Help!!!! Should we buy this BPC condominium? All opinions welcome.

How long do you plan to stay? Does it have room for future children - even if you're currently not planning on having any?

I, personally, do not like the area from an investment perspective. But if you love it, can afford it and see staying there..why not? But, just the fact that you're asking points to doubts.

As a Tribeca resident, (snarkily) I have to say that I really love the park, and I thank all of the fine people of BPC who pay for me to use it.

It all depends really on what is important to you and if you love the location so much that you are willing to sacrfice value appreciation for that. The PILOT and other fees have been known to be extremely erratic in BPC, especially in tough economic times, so one thing is for sure, your costs will go up and they will always act to suppress the capital gains that the market as a whole may incur.

From a purely financial perspective, i would say it is not the best investment, but as a home, that is a very different call. One thing is for sure -- if you really love BPC you can rent there much cheaper than own (stevejhx will love that!)

See how much cheaper or not it would be for you to rent one of those rentals rather than buy one of the buyables. That seems to me the way to look at it.

Others have made the important points about investment values and deciding how important it is for you to live right in BPC for some reason.

If you're buying in BPC to "save money", you probably won't. Cross West St. into the Financial District and you'll find units that have somewhat higher asking prices, but maybe 10-20% lower total monthly costs once you add up mortgage + common charges + taxes (and you end up with newer, nicer units). The only reason to buy in BPC would be if you didn't have enough cash to make a downpayment on a unit elsewhere that would ultimately have lower monthly costs. If this is the case, I'd strongly recommend that you rent and save some more money.

Also keep in mind that if you pay the AMT, real estate taxes are generally not tax deductible.

I think there are no RE taxes in BPC b/c it's a ground lease owned by NYS, and the ground lease is payable in lieu of RE tax. (Pretty sure.) I don't know if it's deductible, but I do know that it's one reason why BCP is cheaper than elsewhere: those fees will be there forever, and they're very high.

On the positive side some of the views are very nice. On the negative side it's very cold and windy in the winter, and veeeerrry far from the subway.

There's two distinct issues that make BPC expensive:

- As Steve mentions, all of the buildings are land-lease so the common charges tend to be high because they have to cover the ground lease as well as the usual charges. This is negotiated far in advance and is fairly predictable as a result
- In addition, there's a "tax" (PILOT) that is payable directly by unit owners to the BPC Authority. As others have mentioned, this is both high and somewhat unpredictable. This is treated basically like a real estate tax, to the best of my (non-professional) knowledge.

The total of these two is generally considerably higher than the comparable common charges + real estate taxes in other parts of the city.

Plus it's very far from the subway.

look at the condops (co-ops with condo rules) they tend to be biggger in size, and less expensive. Also 10% down usually required. Not in BPC though.

You think you can get a bank to lend you money with just 10% down?

Unlikely.

Depends on how much the loan is for. I know at least two places that are still doing it for people with good credit, full doc, etc. for properties < $1M. Doing it for loans <= $729.5K should be even easier.

For a co-op loan? They're not subject to the new jumbo conforming limit.

Good point. I don't know anything about coop loans, so I have no clue.

coops are not 10% down in manhattan anyway - min 20%.

But not for condops, which theoretically only require 10% down, but for which you'd still have to get a coop loan. Maybe one of our friendly neighborhood mortgage-sellers will weigh in.

nice to see stevejhx hold authority over a conversation and about a subject he clearly does not understand.

Yes, all residences in Battery Park City make Payments in Lieu of Tax (PILOT), but it is essentially the same as NYC property tax. Fully tax deductible for many, but, frustratingly, not those caught up in AMT--welcome to the club).

As for subway access, i suppose it depends on where you live in BPC, but most lines are within a few minutes walk--certainly closer than if you lived on East End Ave or York on the UES or anything west of 9th Ave on the west side. In fairness, i guess I am biased because I love it here, but its one of the prettiest places to live in manhattan.

in re-reading the thread, and in fairness to stevejhx, i shouldn't have said he was holding authority over the conversation. it's just that steve, as a reader of streeteasy, it seems you weigh in on everything, whether you are knowledgeable about the subject or not, and usually in a negative way. I'm not trying to stir things up, but I do wonder why you feel compelled to comment on every discussion?

you can get 90% financing if your credit score is 680 or above. If it's bwn. 660 and 680, you may get 85% financing. Condops require 10% down, have no board approval and liberal rental policy. Even closing costs are much much less then in Condo.

bpcer, what did I post?

"I think there are no RE taxes in BPC b/c it's a ground lease owned by NYS, and the ground lease is payable in lieu of RE tax. (Pretty sure.) I don't know if it's deductible, but I do know that it's one reason why BCP is cheaper than elsewhere: those fees will be there forever, and they're very high."

What did you post?

"Yes, all residences in Battery Park City make Payments in Lieu of Tax (PILOT), but it is essentially the same as NYC property tax. Fully tax deductible for many, but, frustratingly, not those caught up in AMT--welcome to the club)."

What is the difference?

Indeed - I even got the "in lieu" part right.

Get a life.

Sorry, Steve. You were wrong. As I explained above, the ground lease is completely separate from the PILOT. Yes, both concepts exist, but it's incorrect to conflate them.

And, as bpcer points out, parts of BPC are reasonably close to the subway. The area around Rector Place, for example, is just two or three blocks from the 1 and the R, and slightly further to the 4/5.

Thanks for all the comments. They are very helpful. However, no one has addressed our concern about the fact tht most of the units have been retained these many years by the sponsor as rental units. Is that a very bad thing? Thanks again.

Oh jordyn! Which part of "Pretty sure" don't you understand? I'm sure that were we to go into further detail, we could find out even more, and bore the pants off of everybody.

fatrabbit, compare the rental price to the purchase price on similar units, check out the difference in carrying costs. There are a lot of buildings that are buy/rent and designed that way; others that the sponsor merely holds onto the units. Since it's a condo that shouldn't affect financing, but maybe you want to ask a bank what they think about it.

fatrabbit...are you buying in one of the Liberty buildings?? Liberty House, Liberty Terrace, Liberty Court or Liberty View?
These are approx. 40% owned by the Millstein family and rented out. They will be building the last two condo buildings in BPC right by the ballfields.
Make sure you read the financials of the building or have it thoroughly explained to you by your attorney.
Each individual building in BPC has a land lease that was individually negotiated. Some are much better than others and I have posted about this before. Most of the Liberty buildings are ok, Liberty House has the best financials.
BPC is a fabulous place to live...we've been owners for almost 15 yrs and recommend living here.

bpc is a great area if you're into soul-less high rises and breathtaking views of new jersey

and you love crossing the West Side Highway everyday and you love paying high maintenance fees.

I don't see any problems with sponsor holding on to the units and renting them out, as soon as he pays his portion of Common Charges for all his apartments.
With Condo's liberal polisy to rent, any condo in Manhattan can be close to 49% Not owner ocupied.

As PRADA said, check out financials of the building. Is there reserve fund? How big is it?

Elena
(broker)

Northern Battery Park

i love how 7 month old posts get bumped

I'm thinking of moving to BPC, on the northern end. I've lived in greenwich village / union square / flatiron area for almost 10 years and as I'm older, I'm tiring of this area, looking for a bit more quiet, plus I work downtown. Other alternatives would be some of Tribeca.

FatRabbit - The land lease rental payments are going to increase to fair market value for many of the buildings in 2010. It will increase the payments - in some cases - by 2x. The cc/taxes are already high so this will not bode well. Check with the terms of the land lease with your attorney. Make sure he is a good one.

Personally, I would stay away from BPC for this reason alone.