precisely because I have been wary of the landlease, and yet and I can tell you that the price has been going up over the last 20+ years, and I wish I had bought 20+ years ago. The neighborhood is getting better, not worse, and as the rest of the city gets more and more expensive, it seems more and more people don't mind the higher common charge. Even then, the rate reset can be negotiated - a lot of buildings on the south side were able to renegotiate the rates a few years back such that the increase was reasonable.

I doubt it is a problem in Battery Park City, but in some cases a ground lease can make mortgage lenders skittish, even those with big remaining terms.

I don't think BPC ground lease is a problem for lenders - major lenders have been doing it. I am told some buildings on the south side have started down the path of negotiating to extend the lease beyond 2069.

They can take your land away. Then your building becomes like the floating Rikers barge.

Say what you want but reality is BPC ground lease generates huge revenue for the city. Why would they take that away...

fieldchester - it's in nobody's interest to take the land away - taking the land away simply destroys value. prior examples of ground lease situations in nyc (trump plaza, carnegie house) have resulted in one of three outcomes that are better than letting lease expire (1) extend lease at "market rate" (2) sell to a third party at "market value" (3) sell to the building at "market value".

The problem is not lenders either. All parties will negotiate and extend lease with more than 30 years left for sure, especially in this case because NYC will want to protect property values (which will fall if banks don't lend) and therefore property taxes.

The issue is knowing and being comfortable with what you are actually paying for the unit. Paying $1500 per square foot for the unit is comparable to approximately $2000 per square foot if the unit owned the land (e.g. in Tribeca) i.e. if BPCA said they want to sell the land (and they'd have to sell at market value), the condo owners would likely have to pay about $500 per square foot. This is a very broad approximation, but works because (1) slightly below comps for recent average buildable land sales due to encumbrance of existing property on land (2) brokers have mentioned that land lease buildings should trade at 20-30% below buildings that own land (3) NYC also typically ascribes 20-30% of property value to land in property tax calculation.

So, are you comfortable buying at "effectively" $2000 per square foot? You could probably get cheaper units elsewhere, but then these are nice, new buildings with luxury condo finishes, next to the water and parks, great quality of life at a lower initial price vs units that own land. In terms of quality, NYC for example assesses BPC buildings 20% higher for property tax than some of the office to condo conversions in FiDi. 200 Chambers is a similar quality building that owns the land, units there are likely $1800-2000 per sq ft. So what you are prepared to pay for quality is entirely your call, just make sure you know what you might "effectively" be paying. Maybe UWS at $1500 per sq ft with the land ownership is better. Maybe Jersey City at $1000 per sq ft and a car parking spot and Manhattan views is better. Your call.

Last comment (sorry for the lengthy post). Currently, it may be that BPCA is charging ground lease payments much below "market rent" resulting in huge property value appreciation for BPC and surrounding areas. For example, 200 Rector which is a 600,000 sq ft building is paying only $1.6mm per year growing at 3% per year (renegotiated recently and implying land market value per square foot of $1,600,000 / (6% - 3%) / 600,000 = $88 per square foot. Can also confirm this ground lease rent is low by comparing with other private market ground leases comps in NYC. So (1) BPCA may be creating value for BPCA condo owners (any vested interest here?) (2) BPCA extending ground lease subsidy (if one exists) to affordable housing such as Gateway is ok, but to private market condos? (3) if you believe BPCA will continue this subsidy (if one exists), you are "effectively" buying the $1500 per sq ft apartment at $1588 per sq ft. Does that make you want to buy? What if BPCA suddenly stops this subsidy (if one exists)?

498 west end avenue in UWS is a comparable luxury property selling at $2000 per square foot (presumably owns the land). They'd have to rent for above $80 per square foot to justify even Manhattan's super steep 25x rent multiple - wow!

Carnegie House acquired their land for $185 million (supposedly $1000 per square foot); a Werner-led group acquired land below 301 east 63rd for $285 million ($750 per square foot).

The land under 200 Rector therefore is worth (conservatively at $500 per square foot) about $300 million (600,000 square feet). Since ground rent is supposed to be 6% of market value, the lease rate should be $18 million per year; BPCA leases for under $2mm per year. Am I missing something?

Also land appreciates over time while building depreciates over time. Land + building is the total return most retail investors see as real estate return. Most of the real estate return is from the land, not the building.

So if you can get the land from BPCA at $500 per square foot, then buy the property for $1500 per square foot. Or buy the property at $1500 per square foot and pray that BPCA continues to lease the land at below market rates (to the detriment of the NYC taxpayer?). Because the third scenario – buy the property at $1500 per square foot and BPCA increases the land lease to market rates (or sells the land to a private investor who increases the land lease to market rates) could be a terrible outcome.

>fieldchester - it's in nobody's interest to take the land away

Maybe not, but who is most least interested in taking the land away, and who is least least interested in taking the land away? Study game theory. Or watch War of the Roses ... Danny DeVito, Kathleen Turner, and that old dude with herpes in his throat who sent his kid away to jail... good movie, and shows what people will do...

Veronica- there is no way BPCA will sell the land to private investor because BPC is the golden goose generating tons of $$ for the city year after year. I very much doubt that BPCA will increase the lease to market rate because Goldman Sachs will threaten to leave. Goldman Sachs owns their building and the hotel next to it. If anything, GS got a big discount to be in BPC. Do you think that BPCA would give GS a big discount and then stick it to the residential owners? If you don't like land lease, fine. No need to spread FUD. If BPC didn't have land lease, the condos would be worth a lot more than $2000 per sq ft, given the quality of life in this neighborhood. Part of the high common charge is to pay for the parks and the programs for kids, etc... Where else do kids have tons of parks and ball fields right outside their door? Where else do kids can draw on grass and have bike races in summer ? People who live here - rent or own - stay for years because it is a community that they love. Pls if you hate BPC, fine, go away.

Do any of you all currently live in north BPC? I am considering buying a Condo at River & Warren (the old 22 River Terrace) and I'm trying to weigh all the pros (great for families, booming area, lower priced condos) with the cons (landlease situation, higher monthly fees). ANY HELP IS APPRECIATED!!

Wouldn't you rather live in New York?

I've been a resident in BPC for over 15 years. Some buildings like the one I live in have very reasonable common charges and taxes. I have a one bedroom facing the river and my total carrying costs including taxes come to about $1400.00.

That said as a mortgage broker banks are lending here, no problem to get financing including jumbo loans. Streeteasy in its latest real estate report has designated BPC one of the hottest neighborhoods in the city.

Akp _bpc, would be happy to be your buyers broker. Or feel free to email me with any questions.

Ellen Silverman
Licensed Mortgage Broker since 1990, NMLS # 60631
Licensed Real Estate Broker since 1987
esfundingco@aol.com
www.esfundingco@aol.com

Akp _bpc, would be happy to be your buyers broker. Or feel free to email me with any questions.

Ellen Silverman
Licensed Mortgage Broker since 1990, NMLS # 60631
Licensed Real Estate Broker since 1987
esfundingco@aol.com
www.esfundingco@aol.com

I'm a BPC resident. It is wonderful in many ways. Of course, it also has drawbacks. But do let's stop the nonsense of somehow trying to paint a land-lease as a positive. It isn't a positive in any way, and never will be.

You can pay a buyer's broker for the apartment, and then pay a rental broker fee on the land!

My mistake, the buyer's broker part is free.