Gut Reno and Customization

Thoughts any one? Thank you.

For most people, the worst thing you can do to them is give them too many choices. As a sales trainer I have tried to tell salespeople not to give open ended choices, but to limit it to 2 or 3. Like, when making an appointment ask "which is better for you? 2PM tomorrow or 4PM Thursday" as opposed to "So when would you like to see it?"

Near where I grew up there was a pizza place where whenever someone asked for a soda the counter guy would ask "Big or large?" and everyone would think for a few and go "Uhhhh... big" or "Uhhhh... large". In the years that I heard him ask this question I was the only one who I ever heard say "Isn't that the same thing?" (and got a free soda as a reward).

30, What you are saying makes a lot of sense. However, in my limited experience, architects take pride in giving their customer too many choices to prove their worth without thinking about cost.

Any many are billing by the hour with a cap. So they have an incentive to spend more time.

I think people who want simplicity don't buy places to gut. They either buy new construction or a place that is already (mostly) to their liking.

I'm on my second gut renovation now. The first was about five years ago. Considering the hassle required, I definitely spend plenty of waking hours making sure every last detail is exactly to my liking, and it's not that hard to have a feel for costs along the way.

With respect to architects, if anything mine is relatively hands-off during the design process... she's good with the big picture for things like flow and space utilization and code requirements, but prefers to farm out details for like kitchens, lighting, etc.

If you don't have very strong preferences, you can always pay more to have other people worry about your gut reno. Just know that it may not go exactly the way you want it, and you may not even notice, or notice in time to get it redone.

flarf, is your architect also the designer? Does she charge a percentage of the total project cost?

When we interviewed the architects, one is very pleasant and said their firm is very design-oriented. They'd also handle the contractor bidding process etc. I think if we went with them we'll have less stress, but still I didn't think the 20% fee would be worth it. This percentage fee structure is a conflict of interest in my opinion.

We ended up going with a flat-fee architect and did the design with the designer from the GC -- I actually did much of the design about the placement of fixtures. She gave sound advice on tile selection, color coordination, etc.

My architect bills by the hour.

My wife heads up the design. There are plenty of experts. We're using a new kitchen firm and lighting designer this time but almost everything else (tile, stone, wood floors, moldings, bath fixtures, etc.) is coming from the same suppliers we used last time.

Flarf, Who do you use for Kitchen? Thanks.

When I did an extremely extensive renovation on my personal apartment I probably spent 200 hours just choosing/shopping for the mouldings.

I know the moldings is a lot of work. Fortunately for the apartment we live in, we had some existing moldings which our contractor custom matched. For doors, I was lucky to discover trustile and have them match the oversized doors including moldings. Needless to say, it took them a long time alongwith laying the herringbone floor without any border.

I also asked for no borders for my chevron floor in the living room. I think borders will make a room look smaller and are not for NYC-sized apartments.

Going back to your original question, I had a pretty good sense of the cost for gut reno all along -- though it's still adjusted upwards a few times.

At first I used the $xxx/sqft estimate as a guideline. Then contractors I talked to gave me rough ballpark numbers. Among the three GCs (all of which are design-build firms that could have taken care of the architect as well, but we used our own architect to avoid conflict of interest) who gave us detailed proposals, two quoted the labor and rough mats only as we requested. The other quoted everything, down to the types of doors (TruStile basic model). The owner of the last firm told me that they handled renovations for clients who are away. I didn't use them in the end, but they could be a good fit for the home buyer you described. Take the proposal, change a few things, pay and come back in a few months.

There are so many different ways to undertake a complete gut renovation.

I do not think there is a norm, some people hire an architect and choose all their own materials (some take 200 hours picking out moldings and some take 10 minutes) There are some who choose to hire an architect who either is a designer or has a designer on staff that can handle all your needs, there are some who hire an architect and a separate designer. There is no right or wrong.

Just my personal opinion, but I HATE when there are no borders on wood floors, especially in pre-war Apartments - it screams to me "not original/period renovation".

I prefer no borders even though there are more expensive to install.

Then I also like mix of old and new if done right.

Nothing in my reno is that original anyway. I did't like the parquet floor or the nondescript fireplace mantel or the old tub.

I love the prewar building for its location, its facade, its floor plan where every room has a window, including kitchen and bathrooms. But in the gut reno I made the interior exactly to my liking, which is quite eclectic.

The reno is also a journey of discovering my true taste. I used to admire those dark, ornate, traditional kitchen cabinets shown on magazines, but when it comes down to MY kitchen I wanted white cabinets with straight lines everywhere. I also didn't know I like mid-century modern a lot when it comes to furnitures.

The bigger the rooms, the more floor borders make sense. The taller the ceilings, the more crown and picture moldings make sense.

I understand why someone would want to upgrade appliances and fixtures in a pre-war but I am hesitant to demolish walls as I think classic pre-war layouts should be preserved. I love separate dining rooms, maid's rooms, kitchen toilets, galleries and butler's kitchens. It's a blast from the past!

Kitchen and toilets with smell?? If I were to say what I find the strangest decision about prewar layout, this is it. Perhaps some one knows the rationale to mix food with other odors.

"Kitchen and toilets with smell??" Well, for the original pre-war tenant, it was the cook who did the cooking not the tenant so it made sense. And today, it's a great feature for those catered dinner parties. My dining room actually has a call buzzer on the floor to order the next course. No need to even go into the kitchen back then.

I still do not get the rationale. How can you have food and poop smell in the same place?

The rationale is that cooks enter through the service side and stay in the kitchen. It's only the cook who smells anything but why would a toilet inside an enclosed water closet cause a stink?

When you open the door of the toilet. If there are two cooks, one just used the toilet and the other one opened the kitchen door and the guests in the dining room smell something which is not cooking smell. I saw an apartment in park avenue south where the power room door opened in the living room and they were having trouble selling it.

Here is the link. It is dining room. Terrible mistake in my opinion.

https://streeteasy.com/building/400-park-avenue-south-new_york/24c

I would be willing to bet that that dining room started off Life as a bedroom - at least in concept. Between the room proportions and the fact that it's a full bathroom - not a powder room - plus the fact that you would have to walk practically through the living room with the food to get there. In addition we're certainly not talking about a "pre-war layout" with this one.

Not sure it was ever a bedroom given there is no closet. Agree it's very weird.

30, It is a great observation. Makes sense.