189 Bridge Street...thoughts on neighborhood?

Aren't the prices coming down yet? There are really no subways that are near, they actually have a shuttle to drop you to the subways or something like that. Or you can take the bus to the subway. Not cool.

Yeah, I don't see a neighborhood either. The area might start popping in a few years, I'd still hate to spend few years without one.

babsie02

"The broker said that in a few years that area is going to be hopping" That should sound the alarms.

That great so buy it in a few years when it's half the price. These brokers will say anything. Did they also tell you that the shuttle will stop once they sold all the units and there is nothing you can do about it unless you want to increase your CC's $500 extra month. My guess is that they left those parts out. Just walk away and wait ou the storm.

It does amaze me how many people are willing to gamble their life savings in this market and take the risk of buying in newly constructed buildings in areas that you can't go out after dark. I give all the credit to the NYC RE Marketing Machine.

That's my issue. The subway is a good walk and Flatbush is desolate. I passed on it but wondered what other people were thinking of that area.

babsie.

Reading through this thread, I felt compelled to offer a counter argument on behalf of this area (sometimes called Flatbush corridor or generally known as Albee Square. Cleanslate and dco apparently are the anti-Flatbush corridor contingent. I say this because both commented on the Toren discussion board, as well. and offered their criticism of the area. Of course they are entitled to their opinions and generally I welcome differing thoughts when they are based on a thorough knowledge of the area. Both, in my opinion, are very very shortsighted.

Let me start my discussion by saying I am a proud owner of the Toren. With that said, I am obviously biased. Before I purchased at the Toren, I visited all the Flatbush corridor skyscraper condos, including Bridgeview Tower.

Presently, I live in Brooklyn Heights, and love Brooklyn. Moving to Manhattan was not an option based on my personal preferrence towards Brooklyn and extremely high prices in Manhattan. (I grew up on the upper West Side) By purchasing in Brooklyn, I was getting the best of both world's, the boro I love and reduced prices. That said, I had to research where I wanted to live in this large borough. Coming from the Heights, I needed to be within walking distance of the promenade and restaurants on Henry which I have grown to love over my 26 years at my current address. (Noodle Pudding is my favorite) Not only do I love Brooklyn Heights, but I also have grown to appreciate DUMBO. Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill, Fort Greene, Park Slope and Carroll Gardens, and Smith Street in particular. In case you haven't noticed, I like to eat good food.

Given these parameters, I wanted a central location in which my investment, (purchasing a condo may be the largest investment in your portfolio) could grow. By that I mean, an area which was undeveloped but whose prospects were very good for future development. There are condo's available here in Brooklyn Heights but this area is mature thereby eliminating any potential growth due to new development. Same can be said for DUMBO (which 10 years ago would have fit the growth factor perfectly). Walentas was a visionary and capitalized on it handsomely. Park Slope is mature for the most part and the other contiguous areas are not secrets any more and consequently that is reflected in price.

The Flatbush corridor, on the other hand, is truly undeveloped and as you said, "desolate". Basically it is ugly and the layout as far as both vehicle and pedestrian traffic is embarrassing. Viola, just what I was looking for. I wanted a place that people like cleanslate would say, "I don't see a neighborhood", or dco saying "you can't go out after dark". It is that type of environment that investors and homeowners get the best possible deals.

Let's now turn over the rocks and see what the future holds for the Flatbush corridor. Firstly, the location is fantastic with respect to Manhattan. It is the major thoroughfare to the borough of Brooklyn, basically 5 minutes to Manhattan by car. Public transportation is also very convenient for most of the corridor excepting those developments closer to the bridge. For example. from the Oro, Toren and City Point the A train is a 5 minute walk through MetroTech, a nice walk aesthetically and the R, a 2 minute walk. Obviously, further down the corridor near the Forte, One Hansen, Rockwell there is the Atlantic Terminal hub. The city has a plan for pedestrian traffic which is laid out in the following link:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/dwn_bklyn_ped/dwn_bklyn_ped_foc5.shtml

With respect to Bridgeview Towers specifically, both cleanslate and dco's criticism may be warranted. It's location is not the greatest being sandwiched between the bridge traffic and BQE coupled with having no subway close by. I agree that the shuttle may be a temporary solution to help with difficult sales. Just look at the StreetEasy numbers and you can see that this development has fallen on hard times. The majority of the building, I believe, is rental. Not a good sign. Also, all their prices are heading downward and will probably continue in that direction for the foreseeable future. This is not an indictment of the Flatbush corridor as much as a mediocre product design and distance from public transportation. One point, in defense of their declining prices, their price points were too optimistic from the start. For example, if you look at the price points of the Toren, you will see that they have realistically calculated the current market environment. Just for comparison, look at the current sales/contracts out on the two condo developments and where one is after only 2 months and where the other is after 2 years. One apparently has a successful strategy whereas the other has no idea. By the way, just so I don't sound too pro Toren, I have noticed that the Oro has come down in price and my guess is that you can negotiate prices there down or maybe have your closing cost reduced. Same goes for BellTel. The Toren, on the other hand, has a good buzz and if anything, their "ask prices" are tending upward based on their 3rd Revised Offering Plan with respect to prices.

Let's take a quick look at the immediate area, for example, The BridgeView area. Right down the block, a new development at 235/277 Gold is still in the approval stage by Lazerian which is projected to have 300-500 condos. (I'll attached a link at the end so you can see renderings of these future developments). Also, a Karl Fischer tower development at 172 Nassau is planned. Demolition of site presently taking place. These towers should help as far as increasing pedestrian traffic in the area. Granted, I'm not as familiar with these developments as I am about developments in the immediate area of Toren so I can't predict as accurately when they will come to fruition. Point is, even down the corridor where Brideview is located, development is projected.

As you walk down the Flatbush corridor and get to Tillary, you will see the foundation being built for the FlatIron building. This interestingly designed building will be 21 stories and have 150,000 sq ft of retail space. Immediately across the street on Tillary will be the Hampton inn. They plan to build a limited-service 10-story, 120- to 140-room hotel on the site — (There are at least five Hampton Inns in Manhattan but none so far in Brooklyn.)

As you go further on Flatbush Ext. you come to the Oro (which by the way, appears to be reducing prices). Obviously, this is a 40 storied development bringing plenty of people to the area. The Oro II hasn't broken ground yet but it is just a matter of time considering the deal is signed and delivered with Hilton to start construction. They will be a Hilton Garden Inn and Homewood Suites. Structure will be very similar to Oro I but have different entrances for each hotel. Next to the Oro's I & ll will be Avalon Bay Luxury Condos, building size 44 floors. This is moving along nicely and should be completed in mid to late 2009. One thing that I like about Avalon Bay's building is the outdoor space being built next to the Oro. More greenery the better. Next up the line is the 38 stoied Toren which will be completed by June 09. Behind Toren you have 4 tower development by Catsimatidis in which he has already started on first tower on Myrtle and Ashland. Next on Flatbush, across the street, you will have the tallest building in Brooklyn, City Point. Adjacent to CityPoint will be a park, the size of Bryant in Manhattan, plus a triangular outdoor space directly across the Toren. Under the park will be a garage for 200+ cars. Also. almost completed is the Sheraton and Loft Hotel which will bound the park on the west side. remember, down the block from both these hotels will be Hotel Indigo, a boutique hotel that should be impressive. Behind the Sheraton is 384 Bridge which is a 49 storied condo, yes 49, mixed use tower. Add to this MetroTech and NYU expansion plus BellTel and LIU plus Rockwell, One Hanson and the new Nets stadium in 2010 and Schermerhorn completed condos, plus State street brownstones that are beautiful plus BAM's planned development and on and on.

I'm not a broker but I will tell you that the area will be a 24/7 locale with tons of retail and pedestrian traffic in 3-5 years. Everything I mentioned isn't a pipe dream, it is happening. Just walk around at watch the development. The fact that it looks lousy now is to your benefit not detriment. Now the price is reasonable and in near future some developments may be more reasonably priced.

If you are really serious, please read a long article I wrote under the tag name Karl. I have attached links to support everything I said here. The renderings are impressive. Skip the Toren propaganda. Obviously, I love the Toren otherwise I wouldn't have bought in. Skip that part. After reading that entire piece and reading attached links, you should have a better feel for what is in store for the area. Consider for a second all the money that is being put into this area for development. Do you really think all these hotels and real estate developers are idiots. Maybe cleanslate and dco think so but I surely don't. I'm sure they would have preferred a more robust economic environment but that creates buying opportunities for you and me. I'm not saying go out and jump on a condo now. Realistically, the condo market will probably decline over the next 12 month, though I predict the Toren will not suffer declines, unlike many of the surrounding developments. Just my opinion.

If you are really serious in buying in the area, I'd be happy to show you around the neighborhood and specifically point out the developments I mentioned. I have time now since I am retired. My new hobby is my fascination with Downtown Brooklyn and my daily walks in my new neighborhood.

Take care and good luck.

Almost forgot. Scroll down the attached link and look for my writing entitled "Toren and Downtown Brooklyn".

By the way, I have since been convinced to limit my enthusiasm for S.O.M. and let the building speak for itself. SOM is a big firm and being an architect from there doesn't guarantee results just like graduating from Harvard does not guarantee intellect.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=147216&page=4&highlight=toren

babsie,

Just returned from along walk starting at the RiverView. The immediate area around this development will take longer than 5 years, closer to 10, Not sure why anyone would consider living that separated from life forms. Not impressed with construction and development around the place is nonexistent. I have no idea when the 2 developments I mentioned earlier will start but doesn't appear to be in the near future.

Compare this area with Oro i, Oro ll, Avalon Bay, Toren, Ciity Point, Catsimatidis Red Apple Development and Metrotech and it is night and day. This area will be hopping in 5 years, but as much as hate to agree with dco, when he said "The broker said that in a few years that area is going to be hopping" That should sound the alarms." The immediate area around BridgeView will take time approximately 10 years IMHO. There are available lots but construction doesn't seem to be in the offering in the near future. Not a great location.

Good luck.

One building that I left out but should not be omitted, is the Dime Savings Bank which will be next to City Point. This is the most beautiful architecture in Brooklyn next to Williamsburg Savings Bank. Next time in the neighborhood, make sure you drop in. Just incredible.

"Cleanslate and dco apparently are the anti-Flatbush corridor contingent. I say this because both commented on the Toren discussion board, as well. and offered their criticism of the area"

Uh, junkman has posted the Toren marketing brochure on this board, on curbed, and a number of other boards.

He's clearly got a very vested interest in making sure the building doesn't flop. Which might be tough given its coming out after the Brooklyn glut and bust.

All I can say is, thats VERY far from the subways and the parts of "downtown brooklyn" they're trying to sell you on. You're basically in the middle of the projects...

Eddie my man. As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about but that is why I love reading your comments. It fulfills my science fiction fix.

My wife and I made the effort to actually time, yes with a stop watch, the time it took to get to the A (Borough Hall) (3 minutes 45 seconds) walking slow) and R ( Dekalb) (1 minute 20 seconds) from the projected entrance of the Toren on Myrtle Avenue. Fact is, it just doesn't get any better than this. Also, both these train stations can accomodate many more passengers. They actually have decent size unlike many other train stations. My wife and I took the R to Atlantic Avenue and switched to the Lexington Avenue for the trip to Manhattan.

Lastly, I live in the Heights on Hicks and walk to the Toren often and it is a comfortable 18 minute walk from my door to the Toren.

I can assure you, once I move in, I'll be going to the same restaurants I have always gone to here in the Heights. Noodle Pudding and Henry's End in particular.

Oh, please, spare me your junk, Junkman.

I've been to the place, have you? You wrote such long paragraphs, I don't have time to read the whole thing. First of all, what I stated are facts:

1. There is no subway near the area - FACT
2. They offer a shuttle bus that will cross Manhattan Bridge and drop you off a subway line - FACT

And here are more facts:

3. The projects are close. It's pretty much a block away from Oro. No matter what you say, that area is still rough and tumble.
4. The Ratner dev't is already delayed. And no matter how you say you have not mentioned it in your constant touting of the area and the impressive rendering of downtown Brooklyn, you conveniently omit that important information and avoid to discuss it. In simple terms, you are biased and only give your one-sided, all-positive information. Besides the fact that you also add some rumormongering.
5. The economy is tanking so who knows which dev't will flounder and get quashed? I know some dev't looked like crap and ran out of budget. And usually, they start chopping their prices including this one.

I am looking to buy myself and looking around downtown Brooklyn, etc but I decided to sit back for a while because I see no reason to rush like YOU, it's not like the units are actually selling like hot cakes as most real estate agents told me at the beginning of the year. I found out, they're either decreasing their prices, like Forte, or still sitting on the market and looking crappier each day.

For sure, Toren is a dev't I looked at and was considering, but with your overzealousness and obsessiveness I am afraid I'd pass because I'm concerned with people like you sitting on the condo board. I'm someone who'd want little disturbance as possible, and I'm afraid you'd be making a lot of fuss to make sure your unit will double as soon as you close. I don't know what you're capable of, but you sound like trouble, and maybe most of the time you'll do something for everybody's benefit, but I'm afraid there will be a time or two when you'll do something at everybody's expense.

I will try to respond succinctly. I have visited the BridgeView via open house. I agree that the subway is far away from the BridgeView and i said so. "Not sure why anyone would consider living that separated from life forms." I was referring to the Toren when I said that transportation is close by.

Upon completion, in two short years, the area surrounding the Toren will not be rough and tumble. We will just have to agree to disagree on that point. Almost every neighborhood in Manhattan has a project next to it. Why is this any different?

The Ratner Development is not in the immediate area. My interest in Ratner is 80 DeKalb and the Nets stadium which will be built by 2010 or 2011 the latest.

Are far as the economy and prices, I have acknowledged that there will be indeed price cuts on most condo developments in the downtown area primarily because their price points are too high. If you looked at Toren prices psf, you have to acknowledge that they are right in line. This is reflected by contract totals in the first 2 months. (41% contracted for)

Toren's ask prices are increasing not decreasing since start of sales. Apartments lower by floor are asking for more than my initial purchase on 3/29 even though same apartment in same line.

My calculation is that you will not get a cheaper price in the Toren but will elsewhere. Happy hunting. I wanted to live in the Toren. Period. I love my present apartment in the Heights and was not compelled to look elsewhere until the Toren came to market.

Your correct, I am obsessive about the Toren but that will subside in time. I'm promoting it cause I believe in it. Sorry if that offends you. Your psychological profile of me is silly. You don't know me and even though I may appear fanatical about the Toren, I'm fairly level headed and a likable guy. Just ask my wife.

cleanslate, I don't get the paranoia there. I'm not a huge fan of that area as it stands at all, but Junkman's pretty open about his feelings on development there and I completely sympathize with his thoughts, even if I don't 100% agree with his optimism about the location. It's risky - that's why prices are a bit lower than more established neighborhoods. Anyone who buys here will most likely have to have a high tolerance for noise and construction, as well as more patience than the average buyer, but there's a market for that.

bjw2103, a voice of reason. Nothing wrong with disagreeing. Doesn't mean we have to be disagreeable.

I think that's your problem. You're too obsessive right now you cannot distinguish between someone describing another dev't in downtown Brooklyn and Toren. A lot of people must be happy for you imparting your knowledge about Toren and what's happening on that area - but most if not all of them have already bought from Toren. Some people, which may be the minority, are either potential buyers or who knows what they are. The fact of the matter is for someone looking outside who has no vested interest on that building, too much glowing comments about that building and area sound a bit phony esp. if the one giving them has vested interest and the person reading actually has been on that area. So I left you guys in your own bubble and discussion of Toren because it's a hopeless case for me to interject and ask about motives...or to expect to get an objective, impartial comment. I don't really want to burst any bubble, or incite any buyer's remorse.

There are some things that may work for you, and not for me. I'd say Toren is farther from the projects than Oro but the area still does not have a neighborhood. It does not work for me that I'd buy in an area where by the time it's fully flourished, it's time for me to move on. It should be more than a place to see an investment, I'm looking for a home with a neighborhood which I can enjoy while I'm there, not when I am about to leave. In any case, are there actually projects in Brooklyn Heights?

If I miss the boat on Toren and that actually turned out to be the smartest investment in Brooklyn, that's not a spilled milk I'm crying over. I'm happy with my decision to sit back, besides if I'm that close to Manhattan I might as well get a view of it (and I'm not getting that with Toren) and I'm not at all interested with the ameneties (I could live without them). I still feel that 2009 is a long time from now and I've got time to kill. If there's a pressure for other devts to lower their prices, who knows if Toren will be looking like the wise move? In the end, I'm looking to get these - price, neighborhood, subways, space. And I feel no rush to settle and just choose a devt. And I have new devts in my mind that interest me, they're still on the market and I'll let them sit there for a while.

And FYI, you're right I don't know who you are so I'm going with impressions...and that's currently my impression. You could be a nice guy, level-headed and all that, but that's not the vibe I can infer. So while everybody mulls things over, let's bring down the zealousness a notch or two and bring all discussion in the forefront, not just all the impressive plans (because they can falter) but the ones that are being delayed and being dropped (because we know that's happening).

My essay was for babsie02 not you cleanslate. I spent a considerable amount of time putting it together for the purpose of assisting babsie in making a very important decision with her/his money. When one is considering putting down a sizeable portion of their net worth on a condo I feel that it is incumbent upon me to impart whatever knowledge I have about the area in question. I have done a lot of research about this area and felt I had something to offer.

It is alarming how angry you are about my response to a question that doesn't even concern you. Did you initiate this thread?

If babsie02 agrees that my information was disinformation, then I will stand corrected and measure my responses in the future.

Believe it or not, I felt I was offering a service to Babsie02 and your hostility towards me is confusing. What are you so angry?

Did I mislead? Did I not put my bias on the table from the start? If you recall, I even told her to ignore the Toren bias.

My information for babsie02 was not directed towards the Toren but the entire area. Did you read what I wrote? I don't think so. Honestly, I don't understand why you are so bent out of shape.

Hopefully the info I provided helped babsie02 and this off topic nonsense doesn't distract babsie from making the best possible decision for her future.

Well, I don't have to read all your comments, I just have to read this...and that's at the top of your agenda:

"Reading through this thread, I felt compelled to offer a counter argument on behalf of this area (sometimes called Flatbush corridor or generally known as Albee Square. Cleanslate and dco apparently are the anti-Flatbush corridor contingent. I say this because both commented on the Toren discussion board, as well. and offered their criticism of the area. Of course they are entitled to their opinions and generally I welcome differing thoughts when they are based on a thorough knowledge of the area. Both, in my opinion, are very very shortsighted."

I never said anything that was NOT true, but did you just not tell me I was just anti-whatever? And to basically disregard my comments because I'm anti-whatever? And then the discussion once again revolved around Toren. There are three kinds of people giving info here - one coming from someone who has vested interest, one who is also looking to buy possibly in the same area, and some other people who's probably neither. Apparently, your comments should matter the most. Why? Apparently, because we're just anti-whatever when all I've said are nothing but facts while you just bought in that area. Whatever.

You win. I give up.

I'll restrict my opinions to the Toren board. Fact is, I've been wasting too much time writing and not enough reading.

Surely you won't mind my shameless enthusiasm on the Toren board since most of the posters there are drinking the same kool aid as I.

I honestly don't really care one way or another. As I always said, whatever floats your boat. Just don't call me out as being anti-whatever. I just call it as it is. Obviously, I have my own reasons why I haven't bought in that area although I'm interested to live around that area. I've been to most of the dev't there - Oro, Toren, Forte, 189 Bridge - I was not sold with any of them.

Oro - too close to the projects but they have incredible Manhattan views
Toren - no Manhattan views, closer to the subway
Forte - a little bit shabby, but has neighborhood
189 Bridge - too far from the subway, but has cute setup

I'd say among the four of them, Toren maybe my third least favorite, but it's because I'd go with the view first, then established neigborhood. And with 189 Bridge street, subway is very important so it's not even in the running.

Needless to say, I'm looking more in the Boerum Hill/Atlantic Avenue area, Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights. I don't even know what's happening with 166 Montague, they keep delaying that one.

Also, if Forte keeps chopping their prices on those two bedrooms, I wonder if the other new devts will also start chopping prices. Forte has units below 700K now for two bedrooms, I don't think Toren has anything left below 700K. Plus it seems like the one-bedrooms are the ones that get sold pretty easily, and the reasonable two-bedrooms (below 700K). 189 Bridge Street also started chopping prices.

cleanslate,

You know what is really comical? Fact is you and I agree on much more than we disagree. There is no question that prices will decline on many new developments. If anywhere but, you know where, I would have same strategy as you. When I visited BellTel, they asked me to make an offer. Many of these places are ready to negotiate when you go in. It almost seems that the listed prices are the starting point for negotiation.

Oro, I too loved the views. Thought they were incredible. I wasn't as concerned about the projects though not crazy about it. I really enjoyed my conversation with the sales guy, Jonathan, and went to dinner with him to discuss the Oro in general. My impression was that deals could be made especially with respect to the closing cost, ie transfer tax etc. There is no question they are feeling the pressure.

Why do you say no Manhattan views for the Toren? If you are high enough on the west side you should have great views. The Chase Bank building across the street is only about 12 floors opposite the Toren. If you can afford going up over 25 floors your view should be fantastic. Have not been up there yet so can't say for sure whether there are other buildings blocking a view. I doubt it especially over 30 floors.

Forte has great views but the maintenance was very high. Also not crazy about small bedrooms in one bedrooms.

189 Bridge not even a consideration due to location and high price for what they offered.

Have you looked into 20 Henry? it is right up the block from me and they are working on renovating older portion (Candy Factory) and building new development in open space in back. Renovated portion will be steep but new development may be more reasonable.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/04/from_mints_to_c.php

166 Montague is a beautiful building but will cost probably around $1000 psf. Too much for my taste.

Truth be told, if I had my choice, I'd be living in Richard Meier's On Prospect Park at 1 Grand Army Plaza in Prospect Heights. Love that building and location.

Take care.

Definitely, Richard Meier looks great outside and I've always said so, but I've never been inside because the prices are astronomical and I have not seen them budge yet. Though I think we signed up on the website, but we said one-bedroom and no one contacted us. The neighborhood is pretty cool too, and I did love the arc, the museum, the library, the garden, etc., etc. And the area looks so amazing at night.

Actually, 166 Montague did start pre-sales but I think it was a bit premature. The one-bedrooms were going for 675K and ranges from 700+ to 800+ sq ft, then somehow they halted it? They were predicting late last year it would fetch around 1000 to 1200 psf, and it's one of those buildings that's highly anticipated. So it seemed price properly relative to other new devts. The "catch" is the fact that you'll spend around $1500 in maintenance and taxes monthly. There is no tax abatement because it's not really new devt.

Toren is quite expensive once you get up high there, unlike Oro, where you can find a one-bedroom with the whole Manhattan view and it's still reasonable, plus their rooftop is actually up there on the top. I was pumped and we did think about it for days, but we had a lot of reservations about the subway and the area (with the projects). Unfortunately, the reason we want to be in downtown Brooklyn is because we work in Manhattan and we tend to work late, so we want a shorter commute but the neighborhood plays a big factor also. It seems a bit deserted right now during the night, and that can be shady, though in a few years it might change. Still those few years without a neighborhood and not feeling safe is a big deal for us.

There are probably few devts where we'd say we'll wait till Spring/Summer 2009 because we're more looking for something that's ready this year. That's why I feel like there is no rush to buy while prices are falling down for devt that will complete next year, might as well wait up till the last minute if we'll end up waiting it out. Same thing with Forte, I cannot imagine buying earlier this year, and see prices suddenly falling down, and real down for that matter.

So we're pretty much left with some devts around Atlantic Ave area, some thing we'd like to check out in Park Slope (like Crest and The Heritage) and Brooklyn Heights (which they pretty much only have 166 Montague and $1500 is a little bit high up there). Atlantic Ave is getting some stiff competition from the high-rise buildings, and I still see some units not moving, so we're willing to let the summer go and check them out again during fall/winter and see if anything changes.

Your strategy is very sound. If it wasn't for the Tor....., I'd be doing exactly the same thing. Both of us were in same position looking for one bedroom close to financial district in Brooklyn.

I'll keep my eye out and if I see or hear of anything of interest I'll let you know.

If I can make one suggestion, if you have the time (I'm retired so I got a ton of time) it pays to talk to sales agents in the buildings and low ball them. The prices you see advertised, in some cases, are merely the start of the negotiation (many times for reduction in closing cost). Another words, your ideal one bedroom may be available right now from a panicky agent, though I agree they may be more panicky in a few months. I have attached a link that i enjoy reading. You probably have read it already. If not, go to article entitled "Market Report: Transition To A Buyers Market" May 1st, 2007. July-Sept may be a good time to intensify search.

http://www.urbandigs.com/buying_a_condo/

Lastly, if you were close on the Oro, might want to give Jonathan (sales rep) a call and tell him you are a friend of mine (Karl) and just shoot the bull. He is a very aggressive sales guy and loves to talk shop. Who knows, he may have some power to negotiate from the developer. He hinted as much to me before I told him I signed contract with Tor... At worse, he can provide tons of info about safety of the neighborhood. He lives in the Toy Factory behind the Oro. When I got a tour of the Oro, Jonathan was kind enough to include a tour of his bachelor pad. Truth is, he has a steady girlfriend that works in the Wall Street area.

Take care,

You can try and rename Flatbush but it's still packed with projects....with the market going downhill areas such as Flatbush will go down and fast

Julia, too bad all the developers that are investing billions in this area didn't have you to advise them. They, like me, have sunk cost in the area.

I wonder what we all were thinking. Obviously the Ingersoll Projects are right there on Myrtle and Flatbush. No secret. No deception.

You would think that all these developers (Oro I & II, BFC's Toren, Catman (and he wants to run for Mayor), Avalon Bay Luxury Rentals, City Point and Hotel chains like the Hampton Inn, Hilton, Loft, Indigo Bay and Marriott would have realized that the projects were there. You would think that they have surveyors and appraisal departments that look at an area before committing millions. Damn, even Ratner building that thing called the MetroTech right across the street. He must be losing his shirt. What is NYU thinking, merging with Tech. They were stupid enough to think that they got a land steal in this area. The projects are across the street. LIU, is ok though, they have a few blocks of distance and great secuity. Ever try to get on that campus. Tight security. I had a suit on and politely asked to go on campus for a minute and they said "take a hike."

Hopefully we can "all get along" and make the best of a bad situation.

University Condos only one block away. Are they having problems? Has anybody been killed in this area other than a neighborhood drug dealer? I don't know just asking.

I hope junkman is correct and I'm wrong...i just don't see it.

> Julia, too bad all the developers that are investing billions in this area

And banks sunk billions into sub-prime, too. And dot-bombs.
Those turned out well, didn't they?

Its called a GLUT. 50% of new Brooklyn condos are unsold (going back to 2006). There always have to be a few idiots at the end of the cycle...

> You would think that they have surveyors and appraisal departments that look at an area before
> committing millions.

Yes, APPRAISERS will save the day. They will protect us. Oh my god, those were the most fradulent part of subprime....

> Damn, even Ratner building that thing called the MetroTech right across the street.

Yes, facing AWAY from the projects. A great big fuck you to the other side of flatbush.

Rationalize all you want, the Brooklyn glut has already hit.

EddieWilson,

Not that I don't believe you, but can you post hard facts to your "50% of new Brooklyn condos are unsold" statement?

Toren is already 50% sold (in contract), so even if you can prove your statement (which I'm highly dubious of), it goes to show that applying general statements to specific properties is just plain silly.

At the end of the day, where ever you end up buying - Toren, Oro, Forte, One Hanson - it all comes down to time. How long do you expect to live there? If your going to be there a few years and then pull up stakes, no way are you making money - you'll be lucky to break even. Say what you want about Flatbush Avenue, in 5 to 10 years it won't be the same, period. Glut or no glut, this area is going to appreciate.

Why are people worried about making money? You are buying a place to live.

My view on this area is it isn't quite livable.

> Not that I don't believe you, but can you post hard facts to your "50% of new Brooklyn condos are
> unsold" statement?

Crain's, about 4 weeks ago... based off tracking of the brooklyn partnership (local commerce group). They tracked specific building construction and offerings...

> Toren is already 50% sold (in contract), so even if you can prove your statement (which I'm highly
> dubious of), it goes to show that applying general statements to specific properties is just plain > silly.

Your assessment of what I wrote is silly. I noted that the market is a glut, not that there is a glut in a particular building. If you don't think that has an effect on all buildings, particularly the ones near the center of the gult, then you are being silly. Not to mention, 50% in contract is a LONG way from being sold...

50% in contract is 50% of the way to being sold. glass half full

Actually, given that not everything in contract closes, isn't that more like 35% on the way to being sold? And thats only if they're even being truthful...

Here's a lesson on geography: most of the new developments mentioned (Oro, Toren, Avalon) are sandwiched between projects. I personally would be afraid to even walk during the day time, let's not even consider the night. So no matter how wonderful these buildings are, they are still next to the projects. So stop fooling yourself by spamming these blogs. If you purchased a unit at these buildings, you have obviously lost out.

P.S. I just read on the Brownstoner that Toren has affordable housing. I would not pay $600,000 to live in a building that has section 8 housing in it.

dexterdee.

You are a total idiot. To even start to respond to your dumb comments would be a complete waste of time. You obviously have no concept of reality and should be looking for housing on Mars.

Wow, someone is definitely a little sensitive about this building... but you should tone down the insults.

My goodness, Junkman! You must have written a thousand words on this thread. Brevity is the soul of wit, someone wise once said.

Yes I'm sensitive to totally inane comments that are so divorced from reality that it becomes obnoxious.

Generally, if you look at my previous thousands words of discussion, I am anything but insulting, but Dexter hasn't got a clue.

A minimum of homework by "Dexter the jester" would reveal that "affordable" apartments are market rate but just on lower floors, thereby making them affordable. Another words, a one bedroom of 738 square feet that is lottery protected, is going for 455K as opposed to 522K on the 10th floor. Hence, the word affordable. It has been mentioned ad nauseam, that the lottery protected apartments were working off a maximum salary of $168,000. Unless you live in most wealthy county in the United States, which I believe is Loudoun County with a median salary of around $100,000, $168,000 is anything but Section 8.

To say that they are Section 8 is, let me think of an appropriate characterization, nah, I'll repeat, just plain idiotic. nyc10022, please provide a more appropriate term?

Maybe you have no problem with such nonsensical comments but I do. What should I have said, Mr. Dexter, I think you may have been mistaken, lower apartments are not section 8 but market value. How can you have an intelligent discussion when someone starts off with total absurdity. Let's get real.

Junkman,

I just read all this thread and found that you seem to be expert in this downtown neighborhood. However, you wrote all these before the financial crisis. What's your comment now about this neighborhood?

SeaHawk.